Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Sadly I have heard of these cases as well and it is saddening because many of these kids are mentally sharp. In fact, there's an orphanage in Gyumri (Zatik orphanage) just for these kinds of children who are abandoned by their families because of their physical or mental disabilities. Here are pictures of some of these kids at this orphanage.

For those who spew hatred at soviet times just compare that society-where orphanages werent even needed, to the one today full of abandoned childeren.It will be a loong time before we get that standard of living again in Hayastan if we ever do get it at all.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I never said you have an underpowered brain, but if you insist....

I'd tell you my IQ, but I don't want to brag. Seriously though, let's be civil. I told you I wasn't insulting you with that pigheaded comment (which actually isn't like calling someone a pig at all), so don't insult me.

Great job, discredit the researchers to discredit their research. Straw-man argument.....???

It's not a strawman. If the things they assert in the quotes from the article are not sound, then it makes me wonder what the quality of their research is. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to wonder about. However, notice I said that A,B, and C make me skeptical and I would look at the article when it was published and I did not draw a conclusion about it.

Why is it irrelevant and why the difference does not matter? But wait, differences bring fourth advantages and disadvantages, if you assume women and men are different then you acknowledge the fact there will be things that would bring disadvantage to women compared to men, and vice-versa. Wouldn't this make equality impossible...? Unless your kind of equality is something else....?

You know you had your mind made up to disagree with me and have an attitude about it from the start. You had clashed with others in this thread, but I had not said boo to you and you jumped on me from the start. Why? You shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I believe I was clear, but I will say it again. Equal opportunity! Women should have the opportunity to pursue careers and to do so in the field of their choosing. If they're qualified, they're qualified and their sex is irrelevant.

You may cling to this 5 point difference (again assuming it isn't a spurious finding), but in reality a mere 5 point difference doesn't tell you anything useful about the average man or woman. You can't say with any meaningful confidence that any woman selected at random from the population is less intelligent than any man selected at random. There is just too much overlap in those distributions.

Again, you didn't get what I said. The story was meant to illustrate that in order for women to gain exactly the same rights as men, they should have exactly the same responsibilities.

What responsibilities are those? Does that mean men will also have child rearing responsibilities or does that mean that women must have the same responsibilities that men have, but that men don't need to have the same responsibilities that women have? I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

You described attributes and attributed those to pig-heads. Attributes that Haykakan has been trying hard to put my name on.

That's between you and Haykakan then, but I was not calling you any names.

Nothing wrong with having an ego, but you did quote my name, commented on my "anecdote" and proceeded with your own tangent. Seems like your post was a semi-direct reply to mine. You could make it more clear so as to avoid more confusion.

It's absurd to suggest that I should preface everything I say with a comment about whether it's directed at your or not.

Sure you did. Forget your own posts?

We don't need to restrict women to the home guys. They can contribute valuable things to society

Since no one has said anything like that, it's only natural you assumed someone here thinks like that.

You are reading something into my posts that's not there because you made up your mind that you disagree with everything I say before even reading what I have to say. Way to be objective. What I am saying is regarding the original post and what I have said previously. Giving women opportunities in politics, government, and just any field basically, is good because they can contribute to these fields.
And yes, saying that they shouldn't be in military, government, etc is not the same as saying they shouldn't have a career, and while some may agree that women can have careers and a family, but think they should stay out of some fields, jobs, etc, I do not think that you would deny that there are also some people who think women should not work outside of the home. I do not need to be believe that someone who has posted in this thread has that belief. There are lots of people who read, but don't post and there are more still who happen upon these threads via search engines who are not even members. So, to suggest that I shouldn't say that unless I have evidence that someone here, whatever that encompasses, is absurd.

An anecdote...? I guess your accomplishments were an anecdote like my fictional story, and not self-promotion...? OK, if you say so. At least you're honest.

You didn't know the first thing about me, you should have held off on the judgments.

Sources please. I know for a fact that Armenian parents don't produce nearly as many bastard kids per capita as American parents (It's over 35% in America). Lets not even start with crack-babies, women with children from multiple fathers, and the crazy abortion rates. Something just says many American women don't want to know responsibilities. Armenian parents are on a different level.

And by child abuse do you mean a woman that chops up her kids in a bathtub, or a man that kills his whole family because his wife decides to divorce him and take away his kids? Don't think that happens in Armenia.

