Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

[Eddo211]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Persopolis started and was the Admin for one of the biggest anti panturk pages on Facebook -- What are you talking about?

His name was also spelled with an "o" because someone else had taken the correct spelling (persepolis).

Here is Persopolis's FB page ... I chatted with him a lot ...relax. He's a good dude. http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-hate...08849869206769

and who are you, maybe first you should introduce yourself, but if you must know the only problem I had with Perso was that he claims >>ma Armania as kooneh Irania ofdadim<<
get it.

[Armanen]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

and who are you, maybe first you should introduce yourself, but if you must know the only problem I had with Perso was that he claims >>ma Armania as kooneh Irania ofdadim<<
get it.

Same here. Armenians are older than Persians as an ethnic group, but the hard core nationalists among Persians would not want to hear that.

[Surenas]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Same here. Armenians are older than Persians as an ethnic group, but the hard core nationalists among Persians would not want to hear that.

Not entirely true. Persians are much older than the rise of the Persian empire in 550 B.C. The Persians (Pasargade) were just one of the clans of the Achemenidae. Some people even suggest that these Indo-Iranian tribes settled in Iran about 1500. B.C. Herodotus:

The achievement of Deioces [...] was to unite under his rules the peoples of Media - Busae, Parataceni, Struchates, Arizanti, Budii, Magi.

The Persian nation contains a number of tribes [...]: the Pasargadae, Maraphii, and Maspii, upon which all the other tribes are dependent. Of these, the Pasargadae are the most distinguished; they contain the clan of the Achaemenids from which spring the Perseid kings. Other tribes are the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, Germanii, all of which are attached to the soil, the remainder -the Dai, Mardi, Dropici, Sagarti, being nomadic.

[Surenas]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Besides that, I as Iranian don't think Armenians are a branch of the Persians. Persians, or Iranians, are classified as Iranids (race), while Armenians are primarly classified as Armenoids. The difference is that the Persians have a more nordic core, while Armenians not.

Iranids:

Iranid race

The Irano-Afghan race (also Iranid race) was a term used in scientific racism for the populations native to the Iranian plateau. The Irano-Afghan type was classified as belonging to the greater Caucasian race, and was variously associated with either the Nordic or the Mediterranean subtypes, depending on the authority consulted.

Carleton S. Coon in his The Races of Europe classifies the Indo-Afghans and Irano-Afghans as Nordic, describing them as being long-faced, high-headed and nose-hooked. Bertil Lundman by contrast postulates an "Iranid" subtype of his "Eastern Mediterranean" race. Earnest Hooton in 1946 describes the "Iranian Plateau type" as distinct from the Atlanto-Mediterranean one,

particularly in its long, high-bridged, and boldly jutting nasal promontory. It has the same huge dolichocephalic head and massive, usually long face.The great nose may be either straight or convex, more often the latter.

According to Renato Biasutti the type was defined by:

Brunet-white color, very dark hair and eyes, abundant pilosity; medium stature (165), slim body; very long (74) and high head with prominent occiput; long face; large and high nose with root at the level of the forehead, straight or convex spine, strongly curved nostrils (64); full lips, robust chin.

John Lawrence Angel following Coon in 1971 discusses a "Nordic-Iranian type" in the following terms:

D1 lies between Anglo-Saxon and Keltic area norms, and D2 is the earlier pre-Bronze Age Corded form which Coon identifies. Type D3, lighter and more hawk-nosed, is transitional to the Mediterranean type B4 and to type D4 (Iranian), which is the Proto-Iranian of Vallois, Irano-Afghan of others, and Proto-Nordic of Krogman, and which is more linear and more rugged than D3 and has a more tilted chewing plane, more nasal convexity, and deeper occiput. Type D5 approximates Coon's Danubian-Halstatt and successor Central European forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranid_race

Armenoids:

Armenoid race

The Armenoid or Assyroid race in physical anthropology is a subtype of the Caucasian race.

''The countries of the northern part of Western Asia, namely Anatolia (Turkey), Transcaucasia and Mesopotamia (Iraq) are the center of distribution [of the Armenoid Race].''

Carleton S. Coon wrote that the racial type in question is very similar to the Dinaric race; the only difference is that Armenoids have a slightly darker pigmentation, most probably due to racial mixture with the Mediterraneans (who have olive skin) and the Alpines (who have brown skin). He described the Armenoid as a sub-race of the Caucasoid race.

Armenoids were said to be found throughout Eurasia. However, the largest concentrations occurred within Asia Minor, Transcaucasia and Mesopotamia.

