Agriculture

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

Verj, you are making a mistake in thinking that I'm advocating we become shepherds! I did say in my earlier post that this should be left to idiots not us! I was making a reference to Londontsi who wanted Armenian shepherds! However the shepherds in the video were all Armenians complaining about the scarcity of meat and the depleted herds. So like it or not, we do have to do some shepherding work, as I don't think some of these guys in remote locations have much choice at this point in time. Again I don't advocate any toorks in Armenia under any conditions. You should speak with Londontsi on this subject matter, please read a few posts before and you will see that I am not a fan of this!



Yes I do know this but I thought that the deforestation mainly came from the Asian Goat not the sheep! You are more versed in this so I will leave the details of this to you. As for nature recovering you might get some vegies to grow but all the wild mountain plants some will never recover as they are very fragile and we may have lost some of this forever.

Ok then, let's all stop justifiying or finding excuses for the lease of our lands to Iran, since the guys who will come will not speak persian, but turkish (at best some will speak kurmanji/kurdish)....

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What makes you sure, that those hovivs are not Yezidi?

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As a matter of fact, this is not only against our National interests, but also against the national interests of Iran..; since at the least, it will create enmity between Iran an the Armenian people..
Soon, our guys will have to take the fedayi clothes, and begin to kill and push out those nomads from their mountain slopes... hiding not from the turkish askars , soviet troops or azari omons, but from our Armenian Armed forces, ordered to protect those 'Iranian' gests... is this really what in the interest of either nations??

[Federate]

Re: Agriculture

I'd like to see some thoughts/opinions on Armenia leasing some land in Syunik to Iran for sheep grazing. Meanwhile, here are Iran's arguments.

Iranian Envoy Promotes Armenian Pasture Lease

Sargis Harutyunyan
Հրապարակված է՝ 12.02.2013

Iran’s ambassador to Armenia defended a possible lease by Iranian sheep and cattle breeders of Armenian mountain pastures on Tuesday amid growing concerns voiced by government critics in Yerevan.

Mohammad Reisi insisted that such an arrangement would hugely benefit the Armenian agricultural sector through a drastic increase in livestock exports to the Islamic Republic.

News of the possible lease of pastures in Armenia’s southeastern Syunik province bordering Iran emerged late last year. The Armenian government confirmed preliminary negotiations on the matter between the provincial administration and authorities in Iran’s East Azerbaijan province.

Surik Khachatrian, the Syunik governor, visited East Azerbaijan for further talks last month. An Armenian non-governmental organization publicized afterwards what it called a draft Armenian-Iranian agreement on the long-term pasture lease.

The document prompted serious concerns from environment protection and opposition groups in Yerevan. They warned of its negative ecological, economic and even political consequences for the country. Some critics denounced the very fact of Armenian territory being rented out to a foreign state.

The Armenian government responded to these concerns with assurances that nothing has been agreed yet. It also promised to ensure transparency in the Armenian-Iranian negotiating process.

Ambassador Reisi likewise denied that the two sides have reached a definitive agreement. “If any document is signed it cannot be kept secret and will certainly have to be approved by the parliaments of the two countries,” he told a news conference.


Armenia -- Iranian Ambassador Mohammad Reisi at a press conference in Yerevan. 12Feb2013
Reisi at the same time voiced strong support for the idea of pasture lease. “When I came to Armenia one of the projects proposed by me was to foster cattle raising in Armenia,” he said. “Armenia is an agricultural country and has a great potential for cattle breeding. Unfortunately, the size of its livestock is not sufficient.”

The Armenian Ministry of Agriculture puts the domestic livestock population at roughly 1.35 million. Sheep account for around half of it.

Reisi claimed that the lease sought by the Iranians would help to quickly raise the number of sheep and cattle in Armenia to 7 million. “Armenia can export 2-3 million sheep to Iran each year,” he said.

Armenian sheep exports to Iran have already risen sharply in the last few years. But they reportedly ground to a half last fall due to the tightening of international economic sanctions against Tehran and the resulting sharp depreciation of the Iranian national currency.

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/24900288.html

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

Verj, you are making a mistake in thinking that I'm advocating we become shepherds! I did say in my earlier post that this should be left to idiots not us! I was making a reference to Londontsi who wanted Armenian shepherds! However the shepherds in the video were all Armenians complaining about the scarcity of meat and the depleted herds. So like it or not, we do have to do some shepherding work, as I don't think some of these guys in remote locations have much choice at this point in time. Again I don't advocate any toorks in Armenia under any conditions. You should speak with Londontsi on this subject matter, please read a few posts before and you will see that I am not a fan of this!