Children with disabilities is an issue for another discussion. Please, provide a reference supporting your claims. I have never heard of that before, I am sure there may have been isolated cases, but it's not a problem in Armenia.

Looks it's not necessary to bring up crack heads and such. I am just saying that we cannot pretend that Armenia is without problems. We need to open our eyes. On the whole it may be better, sure, but there are some very shameful things going on still that need fixing. Better than western culture is not necessarily good enough. It doesn't mean that we can use drug addicts and the mentally ill as a comparison and conclude that everything's just rosy in Armenia. It's not. As for the evidence... I believe Fed has addressed that point. There's no report or anything to point to, but there are people who are engaged in charitable endeavors in Armenia who visit these orphanages and are in contact with the staff there who see the parents who give up their children and listen to the reasons they give for doing so. For instance, a common one, is a worry that people will discriminate against their "normal" children if they have a handicapped child at home because they will assume there is something wrong with all of their children. Education about the nature, causes, treatment, etc of disabilities seems to be lacking.
We can't turn a blind eye to these kinds of things and pretend they aren't there. We need to face the fact that they exist in order to start working to correct them.

No, I didn't say that. I said his mother decided it was better for his son if his mother was around him more, and his uncle decided he needs to support his sister so she can better take care of her son.

That's not exactly what you said and I'm not sure how mom being at home more would make him a "man." If the children were school aged, the mom could have worked part-time or something, and the uncle could help out as well and she would still be around. Anyway, you said he didn't "allow" her to work which communicated something than (based on your clarification) what you intended, so this is really a moot point.

Then be more specific as I cannot read your mind.


The general subject of the thread was NOT a discussion about whether women should be kept uneducated, inactive and used for home duties, but most of your post simply argued against those points.

I think I explained above what I meant. I mean that (1) we should rethink some of the gender roles, and that allowing women to depart from them does not mean that they will become depraved people who will not want to have and care for a family and (2) that we can benefit by giving women opportunities in traditionally male dominated fields.

Belligerent and condescending..? Big words, why not stop hiding behind fancy words and just come out and call me "hostile and arrogant."

Belligerent and condescending are not more fancy than hostile or arrogant, they're just shorter. The length of a word is not a gauge of its sophistication. Anyhow, I'm not hiding behind anything. I said what I meant, and despite what you may be inclined to believe, I don't sit here and rewrite things to pack in advanced vocabulary or consult a thesaurus. That's just how I speak and I don't think I have a particularly good vocabulary anyway.

Please, your Highness, don't make me go. I dooon't waaant tooo gooo.
I see nothing wrong with my approach, but I appreciate the fact that you give me your opinion.

I meant that if you take things personally when someone has a different opinion than yours you will react defensively as you did, and it will escalate things and turn into insult hurling. You did this when you read my post, decided I was insulting you, and then implied that I have a big ego, that my post was vacuous and simply an attempt to brag about my accomplishments. And let's not forget the part above where you turned my sarcasm into an opportunity to insult my intelligence. My point was that if this is how you approach the situation when someone expresses an opinion incongruent with yours, you will be drawn to personal insults, which will inevitably lead to being suspended or eventually banned from the forum. So, before getting nasty with me and calling me "your highness" and the like, please take a breath and review the assumptions that lead you down that path because, I assure you, I possess none of those negative qualities or motives which you have ascribed to me. I hope we can start anew, be able to disagree, and still engage in a polite exchange.

I think it's fun to put a bit of your own person into an argument. You didn't offend me in any way. I always find it amusing to see how women can get creative with me when the issue of feminism comes up. Trust me, compared to other women you've so far acted like an angel, so to quote Ali-G, "Respect"

No comment other than to say be careful not to assume I subscribe to an identical set of beliefs that you associate with "feminists" as we have only discussed a couple of things at most.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

WOW, it ALL makes sense. Looks like you grow up in the USA, no wonder you never learned that if you're a man, don't cuss another man unless it's to his face. Well, in the "old country" that's the very first thing you learn. I am really sorry you never had to opportunity to learn that first hand.




Great idea. You can follow your advice then tells us all the secrets of how to change.




I guess you really hate housewives. Guess your a "sexist" as well, since the majority of the worlds female population are housewives.



