Liberation of Western Armenia

[alby]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

My observation as an Armenian regarding this issue:
Back in 1915 when the genocide took place, the population of Turkey was 12 to 14 million of which less than 2 million were Armenians (15%). Now, more than 90 years later the population of Turkey is about 60 million and Armenia about 2 million (0.3%), by the time the day comes that we liberate the lands that everyone in the region wants to own (including 30 million Kurds) the population of all will increase while the Armenian population will most probably at most stay the same!
Now how can we expect to liberate any land with figures like that? And even if and when that happens, who would go to live there. Look at Karabakh now, after sacrificing thousands of lives to liberate it, now nobody wants to settle there and make it better, not even the natives of the area.
I am sorry to sound so negative but I don’t want to dream a fantasy. I think we as Armenians would be better off to create a solid country first, without corruption and crime, but with patriotism and nationalism, industrialization, human rights, education and so on. Then and only then the world would really take us seriously and respect us and our demands.
Again, without offending anyone’s beliefs and dreams I must say that this is my personal opinion and I could be wrong but that’s what I think.

http://armenianpages.com

[Londoner]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

it's funny dream. why?

1- 3 million populated Armenia against 75 million (except 14 million Kurds)????? Hell yeah!
2- unmodernized Armenian army with former soviet tools such rotten antonovs and 1950's tools against well modernized (by israel, france, germany, usa and more) military dictatorship???
3- We (kurds) never accept such a thing. Van belongs to us!
4- Dream on. That's it. I'm brave to discuss, ban me if you want but atleast i'm honest

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

My observation as an Armenian regarding this issue:
Back in 1915 when the genocide took place, the population of Turkey was 12 to 14 million of which less than 2 million were Armenians (15%). Now, more than 90 years later the population of Turkey is about 60 million and Armenia about 2 million (0.3%), by the time the day comes that we liberate the lands that everyone in the region wants to own (including 30 million Kurds) the population of all will increase while the Armenian population will most probably at most stay the same!
Now how can we expect to liberate any land with figures like that? And even if and when that happens, who would go to live there. Look at Karabakh now, after sacrificing thousands of lives to liberate it, now nobody wants to settle there and make it better, not even the natives of the area.
I am sorry to sound so negative but I don’t want to dream a fantasy. I think we as Armenians would be better off to create a solid country first, without corruption and crime, but with patriotism and nationalism, industrialization, human rights, education and so on. Then and only then the world would really take us seriously and respect us and our demands.
Again, without offending anyone’s beliefs and dreams I must say that this is my personal opinion and I could be wrong but that’s what I think.

http://armenianpages.com

I disagree with you for a different reason. Regardless of Armenia's current population the considerations for reclaiming lost Armenian lands are different. The policies of Armenia's neighbors are hostile to the survival of Armenia. The only exception may be Iran due to its own political/economic needs. If Armenia and Armenians are to prosper then at some point a strategy needs to be devised that is aimed at changing the political atmosphere of Armenia's neighborhood. Some may want to be positive and say this can be done through a policy of reconciliation. However, this is not realistic. Strength and conflict are the norm for human relations and history. As long as Armenia remains a landlocked small nation with space to defend itself then it will always be a pawn. It will take time, unity, and resolve to change this. The disadvantage for Armenia currently is its own internal politics, corruption, and a reliance on military hardware and doctrine that do not work for a small nation. Being small it needs to look at developing a military industry geared towards technology and superior firepower. If you look at Armenians as a people you will see that we are not all good business men. Many are talented and excel the world over in technology, engineering and science. By building a strong military industrial capacity you improve your economy and become a political force to be reckoned with. At the same time Armenia needs to strengthen its intelligence/espionage ability and make every effort to destabilize those nations who have and continue to harm her interests. Armenia will achieve true freedom when it has finally retaken at the very least lands stretching to the western mountains of Kars and north to the Black Sea. This will provide economic freedom and a minimum strategic space for effective defense of Armenia. This is a realistic and necessary goal that Armenians need to realize and it is far more realistic then lets make friends with the Azeris and Turks so we can all join the EU and live happily ever after. No disrespect intended but I think that is unrealistic and dangerous to the survival or Armenian culture.

