Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

people should stop really stop spreading this western idealism/democracy in all elements of life. What is the really priority of the Armenian race is to reproduce. Look at europe, the birth rate is extremely low while that of turks and other muslims is skyrocketing. If we don't dramatically increase our birth rate similar thing will happen to us. Already, in Artsakh incentives are given to couples who have more than 5 children (apartment, money, etc). If we get caught up upon women's rights, women liberation, this and that, we can't achieve this very necessary task. After education and after finding a good partner Armenian women need to reproduce to add fast to the Armenian race so we do not die out.

What you are reproducing is as important as reproducing. I dont want Armenia to be full of racist/sexist people. I want a homeland i can be proud of not ashamed.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Let my underpowered brain explain this to you. First off, 5 points is not much... 2nd that difference can be easily understood and explained if you understood what IQ tests measure.
It is related to the reason why IQ is constantly rising and why these tests have to be renormed every few years. They measure abstract thinking above other things. That kind of thinking is learned, which is why IQ is rising. Fifty years ago, this kind of thought was not valued and it was not taught. So, your IQ on these tests would be higher than that of your parents, but it is not because you are smarter per se. So, a slight difference on average (assuming there is of course) can be explained by this and so can the difference at 155 level as well. Further, when you get to IQs of 155 you're talking about the 99.99th or so percentile, thus we're talking about a very very small group of people.

I never said you have an underpowered brain, but if you insist....

These researchers don't sound very credible and I have not yet looked up the article (not yet published) nor their research histories, but I will. The reason, is they make some mistakes such as the explanation according to brain size. That would not explain much variation because the number of dendtritic connections is far more important than sheer volume. Further, British Journal of Psychology is not a highly ranked journal and people try to publish in the best journal they can get their work published in, so this already makes me skeptical, but I will look up their study and go over their methodology with a fine-toothed comb.

Great job, discredit the researchers to discredit their research. Straw-man argument.....???

The other article you posted about the differences in number of neurons in the limbic system, particularly the amygdala is irrelevant. That doesn't have implications for intelligence. That just shows that yes, men and women are different (which I said previously), but different does not mean better or worse.

Why is it irrelevant and why the difference does not matter? But wait, differences bring fourth advantages and disadvantages, if you assume women and men are different then you acknowledge the fact there will be things that would bring disadvantage to women compared to men, and vice-versa. Wouldn't this make equality impossible...? Unless your kind of equality is something else....?

Allowing women into politics, government, and the military, is hardly playing games with culture.

Ok, let me rephrase. Armenia has neither the resources nor the population to carry out experiments with cultural revolutions...

I did read it. And if you had bothered to read my post carefully you would have noticed that I said IF women can manage both, they should go for it.

Again, you didn't get what I said. The story was meant to illustrate that in order for women to gain exactly the same rights as men, they should have exactly the same responsibilities.

Quit being so defensive. Not everything is a veiled insult toward you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZmCJUSC6g

You described attributes and attributed those to pig-heads. Attributes that Haykakan has been trying hard to put my name on.

There's your ego again... You do realize my post was not solely directed at you right?

Nothing wrong with having an ego, but you did quote my name, commented on my "anecdote" and proceeded with your own tangent. Seems like your post was a semi-direct reply to mine. You could make it more clear so as to avoid more confusion.

Besides, I didn't imply that anyone thought women should be simple-minded baby making machines.

Sure you did. Forget your own posts?

We don't need to restrict women to the home guys. They can contribute valuable things to society

Since no one has said anything like that, it's only natural you assumed someone here thinks like that.

My crazy ego? You shared an anecdote and I did the same. How is your example about your friend's uncle relevant and worthy, but my example is not? The fact that in the 6 years I've been on this forum, I haven't said these things should be a testament to the fact that my intent was not in the least bit to promote myself or stroke my ego.

An anecdote...? I guess your accomplishments were an anecdote like my fictional story, and not self-promotion...? OK, if you say so. At least you're honest.