Well, women who can get others to do everything for them are just as smart as women who do everything for themselves. It's just the former requires more effort in seduction and cunning. Nothing wrong with that, after all, the foundation of a successful business is to hire people to do stuff for you, pay the much less than the profit they bring for your company and keep the rest for yourself.
So in a sense, those "ignorant housewives" very like very successful businessmen.



I think any man who will ever want to start a family cannot have bad attitudes towards woman as only a lunatic would let someone he hates raise his children. I don't think Armenian men are lunatics. Do you..?

Looks like you approached those women assuming they found your intellect attractive. Had you not tried to hide your true intention (which was most certainly fornication) you might have enjoyed more success.

I had a few similar experiences. But I didn't develop negative attitudes, I just changed my approach. Don't worry, my ideas don't come from any female shortages. I've been married for two years. And funny enough, I'm paying for her master's degree, but I've made it clear to her. When we have kids, she'll quit playing career girl until our children are old enough to form their own opinions, before then I entrust her with culturing them with good, solid family values.

I think you immediately assume that family values mean women cannot have any skills nor brains. That's American feminazi b.s for you. Well, it's never too late for people to change.

--
On a side note:

I'm glad you've found a good balance in your family, that's great. This is an honest compliment as marriage and family are the most important decisions a man can make, as it give him children or destroys his entire life. One area of life where mistakes aren't tolerated.



Empowering women has many different meanings depending on the feminist in question. If by empowering you mean the ability to work, then don't worry, no one in Armenia keeps women from doing that; however, there are many other meanings of empowered that I find disgusting in a woman. Go figure.

Are you for real? You describe me as a fornicator then say your happy i found balanace. You say you have been married for two years like its some accomplishment. Add another 10 years to that and a 5 yearold kid and i know a lot more about family then you or the rest of the sexist clowns here-and yes you definetly belong in that group. I have no problem saying all of this to your face.

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Are you for real? You describe me as a fornicator then say your happy i found balanace. You say you have been married for two years like its some accomplishment. Add another 10 years to that and a 5 yearold kid and i know a lot more about family then you or the rest of the sexist clowns here-and yes you definetly belong in that group. I have no problem saying all of this to your face.

Dial it down a notch please? Disagree with him, tell him he doesn't know anything about marriage and family yet, but don't call him a clown. Thanks.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Are you for real? You describe me as a fornicator then say your happy i found balanace. You say you have been married for two years like its some accomplishment. Add another 10 years to that and a 5 yearold kid and i know a lot more about family then you or the rest of the sexist clowns here-and yes you definetly belong in that group. I have no problem saying all of this to your face.

Ok, I mistakenly made the assumption that when you approached women you didn't just think about having non-flirtations conversations with them, I'll just assume that you never had any thoughts of that nature when you approached them. My mistake, should have known better.

Call my marriage what you want. Only God can decide how long it will last, and I'll just continue his bidding.

You obviously know more about everything than anyone here, or you so assert.

If you have no problem saying all that to my face, then come and do so, before that please refrain from insults. And I btw, I only take insult when you call me a racist, sexist is fine.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I'd tell you my IQ, but I don't want to brag. Seriously though, let's be civil. I told you I wasn't insulting you with that pigheaded comment (which actually isn't like calling someone a pig at all), so don't insult me.

Just in your previous post you said that the IQ test doesn't mean much, so I guess it won't be bragging.

It's not a strawman. If the things they assert in the quotes from the article are not sound, then it makes me wonder what the quality of their research is. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to wonder about. However, notice I said that A,B, and C make me skeptical and I would look at the article when it was published and I did not draw a conclusion about it.

The things they assert are not sound..? That is I assume solely based on your skepticism, correct?

You know you had your mind made up to disagree with me and have an attitude about it from the start. You had clashed with others in this thread, but I had not said boo to you and you jumped on me from the start. Why? You shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I could make an interesting comment, but I'll be civil and exercise restraint just this time.

I believe I was clear, but I will say it again. Equal opportunity! Women should have the opportunity to pursue careers and to do so in the field of their choosing. If they're qualified, they're qualified and their sex is irrelevant.

No profitable business can afford to say nay to qualified candidates. Armenian businesses and institutions don't have a problem with hiring women, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up.