[Ari]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

ohhh ohhh so much time wasted on this thread

its hilarious

[Armenian]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I disagree with you for a different reason. Regardless of Armenia's current population the considerations for reclaiming lost Armenian lands are different. The policies of Armenia's neighbors are hostile to the survival of Armenia. The only exception may be Iran due to its own political/economic needs. If Armenia and Armenians are to prosper then at some point a strategy needs to be devised that is aimed at changing the political atmosphere of Armenia's neighborhood. Some may want to be positive and say this can be done through a policy of reconciliation. However, this is not realistic. Strength and conflict are the norm for human relations and history. As long as Armenia remains a landlocked small nation with space to defend itself then it will always be a pawn. It will take time, unity, and resolve to change this. The disadvantage for Armenia currently is its own internal politics, corruption, and a reliance on military hardware and doctrine that do not work for a small nation. Being small it needs to look at developing a military industry geared towards technology and superior firepower. If you look at Armenians as a people you will see that we are not all good business men. Many are talented and excel the world over in technology, engineering and science. By building a strong military industrial capacity you improve your economy and become a political force to be reckoned with. At the same time Armenia needs to strengthen its intelligence/espionage ability and make every effort to destabilize those nations who have and continue to harm her interests. Armenia will achieve true freedom when it has finally retaken at the very least lands stretching to the western mountains of Kars and north to the Black Sea. This will provide economic freedom and a minimum strategic space for effective defense of Armenia. This is a realistic and necessary goal that Armenians need to realize and it is far more realistic then lets make friends with the Azeris and Turks so we can all join the EU and live happily ever after. No disrespect intended but I think that is unrealistic and dangerous to the survival or Armenian culture.

Excellent commentary, @nker. As long as Armenia remains insignificant - tiny and landlocked - Armenia will be always be a nation asking major powers for hand-outs and mercy. As a result, Armenia will always be vulnerable and unstable. I am not advocating 'war' with anyone, however, we Armenians need to think in the long-term. We need to set the foundations of a more powerful nation. And we need to realize that if we want to be taken seriously by the powers that be, we need to show them that we as a nation impact regional poitics and economy. With this context, many within our community will be our worst obstacles, not the Turks.

[skhara]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

WMD program I say!

[Armenian]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

WMD program I say!

I agree. We have the capability - the technology, the experts, the power plant, the nuclear fuel, etc. We seriously need to think about producing such types of weapons in the long-term. I don't think our nation is ready for it just yet. You first need a stable political environment, economic stability and a stable social climate before you pursue such an agenda. Also, Yerevan has to convince Tehran and Moscow that a nuclear armed Armenia is in their interests as well. Without Russian or Iranian approval Yerevan won't be able to do this.

[Selpak]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

So she won't. Because it leads to nuclear armed turkey and azerbeycan which is not liked by the countries you named. Being land located country is not excuse for low exports. Armenia can not compate on heavy industry. And she is not best place for banking, tourism etc. I think Armenian should focus on high added value goods.

[skhara]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Without Russian or Iranian approval Yerevan won't be able to do this.

Well then it would never happen, because such power would realease Armenia from a position of having to appease these powers to a position of Armenia showing them her teeth when she is upset.

They would never see that as part of their interests.

Have an agenda of massive amounts of dirty bombs and then blackmail them.
I am really thinking that the nastier we can be, the better off we will be.

[Armenian]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Well then it would never happen, because such power would realease Armenia from a position of having to appease these powers to a position of Armenia showing them her teeth when she is upset.

Correct. This is the fundamental problem we face as a nation. Russia, and I would also suspect Iran, would like to see Armenia dependent on it for survival.

They would never see that as part of their interests.

Well, that we don't know. Anything can happen in the future. It is up to Yerevan to lay the ground work for it. I personally won't be surprised if it was revealed that Armenia possessed a 'tactical' nuclear weapon. There was serious talk about this in the mid 90s.

I am really thinking that the nastier we can be, the better off we will be.

Sadly, that is the very nature of politics. And don't forget, most of the Western nations today that have high standards of living and relatively low corruption started off very nasty, very unethical and very corrupt.

We need 'corrupt' Armenian politicians with 'deep roots' in Armenia, those who want to protect their aquired wealth and real estate within the country and not elsewhere.