We lost 90% of our country because of this problem.
The only solution that seems secure: no sheep in the mountains, wich means no nomads in the mountains, wich means no turkish internal threat..; Can't you get it?
With a hundred years of security , nature will recover , and hopefully, if we are able to not cut them (wich is of course an other story), big parts of those pastures will be recovered by forests, as they were originally... (just like what happened in all Western Europe since end XIX cent).

Yes I do know this but I thought that the deforestation mainly came from the Asian Goat not the sheep! You are more versed in this so I will leave the details of this to you. As for nature recovering you might get some vegies to grow but all the wild mountain plants some will never recover as they are very fragile and we may have lost some of this forever.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

There is nothing in that report about how much is a real increase in the amount produced. It talks about an increase in THE VALUE of the production, up 10.2%. Given that world food prices have increased everywhere, its value in Armenia will also have gone up.

Unfortunately, statistics are BS,for non initiated readers...
I remember in early 2000-s, a year where because of te draught, tzoren production was near zero.
All villagers got bankrupted all over NKR and most of RA...
Yet statistically, we produced something like 450.000 tons...(a very fantastic number for us, near record) : to understand it, you must have known, that the famous Malatiayi Samo, is the monopolist of wheat import, and he avoided declaring 300.000 tons to the customs... do you get the point?

Yet again, some truth can be found, once decoded.
Reason why I do quote it, and do explain, the sharp dropp of fruit harvest in 2011, and relative recovery to normal in 2012...

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

I do see your point, however I would not go so as to state that it is BS, after all you are referencing the stats yourself.



Very good point, that is why I posted the video. It seems that our own shepherds were the ones who sold all the sheep in the first place. They made a lot of profit too boot, now they are complaining! This has forced the hand of the Armenian government as there are not enough Armenian sheep now. One of the farmers in the video pointed out it's going to take years to recover. So the government has leased the land, and we are now complaining. Now when we put the entire story in context we can see our faults and learn from them. We should not be over zealous in criticizing the Armenian government in this case. Either we are going to make some profit from the grazing contract or we are not. Sadly it's simple, we are going to have to make a choice one way or another. I am not happy with either choice!



Good point, I will combine it with what Verj said and get a clearer picture of the situation. Seems that there are many angles to this sheep business. One thing that is sad is that the very same Armenian shepherds we hold dear in our romantic fantasies are the ones who caused this problem.

Vahram,
I suggest you to take a tour on Armenia's mountains...
The Shepherds do speak Armenian, but 90% or so are Yezidis.

We do not like sheep, and we will never do in the future.
It is a fact, whether you like it or not.

We lost 90% of our country because of this problem.
The only solution that seems secure: no sheep in the mountains, wich means no nomads in the mountains, wich means no turkish internal threat..; Can't you get it?
With a hundred years of security , nature will recover , and hopefully, if we are able to not cut them (wich is of course an other story), big parts of those pastures will be recovered by forests, as they were originally... (just like what happened in all Western Europe since end XIX cent).

I really would love to see Armenian hovivs, but there will never be, at least in this nomadic lifestyle.
It is ethnically/culturally non compatible with our lifestyle, our mindstyle...

The good thing with Yezidis is, that after all, Armenia is a second homeland for them, since they do not have a real Yezidiland next door, and do not cause any real danger of national security.
They are a persecuted minority among kurdish tribes on religious grounds, and they chose Armenia as a safe heaven...
Since these 2 entities are complementary (Armenians/Yezidis), and since the number of Yezidis is under control (no more than 3%), all will be OK....

Turkish or Kurdish nomad tribes (the guys coming from Iran) are evidently an other story.... (you do not seem to get the point on this, in wich case, I will suggest a tour in Adrbadagan's mountains... and you will see if you hear Persian or Turkish...)
All the conflict of Artsakh is rooted on this...
The famous transhumence problem...
I suggest you to read Rupen Ter Minassian's memories...
You will sea what happened in the Erkir, in Artsakh, in Nakhitchevan....
The reason why this damned tribes came to our country, was those pastures.... much more grassy than in Irak or Syria...
If there wasn't that grass, those tribes would have gone elsewhere...