You may cling to this 5 point difference (again assuming it isn't a spurious finding), but in reality a mere 5 point difference doesn't tell you anything useful about the average man or woman. You can't say with any meaningful confidence that any woman selected at random from the population is less intelligent than any man selected at random. There is just too much overlap in those distributions.

Notice that I have never explicitly or implicitly clung to the 5 point difference. You claimed that men and women have equal intelligence and I pointed you to a study that didn't quite agree with your statement. Make what you want out of it.

What responsibilities are those? Does that mean men will also have child rearing responsibilities or does that mean that women must have the same responsibilities that men have, but that men don't need to have the same responsibilities that women have? I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

I'll make it more clear then. Men are drafted into the army regardless of whether they want to or not. Women can volunteer, but are not drafted; therefore, men have the responsibility of protecting their country, but women have the choice of doing so. Thus, traditionally men have been granted certain rights that women didn't get. Women cannot expect the exact same rights as men until they have the exact same responsibility.

You implied that women have child rearing responsibilities. I think it's more of a choice, but I agree. These responsibilities give women certain advantages that men can never fully attain. For example, a woman always knows that the child is hers, but a man can never be sure (without a DNA test). I'm going to call these advantages reproductive rights.

As long as women, alone, have reproductive rights, things cannot be equal. So while your working hard to get women rights that men have, make sure to also work just as hard to grant men rights that women have.

It's absurd to suggest that I should preface everything I say with a comment about whether it's directed at your or not.

It's not absurd, I've been doing it with every post.

You are reading something into my posts that's not there because you made up your mind that you disagree with everything I say before even reading what I have to say. Way to be objective. What I am saying is regarding the original post and what I have said previously. Giving women opportunities in politics, government, and just any field basically, is good because they can contribute to these fields.

I haven't made up my mind to disagree with you. It just so happens that I disagree with points you bring up.

And yes, saying that they shouldn't be in military, government, etc is not the same as saying they shouldn't have a career, and while some may agree that women can have careers and a family, but think they should stay out of some fields, jobs, etc, I do not think that you would deny that there are also some people who think women should not work outside of the home. I do not need to be believe that someone who has posted in this thread has that belief. There are lots of people who read, but don't post and there are more still who happen upon these threads via search engines who are not even members. So, to suggest that I shouldn't say that unless I have evidence that someone here, whatever that encompasses, is absurd.

If you believe that men are equal to women then women cannot pick and choose the rights that men have and they want, as this would mean they can pick and choose which responsibilities they want and that would be privilege and not equality.

There is either absolute equality or no equality. It's an all or none deal.

If you want to state points (not stated by others) then disagree with those for the general population of the readers of these forums, you're are welcome to start another thread, write things that others think/say in disagreement with you and then rebuke them. Otherwise, you can just state your point of view by saying "It's a good idea to have women participate in things that don't involve housework and child-rearing" rather than saying "I think people who want to limit women to the house are pig-heads" (or something similar)

You didn't know the first thing about me, you should have held off on the judgments.

I only know what you have exposed, and I make my judgments based on that.

Looks it's not necessary to bring up crack heads and such. I am just saying that we cannot pretend that Armenia is without problems. We need to open our eyes. On the whole it may be better, sure, but there are some very shameful things going on still that need fixing. Better than western culture is not necessarily good enough. It doesn't mean that we can use drug addicts and the mentally ill as a comparison and conclude that everything's just rosy in Armenia. It's not.

You're the one that implied that Armenians don't make better parents than the Americans, and now you state that "On the whole it may be better." ......

I never said Armenia is without problems, but merely mentioned that there are elements of Western culture that I despise and elements of Armenian culture that I hold dear and don't want changed.

As for the evidence... I believe Fed has addressed that point.

And I thanked Fed for doing so, but I asked you to present evidence so you don't continue your habit of making statements and presenting them as facts, without providing the proper evidence.

That's not exactly what you said and I'm not sure how mom being at home more would make him a "man." If the children were school aged, the mom could have worked part-time or something, and the uncle could help out as well and she would still be around. Anyway, you said he didn't "allow" her to work which communicated something than (based on your clarification) what you intended, so this is really a moot point.

I'm sure you noticed that I was paraphrasing, but what you don't get is the difference between the culture that raised you and the culture that raised my friend.

