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Should Turkey compensate-your thoughts?

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  • #11
    Originally posted by CatWoman
    Why does asking for monetary compensation "make us look bad"? Hasn't Germany been paying Holocaust survivors reparation payments? What makes this any different? And IAmMad, If you think it's hard to prove which Armenians had ancestors killed in the genocide, Turkey can still pay the amount necessary for 1.5 million deaths to Armenian charity groups!
    It just plays into Turkish hands - that they portray Armenians as (stil) sucking their blood...etc....do you really understand how the Turks see this whole thing - why they are so fanatical against it being considered a genocide and why many actually believe trhat it wasn't - that they did no wrong?

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    • #12
      Originally posted by nairi
      Youaremad Everything is possible, even now. We got Artsakh back, why not the rest of Armenia? Americans are invading Iraq as we speak. Why can we not invade so-called "Turkey"? Just saying.
      There is no need to invade. There are other means to wipe out a nation if one really were to wish it - but only if one is clever enough and has the vision and the determination to go through with it....

      Comment

      • #13
        Ok, wino, you convinced us - demonstrate. lol

        I dont want their money personally, but I would love to see them return our land (including whatever monuments of ours were stolen along with it) and to pay to Armenian charities to compensate for the population loss, etc. I dont think that makes us look badly at all. Its very fair.

        If they wanna make us out to be blood suckers, they will (and do!) anyway. Why worry about how they may judge our actions at this point? The damage has been done, and nothing we do can make them reverse it - and so far we dont know of anything to do to make them even admit the Genocide in the first place. We would be losing nothing.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by ArmoBarbi
          Ok, wino, you convinced us - demonstrate. lol

          I dont want their money personally, but I would love to see them return our land (including whatever monuments of ours were stolen along with it) and to pay to Armenian charities to compensate for the population loss, etc. I dont think that makes us look badly at all. Its very fair.

          If they wanna make us out to be blood suckers, they will (and do!) anyway. Why worry about how they may judge our actions at this point? The damage has been done, and nothing we do can make them reverse it - and so far we dont know of anything to do to make them even admit the Genocide in the first place. We would be losing nothing.
          ArmoBabi, there are two things you need to realize here. 1. Life's not fair (and most of the historical monuments have been long destroyed anyway). 2. We haven't even sufficiently proven the genocide (to the extent that the US is forced to recognize it, people still love to throw around the Turkish point of view.) How can you possibly think to ask for monetary reparations without even having it totally recognized yet?! It hurts our cause to say "you genocided us now give us money", it basically destroys our creditability and gives the impression to others we are only doing it for the money.
          The Turks of course will paint us that way, but no one will listen to it if we don't prove them right. Doing it because they say we do it is playing right into their hands. We can't ask for a thing, yet. And in a way I feel asking for reparations belittles the genocide. It's been so long, I don't feel its something we should necesarily profit off of. Of course Turkey should pay some sort of reparation, but at the same time after this long hard fight, any sort of demands we make on them will make it seem like we only did it for the money. With the Jews there was no need to proove to the majority of people it ever happened, so they could get reparations much easier. I don't want people thinking we Armenians are doing this just for greed.

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          • #15
            Did you really read my posts? I am not expecting this out of the blue. Im simply saying that I think it would be the best case scenario, and hope it can happen eventually. (I dont think it will btw...)

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            • #16
              Originally posted by IAmMadAtAC
              but at the same time after this long hard fight, any sort of demands we make on them will make it seem like we only did it for the money.
              That's what they want to make you believe. Why are you falling for it? Armenians have wanted compensation since the beginning 90 years ago. It's Turkey that keeps strechting time. Many Armenians who wanted monetary compensation before have backed down their claims just to please the Turks. Are the Turks pleased? Will they ever be? Hence I repeat Fr. Mouradian's words: "We have begged and requested in the 20th century. Now the time has come to demand." Enough is enough. We have have done everything to get recognition out of Turkey, and it's not working. Time to stop adapting ourselves to their demands, but time to force them to live by our demands! Or do you want this to go on for another 900 years?

              As for the money, it would be quite useful to pay off all the lobbying that is being done, rebuilding Armenia, paying for maintenance of Armenian monuments in Turkey, paying a head start to those who want to live in Eastern Turkey and rebuild historic Armenian, and to simply compensate for 90 years of denial. There's plenty we can do with the money, and it's not just about money. They stole over 2 billion dollars from us when they stole our houses, our cattle, our money. We have been forced to live in diaspora for over 90 years and our homeland that was forced to join the USSR never did better either.

              We're doing it for the memory of all those who would want compensation too. Moral compensation and an apology is simply not enough for many Armenians. Why can't we respect their demands? And why does Turkey feel insulted when Armenians ask for compensation? Do they have the right to feel insulted at all? After all the crap that they have done? Not as far as I'm concerned!