Look at what's happening just now in Javakhk (where the mountains are covered by blue plastic tents made in Turkey..., the tatar shepherds come from occupied Northern Artsakh (Gantzak), via Treghk till Javakhk....

And those bastards do perfectly know how to bribe corrupted 'leaders' in our camp.
You want to find excuses to our Governement, with good heart.
Unfortunately, this is not the case.
The amount we are supposed to earn is just ridiculous... 2,5 Million USD , to jeopardize our National security...;!!!
Plus may be some 10 million in the Pocket of LISKA and his bosses and accomplices (the governor of Syunik, a mafiosi well known in Armenia for his part in plundering hundred of millions worth of mining products (Gold, Copper, Molibdenium, Silver...), with only kopeks remaining as taxes...).

So as a matter of fact, Liska is in no way different, than the soviet era Rayon Secretaries, who welcomed the tatars..., for a couple of million rubles in their pockets...;

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Now, for the sheep sold to Iranians a couple of years back.
First, your tape is outdated, and misrepresents the reality. (as initially there was 'panic' of depletion, as your tape showed)

As a matter of fact, the livestock did not diminish really, it remained rather stable , wich is not a hard job.
If we do not sell anymore, is because the Iranian money got devaluated, and now it seems, they would like to take the pastures, rather than pay us for the production of raw material...

During Soviet years, the livestock of Sheep in RA territory exceeded 2 million ( roughly 75% tatar kept, 20% Yezidi, 5% Armenian...)
In the territory of now NKR, that number must have been approx 1.5 million at least (85% tatar, 15 % Armenian)
Basically, for a "potential", in tatar hands of at least 3.5 million, we are keeping 6-7 hundred thousands (since basically, the sheep do nomadise on the 2 sides of the border NKR/RA between Jermuk/Karvadjar/Kashatagh/Vardenis...

This is exactly where the Iranian ambassador gets his number of 7 million potential..
Of course, in nomadic hands, you could keep that number, but you will eradicate all other agricultural potential from the country in a couple of decades... (just what happened in Western Armenia, where the nomads used to keep more than 30 million sheep, that is halved today, partly because economic reconversion/PKK problems, but essentially, because there is no more grass of same quality...-

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

Agricultural statistic are BS in Armenia.
Specially comparing 2011/2012... since 2011 was a catastrofic year because of the frost... there was virtually no fruit in all Ararat valley.
Compare 2010/2011... and look the sharp decrease...

I do see your point, however I would not go so far as to state that it is BS, after all you are referencing the stats yourself.

The armenian problem. Armenians refuse to do labor intencive work then they complain when someone else is brought in to do it. Just can't please some people.

Very good point, that is why I posted the video. It seems that our own shepherds were the ones who sold all the sheep in the first place. They made a lot of profit too boot, now they are complaining! This has forced the hand of the Armenian government as there are not enough Armenian sheep now. One of the farmers in the video pointed out it's going to take years to recover. So the government has leased the land, and we are now complaining. Now when we put the entire story in context we can see our faults and learn from them. We should not be over zealous in criticizing the Armenian government in this case. Either we are going to make some profit from the grazing contract or we are not. Sadly it's simple, we are going to have to make a choice one way or another. I am not happy with either choice!

There is nothing in that report about how much is a real increase in the amount produced. It talks about an increase in THE VALUE of the production, up 10.2%. Given that world food prices have increased everywhere, its value in Armenia will also have gone up.

Good point, I will combine it with what Verj said and get a clearer picture of the situation. Seems that there are many angles to this sheep business. One thing that is sad is that the very same Armenian shepherds we hold dear in our romantic fantasies are the ones who caused this problem.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Agriculture

Now back to reality! Gross agricultural production totaled AMD 291,5 bln in Jan-July 2012, increasing by 10,2% as compared to the same period of 2011

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/120441/

There is nothing in that report about how much is a real increase in the amount produced. It talks about an increase in THE VALUE of the production, up 10.2%. Given that world food prices have increased everywhere, its value in Armenia will also have gone up.

[Haykakan]

Re: Agriculture

The armenian problem. Armenians refuse to do labor intencive work then they complain when someone else is brought in to do it. Just can't please some people.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Agriculture

Armenia’s sheep exports dropped twofold

Armenia’s sheep exports dropped twofoldFebruary 12, 2013 | 01:24

YEREVAN. – Close to 61,000 sheep were exported from Armenia in 2012, against the 115,000 in the previous year, the State Revenue Committee informs.