Known as the "true" Caucasians, Armenoids were relatively tall, usually with medium to dark brown or black hair, light to medium skin colour, large round eyes that were usually brown; a round, brachycephalic head shape with a straight backing (planocciput) (see Cephalic index), high cheekbones and non-prominent chins. Lips were full, and noses were sometimes aquiline. Large minority of Armenoids have blond hair and blue, green, or hazel eyes.

This racial type was believed to be prevalent among the Armenians, Assyrians, Georgians and Iraqis. It was also an element in Southern Europe. Armenoid was also identified as the dominant type of the indigenous Semitic groups of Syria and Mesopotamia: the ancient Amorites, the modern Assyrians and Chaldeans, the religious minorities of Lebanon and Syria, and the Lebanese and Syrians of mountainous regions were all identified as being of the Armenoid type.

Renato Biasutti described the Armenoid race as having: "Opaque-white skin, brunet hair and eyes, abundant pilosity; medium stature (166), sturdy body build; wide head with rounded occiput (87); very long face, straight and narrow nose (57) with high bridge; thin lips, narrow eye opening."

''It has long been believed by physical anthropologists that the quintessence of Near Eastern brachycephaly is to be found in the Armenians; the racial term Armenoid being named for them. The Armenians have long been established in the territory which is now only partly theirs; they had, before the arrival of the Turks, a powerful kingdom, which covered most of the territory between the Gulf of Alexandretta and the Caucasus.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoid_race

Iranid:



Armenoid:

[Mos]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Not all Armenians are Armenoids, not all Iranians are Iranids. Armenoid is a phenotype found widely in South Caucasus/Anatolia. It is well represented among Armenians, but many Armenians are also of other phenotypes or are of mixed phenotypes (Armenoid+Dinarid), etc. No ethnic group in the world belongs to one phenotype race.

[Surenas]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Not all Armenians are Armenoids, not all Iranians are Iranids. Armenoid is a phenotype found widely in South Caucasus/Anatolia. It is well represented among Armenians, but many Armenians are also of other phenotypes or are of mixed phenotypes (Armenoid+Dinarid), etc. No ethnic group in the world belongs to one phenotype race.

Of course, people are mixed over the centuries and you can't label an entire people on one phenotype, but anthropological these characteristics do fit.

[Mos]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Of course, people are mixed over the centuries and you can't label an entire people on one phenotype, but anthropological these characteristics do fit.

Well it's not accurate to say Armenian = Armenoid. Armenoid phenotype is found among Georgians, Turks, Syrians, Greeks, Sicilians, and so on. But when talking about if Armenians are an "Iranian people" you don't look at phenotypes, but at genetics, which shows we are not an Iranian people, while Kurds for example, are an Iranian people. Phenotype is mostly certain regions have prevalence of certain phenotypes. In Caucasus/Anatolia prevalence of Armenoid/Med phenotypes is higher than in other regions.

[Surenas]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Well it's not accurate to say Armenian = Armenoid. Armenoid phenotype is found among Georgians, Turks, Syrians, Greeks, Sicilians, and so on. But when talking about if Armenians are an "Iranian people" you don't look at phenotypes, but at genetics, which shows we are not an Iranian people, while Kurds for example, are an Iranian people. Phenotype is mostly certain regions have prevalence of certain phenotypes. In Caucasus/Anatolia prevalence of Armenoid/Med phenotypes is higher than in other regions.

Of course Armenoid characteristics are found in quite some areas, like Iranid characteristics are found almost everywhere. But I do think the Armenoid phenotype is primarly found among Armenians. By the way, phenotype is someway correlated with genetics. Kurds are indeed a Iranian people, but quite mixed and different to each other. Iranian Kurds are closer to Persians and other Iranian groups, while Turkish Kurds not.

[Armanen]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Not entirely true. Persians are much older than the rise of the Persian empire in 550 B.C. The Persians (Pasargade) were just one of the clans of the Achemenidae. Some people even suggest that these Indo-Iranian tribes settled in Iran about 1500. B.C. Herodotus:

Before there were cities or civilization in the Iranian plateau, there were already advanced cities in the Armenian Highlands. We can call them proto-Armenians if you like, but the fact remains that the agricultural revolution began in Asia Minor, specifically the eastern part, which is the heartland of the Armenian home.

[Surenas]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Before there were cities or civilization in the Iranian plateau, there were already advanced cities in the Armenian Highlands. We can call them proto-Armenians if you like, but the fact remains that the agricultural revolution began in Asia Minor, specifically the eastern part, which is the heartland of the Armenian home.

It is widely believeds that the agricultural revolution (neolithic) began in Mesopotamia, Sumeria. But lately there are also reports that the first civilizations are started in Iran (jiroft). This civilization is older than the proto-Armenian or the Mestopotamic ones.