Agriculture

[Artashes]

Re: Agriculture

I have no degree in higher formal education. Desspite that , I've tried to understand ( comprehend ) the financial, economic, monetary , etc.
Here is what I came away with ( besides a bad headache ) .
The economics plays out as Haykakan describes .
The reality plays out as Vrej describes .
When I tried to find out the disparity between the two , I came to this conclusion --- money , and the many creative manipulations leave the door WIDE open for fraud .
Those who are in the best position to manipulate " money " do so AT every opportunity they can perceive , and think their intellects are great and their rewards just .
In my opinion, the federal reserve, the IMF, etc, are incideous frauds . Not easy to perceive by the ordinary , or even the educated , but fraudulent all the same.
This monetary fraud , this economic fraud , is pervasive. We are submerged and surrounded by it .
In these contemporary times , everyone has to use it , somewhere , sometime . Can't avoid that .
However , not to recognize the fraudulent nature and machanations in my opinion is a death knoll .
Have a bit more to say but gotta go.
Artashes

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

Wait until this railroad gets going, all these issues will be behind us.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

"My Dear,
As you said you hope....
hope = wish
And it seems you genuinely believe the propaganda/thesis of change... made in turkey. "

Yes i hope and wish but how can anyone say i believe in propaganda of change i don't know. Change is always possible but it is not evident on the governmental level of Turky. I critisize and point out turkish bs as much as you do thus i am no dupe. Reality is the ultimate scoreboard. People can believe what they like but that fact does not make their beliefs real(try explaining this to religious people). The facts should always be studied because when you make decisions you need to know what the opportunity costs of that decision are as well as the benefits.

Exact!
That's why it is so "bizarre", when you declare free trade is beneficial (let alone more beneficial) to us, when all that 'calculus' is based on hope/wish, wich is barely possible.
For me, the good formula (simplified) would be:
"Trade would/could be beneficial for both sides, provided Turkey changes upside down"

[Haykakan]

Re: Agriculture

"My Dear,
As you said you hope....
hope = wish
And it seems you genuinely believe the propaganda/thesis of change... made in turkey. "

Yes i hope and wish but how can anyone say i believe in propaganda of change i don't know. Change is always possible but it is not evident on the governmental level of Turky. I critisize and point out turkish bs as much as you do thus i am no dupe. Reality is the ultimate scoreboard. People can believe what they like but that fact does not make their beliefs real(try explaining this to religious people). The facts should always be studied because when you make decisions you need to know what the opportunity costs of that decision are as well as the benefits.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

Well i disagree that it is wishful thinking and wrong assumptions. This paper dealt with only the economic aspects and there is nothin but facts in it. The two points you talk of are not as much economic issues as much as they are political in nature. I do not deny that turkey is what it is (genocidal maniac with a selective memory/amnesia). I also do not deny that open borders with this entity could benefit Armenia economicaly. There are ways to safegaurd against much of the things you fear but mainly it boils down to motivations on both parts. So long as the two sides are hell bent on eachothers destruction then trade will likely be used as a weapon. A assumtion you make is that the beast cannot change-well change is hard but it is not impossible. Who would have imagined thousends of people protesting the killing of an armenian in Turky? While its genocidal tendencies manifest themselves even now(the killings of elderly women) there are also those who try to fight these things (parliamentary discussion of these killings). There have always been bad and good turks just as there are bad and good in any people. This does not mean the ratio of good and bad people never changes. Education is the best weapon against bigotry but the turkish government works hard to promote bigotry anstead of opposing it. The way Turky acts is typical of imperialists and we have seen that this type of behavior is indeed difficult to change (ie britain, and now usa, and france..). Free trade is an economic issue and will work for anyone who wants to solve economic problems. Should Turky and Armenia one day resolve their significant political diffirences the possibilities from free trade can be realized. One interesting thing about trade is that it brings people togather. Even with closed borders and political ill will we see trade happening between the two countries and plenty of armenian tourists resting on turkish beaches. I hope the turkish state will reconsile with its own past and mend its relations with the armenian people but regardless of this fact turks and armenians will trade anyways and you see this happening every day.

My Dear,
As you said you hope....
hope = wish
And it seems you genuinely believe the propaganda/thesis of change... made in turkey.