Armenian culture produces better parents then? Shall we talk about child abuse? How about the attitudes toward disabilities that leads parents to abandon as orphans their children over something so simple and easily corrected as a cleft palate?

Sources please. I know for a fact that Armenian parents don't produce nearly as many bastard kids per capita as American parents (It's over 35% in America). Lets not even start with crack-babies, women with children from multiple fathers, and the crazy abortion rates. Something just says many American women don't want to know responsibilities. Armenian parents are on a different level.

And by child abuse do you mean a woman that chops up her kids in a bathtub, or a man that kills his whole family because his wife decides to divorce him and take away his kids? Don't think that happens in Armenia.

Children with disabilities is an issue for another discussion. Please, provide a reference supporting your claims. I have never heard of that before, I am sure there may have been isolated cases, but it's not a problem in Armenia.

You didn't say that women shouldn't have careers and praise your friend's uncle for not allowing his sister to work?

No, I didn't say that. I said his mother decided it was better for his son if his mother was around him more, and his uncle decided he needs to support his sister so she can better take care of her son.

However yet again, not everything is a reply to your comments.

Then be more specific as I cannot read your mind.

Okay, not that we've established that not everything I say is directed to you, let us learn something different. Not everything posted must for the purpose of disputing a point that has already been made. People can actually post new things that have to do with the general subject of the thread.

The general subject of the thread was NOT a discussion about whether women should be kept uneducated, inactive and used for home duties, but most of your post simply argued against those points.

And lastly, I was respectful in my initial comment and you replied to me in a belligerent and condescending tone.

Belligerent and condescending..? Big words, why not stop hiding behind fancy words and just come out and call me "hostile and arrogant."

I suggest you rethink that approach or you won't last long here. You can make your points without talking to people that way.

Please, your Highness, don't make me go. I dooon't waaant tooo gooo.
I see nothing wrong with my approach, but I appreciate the fact that you give me your opinion.

As you have seen by the end of this post since I did it to you, it's not very nice.

I think it's fun to put a bit of your own person into an argument. You didn't offend me in any way. I always find it amusing to see how women can get creative with me when the issue of feminism comes up. Trust me, compared to other women you've so far acted like an angel, so to quote Ali-G, "Respect"

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Well i am glad atleast one woman came out in her own defence finely. Levon you have a lot to learn along with the other racist/sexists here. I dont think it is ever too late for people to change so i hope atleast some of you will. Instead of focusing on differences (the favorit passtime of both racists and sexists) it is much more productive to remember what we all have in comon.

WOW, it ALL makes sense. Looks like you grow up in the USA, no wonder you never learned that if you're a man, don't cuss another man unless it's to his face. Well, in the "old country" that's the very first thing you learn. I am really sorry you never had to opportunity to learn that first hand.

I dont think it is ever too late for people to change so i hope atleast some of you will.

Great idea. You can follow your advice then tells us all the secrets of how to change.

My father died rather young and my mother supported me and my sister because my dad did everything he could to make sure she achieved her potential. When my mom said she was studying to become a doctor in the USA-the hetamnats armenian houswives laughed at her but she did it because my father who was a surgeon in the old country worked his ass off in a factory so she could pass her exams and get her license. When my mom got her license the hetamnats housewives said ooo she is a doctor now so she will now leave her husband. Again they were wrong as most ignorent people usually are.

I guess you really hate housewives. Guess your a "sexist" as well, since the majority of the worlds female population are housewives.

I found it rather disturbing even as a child that they thought this way but it is a good example of what ignorence does to people. Those ladies had lived in the usa a full 20 years before my mom got there and they still didnt know how to write a chek or drive a car yet here was my mom a partner in a successful medical practice.