I think I explained above what I meant. I mean that (1) we should rethink some of the gender roles, and that allowing women to depart from them does not mean that they will become depraved people who will not want to have and care for a family and (2) that we can benefit by giving women opportunities in traditionally male dominated fields.

And I think we haven't the need to rethink gender roles, because a man acting like a woman and a woman acting like a man are peculiarities that should stay out of Armenia.

Belligerent and condescending are not more fancy than hostile or arrogant, they're just shorter. The length of a word is not a gauge of its sophistication. Anyhow, I'm not hiding behind anything. I said what I meant, and despite what you may be inclined to believe, I don't sit here and rewrite things to pack in advanced vocabulary or consult a thesaurus. That's just how I speak and I don't think I have a particularly good vocabulary anyway.

Well, words that one is much more likely to encounter on Verbal SAT than everyday speech would be fancy words. And to be honest, "Hostile and arrogant" just has that much more of a kick than "Belligerent and condescending", so in my opinion, it's hiding behind fancy words.

I meant that if you take things personally when someone has a different opinion than yours you will react defensively as you did, and it will escalate things and turn into insult hurling.

I think I've been rather calm with almost all of my responses, and I only took it personally when Haykakan called me a racist.

You did this when you read my post, decided I was insulting you, and then implied that I have a big ego, that my post was vacuous and simply an attempt to brag about my accomplishments.

I merely commented on what I read, and what I thought about it. You didn't have to take it to mean anything degrading.

And let's not forget the part above where you turned my sarcasm into an opportunity to insult my intelligence.

I didn't insult your intelligence, I merely countered sarcasm with some more sarcasm.

My point was that if this is how you approach the situation when someone expresses an opinion incongruent with yours, you will be drawn to personal insults, which will inevitably lead to being suspended or eventually banned from the forum.

I reserve the right to post my opinions and arguments freely, and have been rather civil in doing so. If my actions get me banned because some people take them more personally than intended, then so be it.

So, before getting nasty with me and calling me "your highness" and the like

I'm guessing only you may use sarcasm in your speech.

, please take a breath and review the assumptions that lead you down that path because, I assure you, I possess none of those negative qualities or motives which you have ascribed to me.

I only judged you based what you posted. If I wrongly ascribed you (negative) qualities that are not yours, then I'm very happy to be told I'm wrong.

I hope we can start anew, be able to disagree, and still engage in a polite exchange.


No comment other than to say be careful not to assume I subscribe to an identical set of beliefs that you associate with "feminists" as we have only discussed a couple of things at most.

Ok, I'm happy to hear your not a feminist.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Wikipedia is incorrect there, we called ourselves Mexica after moving out of Aztlan, Aztec, Aztlan, see the connection, the land was founded by Tenoch and Huitzilopochtli, who named it Tenochtitlan.

Ok, Wikipedia is incorrect, my mistake. I'm guessing my anthropology teacher was also wrong when he called Tenochtitlan the capital of the Aztec Civilization.

The societies were not traditional in your sense if you read, women were free to work any type of job and study what they want. Carefully read before commenting, I don't like to repeat myself

I don't think you have a clear vision of what my sense of traditional means. Here are some quotes from the article

The father had responsibility to teach their children, especially their sons about warfare and train them for battle. The mother, on the other hand, "has children and suckles them

These aspects of a mother and the way she acted, and played a role in children's life should be paid attention to and duly noted. Not only was this role important for the children's care and raising, it was also important that the daughters see their mother and her actions while growing up so she, herself can emulate her and be a mother, constantly at work

This Mayan wife is giving her husband his gear for battle before he leaves to fight. In comparison, we know that Aztec women probably played a role such as this as well. In many of these societies these types of actions were common. Warfare and battle was necessary for the males, and for the women, another aspect of their lives. It may not have been easy for these woman by any means, despite what specific society we are considering but it was highly valued, and an important part of everyday Aztec lifestyle.

The wife of a man was quite often referred to as -cihuah, "one's woman," or she was sometimes referred to as -namic "one's
spouse,” (Lockhart 1992:74). -Cihuah can be viewed by some as derogatory but to others, it is just more evidence of male
dominance among the Aztecs, and women being a possession among the men.

These statements remind me so much of Armenian traditional values.