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              • #17
                Originally posted by ArmoBarbi
                Ok, wino, you convinced us - demonstrate. lol
                one day perhaps I will....

                Comment

                • #18
                  OK let me lay it all out....

                  Nairi - I understand how you feel - but unfortunatly your approach will get us nowhere IMO. One reason that it is so easy for the Turkish government to convince its people that we are the aggressors - the terrible ones and that they are the victims is the attitudes and expresions of many Armenians (of the Diaspora). The Turks see this aggresive stance on the part of Armenians and immediatly recoil - and if you were in their shoes you would too.

                  I'm not saying that you and other Armenians are wrong and that Turks (Turkish Government in particular) are/is right - but its a matter of what is constructive and what will only lead to the predictable result - rejection. And I'm not necessarily saying that we Armenians have to care (about the Turks/what Turks think & feel) - but I am one who sees the Turks as victims too - in a very real sense - and not of Armenians (don't be absurd) - but of the circumstances surrounding the fall of their Empire and culture and the resultant wars and poverty that the Ottoman Empire and that its citizens (Turks, Armenians and others) were plunged into. And this is why they will continue to deny that they could have done such a wrong.

                  You have to understand that like us - the Turks see first and foremost their own suffering and identify with their own plight. And the collapse of the Ottoman EMpire - the rise of nationalism in the outlying districts (that led to independence [Greece/Balkans/various Arab lands] and the expulsion of ethinic Turks and [from Europe] other Muslims) as well as external campaigns against the Turks - primarily by Russia - but also by the other oppurtunistic European colonial powers of the day (much of WWI - particualrly in the Middle East - was a big colonial land grab at the expense of the Ottoman Empire - they were salivating for years at this prospect...) - this all made for a situation of extreme xenophobia and distrust of others during this period - and resulted in extreme hardship for a great many Turks (and this is a fundemental truth that we often/most always ignore and fail to understand).

                  From this there was revolution - and the CUP/Young Turks were at first a promiss of modernity, reform and escape from the extreme corruption and arbitraryness of the Sultan that plagued the Ottoman EMpire in its later days and kept it stagnant while the rest of Europe was moving foreward and liberalizing (there was to be rule of law - necessarily for civil rights and for business prosperity). This hope was (initially) well shared by Armenians as well as Turks and all other peoples of the Empire. Unfortunatly - as we have seen - and as is typical in revolutions - particularly ones with such great societal upheaval and with such tremendous outside pressures as well - those who rose to power were not at all liberal or benevolent but were bent on aquirring and maintaining power and were also determined to rid themselves of all rivals and potential competion - thus the early campaign against the very Armenian revolutionary parties that had supported them and shared their supposed goals for liberalization and equality for peoples of the Empire.

                  The rest is as we say history - as these same CUP leaders deluded themselves into thinking that (by allying with Germany in WWI and by removing the "foreign"/destabalising elements within their population) they could reclaim and expand the glory of the Ottoman Empire - but this time (Eastward) for Turks and for Turks alone. But in doing so they plunged the nation into further dispair. Their attempts to centralize the economy (and fund much of this through theft of Armenian property and industry) was a complete failure. This and the various impacts of the war (additional refuges and shortages) added to the suffering of the people - and the uprooting/elimination of Armenians led to tremendous food shortages and collapse of industry and commerce.

                  And remember they blamed the Armenians for their defeats and for all of the problems of the EMpire (scapegoating) and used Turkish/Muslim jealosy of their wealth and association with their (refugee Turks) Orthodox tormentors (from the Balkans and from Russia) as a means to rally the people against the Armenians and for Armenians (and eventually Greeks) to take the blame. And during the war they saw themselves (somewhat correctly) as besieged from all sides by colonial powers that just wanted to carve up their empire and leave them with nothing (and they saw and see the Armenian question strictly within the confines of this paradign as an integral part of such (thus the cahrge of treason - that we abandoned them while they were down etc - you should notice how the Turks always referrence how we were and are being used by the Europeans etc) - anyway - so after WWI the Nationalist/Kemalist rise from the ashes - and it truly was a glorious thing in the eyes of the Turks - as it should be seen - but again everything falls into place with Ataturk initiating a new Turkish conciousness that is predicated on lack of any recognition of minority status. The (remaining/unmassacred) Greeks are expelled (forcibly transferred for Turks from Greece/Balkans after the failed Greek land grab that was encouraged - but then ultimatly not materially supported - by the Brits/Europeans) - and all of this further led to this Turkish mindset of Armenians (and Greeks) as traitors within - that what was done was justified - and that (interestingly) it wasn't really so bad as we say (and in fact they valiantly did their part ot protect us - and so on and so forth) - that this (Genocide charge) is/was all part of some anti-Turkish propoganda - and that by the way - most everything we claim was done to us they now claim was done to them by us - and again wartime propoganda and rallying and making excuse to cover what was being done all play into supporting these notions as truth in the Turkish mindset - as many years (decades) of anti-Armenian hatred and resentment had been building up on the part of the Turks and this was further enflamed by the refugees returning from other parts of the Empire with sotores of Orthodox Christian brutalities against them - and these people were settled amongst the Armenians.