Well, women who can get others to do everything for them are just as smart as women who do everything for themselves. It's just the former requires more effort in seduction and cunning. Nothing wrong with that, after all, the foundation of a successful business is to hire people to do stuff for you, pay the much less than the profit they bring for your company and keep the rest for yourself.
So in a sense, those "ignorant housewives" very like very successful businessmen.

I can see where people get some of the bad ideas about women from, many women do act like what levon describes. When i was young i went to all the agbu/ayf events, i was a athelete so i played in the olympics and basketball/softball tournaments for the detroit teams. At these parties i tried to meet young armenian women but this was the dialogue me-"hi what is your name?" girl-"my name is "whatever name you wana insert" what do you do?" -me-"I am a sophomore in U of M" after that some just walked away without even saying anything while others simply made smalltalk then walked away. These girls were looking for a guy who already had it made and werent willing to take a chance on someone even if that person was going to a good school. It is easy to see how the sexist attitudes here can evolve from such experiences and i guess i am lucky since i had better role models as my parents who taught me better.

It was not easy or quick but i did eventually find the right woman for me. I supported us while she got her master degree and now she is doing the same while i get mine. I still work but business has been horrible last couple years and its hard going to school and running a business at the same time plus being a father and a husband. Life is not always predictable so it is good to be prepaired. Should anything happen to me or my wife we know that the surviving spouse will not only take care of her/himself but the childeren as well. Had my father not been supportive of my mothers career i dought my sister and i would have gotten the education we have and no one really knows what would have happened to our family.

I think any man who will ever want to start a family cannot have bad attitudes towards woman as only a lunatic would let someone he hates raise his children. I don't think Armenian men are lunatics. Do you..?

Looks like you approached those women assuming they found your intellect attractive. Had you not tried to hide your true intention (which was most certainly fornication) you might have enjoyed more success.

I had a few similar experiences. But I didn't develop negative attitudes, I just changed my approach. Don't worry, my ideas don't come from any female shortages. I've been married for two years. And funny enough, I'm paying for her master's degree, but I've made it clear to her. When we have kids, she'll quit playing career girl until our children are old enough to form their own opinions, before then I entrust her with culturing them with good, solid family values.

I think you immediately assume that family values mean women cannot have any skills nor brains. That's American feminazi b.s for you. Well, it's never too late for people to change.

--
On a side note:

I'm glad you've found a good balance in your family, that's great. This is an honest compliment as marriage and family are the most important decisions a man can make, as it give him children or destroys his entire life. One area of life where mistakes aren't tolerated.

The point is women can serve their families better if they are empowered and there is no reason to place limitations on them. Just like anyone else there are good and bad women and if you encounter the bad ones just remind yoourself that there are good ones out there to and keep looking. One of the good things about the soviet union was that decent education was available to all including women-thats why many women from Armenia are educated and our country needs them to be as productive as they can be.

Empowering women has many different meanings depending on the feminist in question. If by empowering you mean the ability to work, then don't worry, no one in Armenia keeps women from doing that; however, there are many other meanings of empowered that I find disgusting in a woman. Go figure.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Children with disabilities is an issue for another discussion. Please, provide a reference supporting your claims. I have never heard of that before, I am sure there may have been isolated cases, but it's not a problem in Armenia.

Sadly I have heard of these cases as well and it is saddening because many of these kids are mentally sharp. In fact, there's an orphanage in Gyumri (Zatik orphanage) just for these kinds of children who are abandoned by their families because of their physical or mental disabilities. Here are pictures of some of these kids at this orphanage.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Levon i think we should resume this conversation after your wife gets her degree. As for
" those "ignorant housewives", no they couldnt run a business because they dont know how to write a chek or ride a car.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Sadly I have heard of these cases as well and it is saddening because many of these kids are mentally sharp. In fact, there's an orphanage in Gyumri (Zatik orphanage) just for these kinds of children who are abandoned by their families because of their physical or mental disabilities. Here are pictures of some of these kids at this orphanage.