[levon]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I would like to maintain a career (doing what I like), take care of babies (if I have any someday) and spend time with my man. You do not get a degree to put it on the shelf and let it be buried by dust… I get a degree to be able to work, to have a presence in the society, to do what I like doing and fulfill my inner (non-material) needs. The moment my career affects my baby or my relationship; I'll put it away, no matter how much I 'earn' or anything. My family would be my absolute priority...

I like your values towards family. But here is a thought. By giving yourself the ability to terminate your career "the moment my career affects my baby or my relationship" you are effectively giving yourself the ability to quit work anytime. Since you didn't mention that the move to quit your job will come from "mutual understanding" between you and your husband, nor whether your husband can stay home instead of you to take care of your baby, I am only going to assume that you are giving yourself the right to quit work any time and have the privilege of being supported by your husband whenever you so wish.

Since you give yourself the right to quit work anytime, it's only natural that your husband will have no say in it; therefore, he himself cannot have the right to quit work anytime, otherwise it would interfere with your right to do so. That is not equality, that is privilege. Which would be fine if you are not a proponent of equal rights. However, since you imply that you agree with Siggie's points, then it's a fair assumption that you, too are a proponent of equal rights.

If this assumption is true, then you correctly demonstrated the moral of the story I posted earlier, as you gained rights without the prior removal of privilege and the addition of responsibilities, and at any point reserve the right to pick and chose between responsibility and privilege.

The privilege I speak of is having a husband to support one whenever one wishes it to be so.

The responsibility I speak of is being a wage slave for the family and not having the luxury of quitting work whenever one wishes.

And the right I speak of, is the right not to consult one's husband before starting work, and as a result gaining the additional right of quitting whenever one wishes (May I say that that's a right that most responsible fathers can never have (except for the wealthy ones))

Haykakan and Siggie, do you now realize that my story had a valid moral behind it, as it can happen to not just those whom you two made the woman of the story to be.

And a relationship is based on mutual understanding, respect and love, it's not a matter of who's leading, who's following.

From what you posted, it would seem that in your case that mutual understanding would be that you reserve the right to quit work anytime you want, and he will be responsible for providing for the family regardless of what his wishes are.

Now, if you are a proponent of traditional family values, then you will need to let your husband take the lead.

Regarding the chores, as a woman I can tell you, it's so sexy when a man helps the woman do certain stuff every once in a while. It actually brings them closer together, in my opinion.

And as a man I can tell you that the things that women find sexy in a man are completely different than the things that they say they find sexy.

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

I like your values towards family. But here is a thought. By giving yourself the ability to terminate your career "the moment my career affects my baby or my relationship" you are effectively giving yourself the ability to quit work anytime. Since you didn't mention that the move to quit your job will come from "mutual understanding" between you and your husband, nor whether your husband can stay home instead of you to take care of your baby, I am only going to assume that you are giving yourself the right to quit work any time and have the privilege of being supported by your husband whenever you so wish.

Quit work because of the well-being of my loved ones, so it does come from 'mutual understanding'...

Since you give yourself the right to quit work anytime, it's only natural that your husband will have no say in it;

No. He will have a say in it. Decisions are made jointly based on your mutual benefits and interests.

therefore, he himself cannot have the right to quit work anytime, otherwise it would interfere with your right to do so.

But why would he want to quit his work? The reason? In my opinion normal men love working and doing what they like to. Having a job, earning money gives them a sense of fulfillment, strength and accomplishment.

That is not equality, that is privilege. Which would be fine if you are not a proponent of equal rights. However, since you imply that you agree with Siggie's points, then it's a fair assumption that you, too are a proponent of equal rights.

I agree with Siggie when she said the folllowing:

There's no reason why it needs to be a choice if women are able to make it work so that neither their career nor their performance as a parent suffer.

If this assumption is true, then you correctly demonstrated the moral of the story I posted earlier, as you gained rights without the prior removal of privilege and the addition of responsibilities, and at any point reserve the right to pick and chose between responsibility and privilege.

The privilege I speak of is having a husband to support one whenever one wishes it to be so.

The responsibility I speak of is being a wage slave for the family and not having the luxury of quitting work whenever one wishes.

And the right I speak of, is the right not to consult one's husband before starting work, and as a result gaining the additional right of quitting whenever one wishes (May I say that that's a right that most responsible fathers can never have (except for the wealthy ones))

Haykakan and Siggie, do you now realize that my story had a valid moral behind it, as it can happen to not just those whom you two made the woman of the story to be.