                  So this is the problem. How can we really expect the Turks - with all of this baggage - and no real incentive to dump it (much disincentive in fact) - how can we expect them to even remotly accept our claims of Genocide? (as we stridently scream accusations at them?) All the dice are loaded for them to see it totally differently and to dismiss all of our (the) facts as manufactured/invented (after all they do it all the time - so they expect others do so as well!) - etc. And we never acknowledge their suffering or conditions either - not at all (of course how could they really expect us to - but no one does - and thats the point....)

                  This is why the confrontational approach will never work. So IMO we are left with 4 possible choices of approach - 1) keep up the way we have been (confrontation - all bark and no bite....) - perpetuates Armenian unity and the same animosities and makes us feel good about doing our duty etc - but doesn't really seem to be getting us anywhere or 2) attempt to convince/educate Turkish people and the world etc nicely (with hope for reconcilliation) - which means listening to them a bit as well, or 3) just to ignore them - why should we care anymore what the Turks think after what they have done to us? etc etc - and why do we need to beg others to understand as well - whats the point of it? etc - or 4) we could just dump this silly protest and pretense and basically declare (secret?) war upon them - but do so smartly - with the ultimate aim - if we really feel it - and have the stomach for it (as atrocities will necesarily be involved - and is this who we really are and what we want to do - and be known for...etc etc) - to essentially take these guys out (in a way that will make ASALA look like total kids stuff - which they were).

                  Students of technology - of science - of warfare - should be able to see the very many ways the new technologies and techniques can be applied to achieve these aims. No country - no matter how large or sophisticated is immune (and in fact the more to lose - the more vunerable [to the blackmail aspect and ultimatly to the big fall] one is). It is amazing how very fragile our societies are - how interdependent and reliant on a very many things all working smoothly together...and how on what thin margins we rely upon in order to manage and to prosper. And you don't think Turkey is perhaps close to crumble? That is the easy part - the hard part is being positioned to be there to pick up the peices and restore proper order to ones liking. eh eh - anyway food for thought - eh? And yes - I think Turks are right to fear us - they should - we Armenians are potentially very dangerous....maybe we should give them a warning - some incentive to give in - as ultimatly I think Turkey [government] will only admit when their very survival is at stake....one way or another...

                  Still I hold out hope and would opt for option #2....but keep 3 & particularly 4 in ones pocket just in case it comes to such...they really do piss me off sometime you know....

                  Comment

                  • #19
                    Beautiful post nairi.


                    Originally posted by winoman
                    It just plays into Turkish hands - that they portray Armenians as (stil) sucking their blood...etc....do you really understand how the Turks see this whole thing - why they are so fanatical against it being considered a genocide and why many actually believe trhat it wasn't - that they did no wrong?
                    Honestly, I don’t give a rip about what some Turks are gonna think… The last thing on my mind is what some Turk fanatics are gonna think if we ask for compensation. What matters is they OWE us the money, and just like nairi said, Armenia can use the money. So you are willing to let go of your rights just to please some Turks??!!! WHY? As I said before, asking for compensation is nothing abnormal, Germany has been paying the Jews reparation payments and this is exactly the same. I think the ones who think we should let go of our rights and not ask for monetary compesation just so we look good in their eyes are being naive.

                    Comment

                    • #20
                      Originally posted by CatWoman
                      Beautiful post nairi.



                      Honestly, I don’t give a rip about what some Turks are gonna think… The last thing on my mind is what some Turk fanatics are gonna think if we ask for compensation. What matters is they OWE us the money, and just like nairi said, Armenia can use the money. So you are willing to let go of your rights just to please some Turks??!!! WHY? As I said before, asking for compensation is nothing abnormal, Germany has been paying the Jews reparation payments and this is exactly the same. I think the ones who think we should let go of our rights and not ask for monetary compesation just so we look good in their eyes are being naive.
                      please read my above post. The compensation issue is filled with all kinds of minefields. The Turks are either going to offer "us' some considerations (I don't even know how to phrase it - and again my question - "how much do you feel you deserve?" etc) - or we or others will force something out of them. At this point I can't concieve of either happening anytime soon - and certainly not with an approach that consists of our just demanding such (in the curent environment or one of the very near future). So what i ma saying is that we try to act constructively and not just spin our wheels (and perhaps even make things worse)...etc

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