In the year past, one sheep was exported with a customs value of $140, whereas this was $105 in 2011. As a result, the total customs value of the sheep that were exported in 2012 made up $8.5 million, against the $12 million in 2011.

Armenia’s sheep are primarily exported to Iran, albeit the Iranian businessmen avoid importing sheep, due to the Iranian national currency’s almost fourfold devaluation, but the export gained momentum again in the last quarter of 2012. Sheep is exported to the United Arab Emirates, too.

Due to the drop in sheep exports, however, the price of sheep meat stabilized at the markets of Armenia’s capital city Yerevan.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

Now back to reality! Gross agricultural production totaled AMD 291,5 bln in Jan-July 2012, increasing by 10,2% as compared to the same period of 2011

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/120441/

Guys, you seem to miss a point:
Armenians, in general, do not like to keep sheep.
This is ethnic compatibility matter.
Keeping sheep is very hard, non gracious life style.
Practically it means nomadic lifestyle, at least 8 months a year. (at least keeping them on a traditional method, that is transhumance grazing, as it is widely practiced in Occupied Western Armenia, RA, NKR, and the rest of the Causasus).
We never did it on a large scale, nor we will do in the future.
Plus, Armenians do not like sheep meat, wich has very poor reputation (smells++), and is associated in our ethnic memory with nomadic tribes of toorks and kurds.
In today's RA, there are virtually no sheep breeders of Armenian ethnicity.
This job is reserved to Yezidis...
And in my humble opinion, if we could form a thousand Armenian hovivs, and make them work in those mountains, they would do a more important job than 5000 soldiers on the frontlines...
A couple of years ago, I was associated in a program to breed a special species of sheep, for the 'purt' (do not know english word), in the mountains of Jermuk...
We could not find a dozen Armenian Hovivs, willing to do this job honestly on long run...
While the job is pretty well paid, very profitable in fact...
You can make a little fortune of it, if you work hard...
The only option were Yezidis....
We have to admit this reality, Armenians will never keep sheep on large scale...

Cattle is an all other matter, and we always did and will do.
The only sheep kept in Armenian villages, are usually kept with cattle..., in small numbers.
After the ousting of tatar nomads in 1989, the number of sheep was down 3 times...
While cattle, pigs, or aydz remained pretty steady...

Our country was colonised in peace times by toorkish nomadic tribes, just in this same scenario... (open grazing space, why do we not let them use, plus they will sell us cheap cheese...).
The story of the installation of nomadic tribes in Western Armenia, for the last 1000 years, is based on this.
Unfortunately the green grass of our mountains always attracted those nomads like a magnet...
Same happened in Eastern Armenia in XVIII-XIX centuries, that's why those kurdish tribes of Northern Iran came in Karvadjar, Kashatagh, Kashunik, Zankezur and Nakhitchevan... (to be transformed into futur azaris...)
It did happen same style during soviet years.
Njdeh had cleared all of Zankezur from tatars, notabely a very famous bandit nest called Keghvatzor (Keghi is a river running from the foots of Zankezur range, overlooking Gaban, to reach Voghtchi river just before Gaban). He burned down 40 villages of nomads, that used to terrorise all of Zankezur's population for more than a hundred years....
During soviet rein, the same tatars returned, on our invitation (not Moskwa pressure, as is widely related now..), to make a profit of our grazing Alpine spaces...
(of course, a handfull of sovkhoz/golhoz bosses, and some rayon chiefs were well bribed)... so all the job done by Njdeh was wasted, for a handfull of moterfukers...
We had to do the job once more in 1988-89.... and with God's blessing, we managed to make them run...
Now, the same 'party' claiming the heritage of Njdeh, is inviting the same nomads in... for the sake of the same kind of MF as was the case in the 30-s...
Back then we had the excuse of soviet rule...
And now what?
In an independent Armenia, we call in our peril and install it happily, just to allow some oligarkh mafiosis to make some money...
That's just the story...
And it is bitterly ironic, that a group of people claiming the heritage of Njdeh, do this suicidal act...

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for Vahram:
Agricultural statistic are BS in Armenia.
Specially comparing 2011/2012... since 2011 was a catastrofic year because of the frost... there was virtually no fruit in all Ararat valley.
Compare 2010/2011... and look the sharp decrease...