No, I believe the rights are naturally equal but the moment it starts seriously to affect my relationship, I'd rather sacrifice 'that right' to keep my relationship in a balance. As I said my primary goal to work is not only to earn money but to keep my brain active, contribute in a way and reach a certain psychological fulfillment. What's more women are just so different from each other... For a lot of women it's so hard to work, have babies, take care of them, cook and clean, spend time with their husbands, etc. Obviously women's physical, mental strength, agility and organizing abilities vary greatly from each other but if there are women who can do the task properly, then why deprive them?

From what you posted, it would seem that in your case that mutual understanding would be that you reserve the right to quit work anytime you want, and he will be responsible for providing for the family regardless of what his wishes are.

Or maybe I reserve the right for him to tell me to quit my work based on solid arguments. And I'd rather do so, not to ruin the beautiful relationship.

Now, if you are a proponent of traditional family values, then you will need to let your husband take the lead.

I'm a proponent of beautiful traditional values. I may or may not be 'traditional' but I'm definitely not a 'modern' girl not much in terms of my appearance but my likes, dislikes, my values... I'm afraid to express my views on the issue and talk about my beliefs as it may pass off as 'self-promotion'. Again, the beauty of a relationship lies in the mutual understanding, love, respect, common values and the complementary nature of each partner in its own special way.

And as a man I can tell you that the things that women find sexy in a man are completely different than the things that they say they find sexy.

OK, like what? Women of the same generation can sometimes be very different from each other. Sometimes I find things attractive about men that many women do not even notice or like it...

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Armenian women: should play a bigger role in our economy, politics and military.

Ok, Wikipedia is incorrect, my mistake. I'm guessing my anthropology teacher was also wrong when he called Tenochtitlan the capital of the Aztec Civilization.



I don't think you have a clear vision of what my sense of traditional means. Here are some quotes from the article

The father had responsibility to teach their children, especially their sons about warfare and train them for battle. The mother, on the other hand, "has children and suckles them

These aspects of a mother and the way she acted, and played a role in children's life should be paid attention to and duly noted. Not only was this role important for the children's care and raising, it was also important that the daughters see their mother and her actions while growing up so she, herself can emulate her and be a mother, constantly at work

This Mayan wife is giving her husband his gear for battle before he leaves to fight. In comparison, we know that Aztec women probably played a role such as this as well. In many of these societies these types of actions were common. Warfare and battle was necessary for the males, and for the women, another aspect of their lives. It may not have been easy for these woman by any means, despite what specific society we are considering but it was highly valued, and an important part of everyday Aztec lifestyle.

The wife of a man was quite often referred to as -cihuah, "one's woman," or she was sometimes referred to as -namic "one's
spouse,” (Lockhart 1992:74). -Cihuah can be viewed by some as derogatory but to others, it is just more evidence of male
dominance among the Aztecs, and women being a possession among the men.

These statements remind me so much of Armenian traditional values.

Are you listening? The Aztec Empire is the common name for the Mexican Empire, the Mexica stopped calling themselves Aztec as the demand of Huitzilopochtli, so our old conquerers could not find us, we changed the name to Mexica (could mean navel of the moon, but it refers to the moon reflecting in Tenochtitlan's lake), hence it was called by the Spaniards the Mexican Empire.

Here is the etymology :

Mexico = Empire of the Mexica, as explained above Mexica means people of the reflecting moon in the lake, alternatively you can people of the heavens, whatever sounds best in your opinion. You add -co for land of plently or kingdom, -tlan for land of. Would you like to debate Nahuatl with me now?

Tenochtitlan : Tenoch's land, Tenoch can mean either prickly pear cactus, or stone as the prefix of te- means stone, hence tepetl = mountain, so popocatepetl = smoking mountain.

Also I don't think you carefully read my source either, women COULD if they chose so work, work exactly the same jobs as men and study the same stuff too, there are millions of sources showing this.

Now what I am trying to explain to you is officially, I don't mean socially or religious, women had the right to work, to study and if so choosing stay in that situation without any form of judicial granite. Im not saying in the case of social or religious, yeah there we pretty much mirror Armenians, you won't see me denying that, I mean according to law and state policy.

While the documents have racist dribble and false rumours, maybe you should consult a couple of codices man