Aren't the above isolated cases, as Levon suggested, or it is widespread in Armenia you mean?

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Thanks for the post Federate. I hadn't heard about it before. It's sad I agree, but I don't think it's a big problem (or is it? as I've said I'm ignorant on the subject).

Haykakan, housewives->businessmen is a metaphor. They are smart because they get others to do what they cannot or do not want to (without much added effort after the initial "hook" is in place).

Levon i think we should resume this conversation after your wife gets her degree

My wife's degree wouldn't change my attitude, so I don't know where you're going with that. She is a woman, and I am a man. I lead, she follows. If she likes it not, the door is wide open. My motivation of getting with her was to start a family, if she doesn't agree with what I feel my family should be, then she's got nothing I see desirable.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

See here is where it annoys me again, you assume that I meant tribal

Here is what you wrote that implied a tribal society

in addition many Pueblo Indians take matrilinical stances and the women's surname is taken

Pueblo Indians are essentially a tribal people.

Before landed property, the woman's role was higher than men as you could always tell who the mom was, but the father was a tricky one in society

This was true in tribal societies before a civilization existed.

we never called ourselves Aztecs as an Empire, we called ourselves Mexica, the Aztecs left Southwest US (AZTLAN!) and moved into the Valley of Mexico, intermarrying with other Nahuatls and Mayans to become the Mexica Empire, which was mostly Nahuatl linguistically, the law stated women were equal to men

Quote from wikipedia
The Mexica (Nahuatl: Mēxihcah, pronounced [meːˈʃiʔkaʔ]) or Mexicans (Spanish: Mexicanos) were an indigenous people of the Valley of Mexico, known today as the rulers of the Aztec empire. The Mexica were a Nahua people who founded their two cities Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco on raised islets in Lake Texcoco around AD 1200. After the rise of the Tenochca Mexica they came to dominate the other Mexica citystate Tlatelolco.

http://www.plu.edu/~schockak/role-wife/home.html

Thanks for the interesting article. It nicely puts that the societies mentioned (Aztec and Mayan) had very traditional family values (very much similar to those in other parts of the world).

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I was going to post something but Siggie posted it with a different wording. I don't see it necessary to repeat certain things. As for me, I would like to maintain a career (doing what I like), take care of babies (if I have any someday) and spend time with my man. You do not get a degree to put it on the shelf and let it be buried by dust… I get a degree to be able to work, to have a presence in the society, to do what I like doing and fulfill my inner (non-material) needs. The moment my career affects my baby or my relationship; I'll put it away, no matter how much I 'earn' or anything. My family would be my absolute priority... And a relationship is based on mutual understanding, respect and love, it's not a matter of who's leading, who's following.
Regarding the chores, as a woman I can tell you, it's so sexy when a man helps the woman do certain stuff every once in a while. It actually brings them closer together, in my opinion.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Here is what you wrote that implied a tribal society



Pueblo Indians are essentially a tribal people.



This was true in tribal societies before a civilization existed.



Quote from wikipedia
The Mexica (Nahuatl: Mēxihcah, pronounced [meːˈʃiʔkaʔ]) or Mexicans (Spanish: Mexicanos) were an indigenous people of the Valley of Mexico, known today as the rulers of the Aztec empire. The Mexica were a Nahua people who founded their two cities Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco on raised islets in Lake Texcoco around AD 1200. After the rise of the Tenochca Mexica they came to dominate the other Mexica citystate Tlatelolco.



Thanks for the interesting article. It nicely puts that the societies mentioned (Aztec and Mayan) had very traditional family values (very much similar to those in other parts of the world).

Wikipedia is incorrect there, we called ourselves Mexica after moving out of Aztlan, Aztec, Aztlan, see the connection, the land was founded by Tenoch and Huitzilopochtli, who named it Tenochtitlan.

The societies were not traditional in your sense if you read, women were free to work any type of job and study what they want. Carefully read before commenting, I don't like to repeat myself