[Haykakan]

Re: Agriculture

Well i disagree that it is wishful thinking and wrong assumptions. This paper dealt with only the economic aspects and there is nothin but facts in it. The two points you talk of are not as much economic issues as much as they are political in nature. I do not deny that turkey is what it is (genocidal maniac with a selective memory/amnesia). I also do not deny that open borders with this entity could benefit Armenia economicaly. There are ways to safegaurd against much of the things you fear but mainly it boils down to motivations on both parts. So long as the two sides are hell bent on eachothers destruction then trade will likely be used as a weapon. A assumtion you make is that the beast cannot change-well change is hard but it is not impossible. Who would have imagined thousends of people protesting the killing of an armenian in Turky? While its genocidal tendencies manifest themselves even now(the killings of elderly women) there are also those who try to fight these things (parliamentary discussion of these killings). There have always been bad and good turks just as there are bad and good in any people. This does not mean the ratio of good and bad people never changes. Education is the best weapon against bigotry but the turkish government works hard to promote bigotry anstead of opposing it. The way Turky acts is typical of imperialists and we have seen that this type of behavior is indeed difficult to change (ie britain, and now usa, and france..). Free trade is an economic issue and will work for anyone who wants to solve economic problems. Should Turky and Armenia one day resolve their significant political diffirences the possibilities from free trade can be realized. One interesting thing about trade is that it brings people togather. Even with closed borders and political ill will we see trade happening between the two countries and plenty of armenian tourists resting on turkish beaches. I hope the turkish state will reconsile with its own past and mend its relations with the armenian people but regardless of this fact turks and armenians will trade anyways and you see this happening every day.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

Figgs and potatos are just random examples. Armenia has plenty of comparative advantages over Turky and i bet if you looked hard you may even find absolute advantages in a number of things. Do not underestimate your own peoples ability to compete. We may not have the resources the turks have but we do not need that much to be effective economicaly. Monopolies and corruption hurt a lot to thus Armenia faces many issues but none of these issues mean armenia cannot benefit economicaly by trading.

Ok, let's end this.
All you say is true, in theory, but not for Armenia/turkey.
You trade with partners, not with the very butcher who's sole aim is you disappearance.
The aim is still the same, as long as the Nazi/Ittihadists are in power.
And it will never change, nor CAN Change++
Change would mean END for the very regime.
No regime, specially not one having committed a series of Genocides, commits suicides by will.
Turkey can not change.
It is genetically programed to be what it is...
Only force can change it by braking it, from inside, outside, downside....
It will happen eventually, but as result, we will have something other than Turkey.
In the mean time, it tries very hard make outsiders believe it can change without braking, it is changing, etc... BS we well know.
In its aim, it benefits, often by paying western and russian think thank's, collaboration.
Often Armenians working in those Think Thanks, end up collaborating with it, willy nilly..
Some are "corrupted" in their turn (if they do understand what they do).
If not, they are more dangerous than if were corrupted..

I conclude, that you participated in the elaboration of a paper, based on theories, wishful thinkings, that are based on a series of wrong assumptions, when it comes to real facts, in the specific case?
1- That Turkey CAN be an honest trading partner!!!!?? ( a question I asked you specifically, for 2 or 3 times, but you seam to avoid answering)
2- That Big Powers are interested in bringing Armenia/Turkey together..... (first and the foremost being the US)

[Haykakan]

Re: Agriculture

Figgs and potatos are just random examples. Armenia has plenty of comparative advantages over Turky and i bet if you looked hard you may even find absolute advantages in a number of things. Do not underestimate your own peoples ability to compete. We may not have the resources the turks have but we do not need that much to be effective economicaly. Monopolies and corruption hurt a lot to thus Armenia faces many issues but none of these issues mean armenia cannot benefit economicaly by trading.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

Are figgs and potatos not agricultural products? This concept can be used with all agricultural products and all other products. The economic principles work for everyone who is willing to use them-thus if the will is there yes it will work. Finding the political will is another story. No the relations between Armenia and Turkey are not like those of a couple EU countries but you dont need to be at that level of relations just to trade. The benefits of trade are very much real but the answers to ethical questions are not as simple thus i say yes economicaly relations with Turky make sence for Armenia but politicaly and ethicaly well these are very different issues. Anyways i gota get some sleep-bari gisher.

Bari Kisher

As a matter of fact, just in case:
In real life, when the Georgian marken opened to them in 1999-2000, turkish cheap potatoes in dumping prices ruined the economy of Javakh, main producer of potatoes in Georgian Republic, and hardly hit Lori producers, for whom that market was of major export interest....
So probably, if the border is opened, Lori villagers will be as happy as their Javakhk brothers... something I hope will never happen.

Unfortunately, we do not produce any figs...
We used to, when we had Cilicia .... , and guess who invades world's dried fig market?

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

Are figgs and potatos not agricultural products? This concept can be used with all agricultural products and all other products. The economic principles work for everyone who is willing to use them-thus if the will is there yes it will work. Finding the political will is another story. No the relations between Armenia and Turkey are not like those of a couple EU countries but you dont need to be at that level of relations just to trade. The benefits of trade are very much real but the answers to ethical questions are not as simple thus i say yes economicaly relations with Turky make sence for Armenia but politicaly and ethicaly well these are very different issues. Anyways i gota get some sleep-bari gisher.

This is considered overtime....