Liberation of Western Armenia

[Kamo]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

you are so wise. maybe you can move to Armenia and run for President and fix all the problems that Armenians face. Can you outline your platform for me maybe I can help you iron out details.

Outline my platform?
Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go,
this is based on me spending 3 months a year there, and having contant feedback and news from there. I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes

At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.
-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.



On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Outline my platform?
Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go,
this is based on me spending 3 months a year there, and having contant feedback and news from there. I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes

At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.
-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.



On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

You make valid points on the current situation and if you are in fact going back and forth and trying to make a difference, you have my respect for that.
I have not been back since I was a teenager on a trip with my family and Armenia was still part of USSR. In general my involvement has not been extensive but I do have relatives who I hope to visit in the coming year. Our family in America basically supports a good portion if not all of our family in Armenia.
As of the second part there are way too many flaws in my opinion. Of course my opinion is based on my own experience and observation on what power and force mean. In your scenario Armenia remains little more than a vassal state and hopes that it can stay in the good graces of Russia, Iran, and Turkey so that another genocide does not occur. Genocides still go on today and no one does anything about them. My belief is that with the prolifiration of nukes, the lethality of modern weapons and tactics, the scarcity of resources will all lead to further wars with catastrophic consequences. Regardless where I live I intend to do what I can to provide for me and mine. Armenians are mine by virtue of blood and heritage. I think it is naive to not realize that in any major war it is valid and in the best interests of all nations to grab as much realestate as possible and eliminate the competition. I am not trying to advocate war or genocide but the reason they happen is because it is a part of human nature and civilized rules go out the door when your arse is on the line.
So please continue your efforts and I cerainly think they are worthwhile but don't preach peace our of fear. That was the thinking that allowed Armenians to remain slaves for 600 yrs and get butchered, not the nationalists who had enough of slavery and stood up to fight.

[Kamo]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

You also said you wanted to pick at my argument, which i was looking forward to (as discussion is the only way forward), but you didnt even answer any of the points you claim are "flawed"

Now either they are not flawed, or you do not have a better solution?

And i dont mean that in a patronising way. Armenian politics has become interesting recently, and i want to hear more peoples views.

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

You also said you wanted to pick at my argument, which i was looking forward to (as discussion is the only way forward), but you didnt even answer any of the points you claim are "flawed"

Now either they are not flawed, or you do not have a better solution?

And i dont mean that in a patronising way. Armenian politics has become interesting recently, and i want to hear more peoples views.

Point well taken. let me list the flaws in my opinion.

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Outline my platform?
Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go,
this is based on me spending 3 months a year there, and having contant feedback and news from there. I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes

At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.
-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.



On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

My responses. Sorry for the delay I got called into a meeting.

By saying the RA has no legal claims to lands in Turkey you are showing a willingness to follow the present status quo of the world. This is wrong and ultimately anti-Armenian and pro-Globalist. It is not in the interests of any nation or people to succumb to a global leadership. The larger the organization (even democracies) the less democracy and freedom for individual or cultural minorities.

The whole section on private individuals making claims to Turkey.... I cannot agree with this. Either way it is full of problems. If the plan is to do a "Zionist" type land grab like in Palestine, ok if you think Turkey will allow it. If not then what? After the Genocide what self-respecting Armenian is going to live under Turkish rule. Plus adding the part about paying tax to Turkey just rubs me in the wrong way. Should these people also swear loyalty to Turkey and call themselves Turks first and then Armenians? If it is just to get something back and these people turn around sell the land then it was for personal gain and they are really no different then any other profiteer.

If you truly believe that the consequences of any conflict with Turkey will end in another attempt at Genocide against our people then there is not need for me to justify my aggressive and hostile attitude towards Turkey and my desire to work only at destabilizing their nation for the gain of Armenians.

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

You also said you wanted to pick at my argument, which i was looking forward to (as discussion is the only way forward), but you didnt even answer any of the points you claim are "flawed"

Now either they are not flawed, or you do not have a better solution?

And i dont mean that in a patronising way. Armenian politics has become interesting recently, and i want to hear more peoples views.

To be fair to you I will agree that I do not know the situation in Armenia. I can tell you my ideas but from what I have read one needs connections to get things done in Armenia. My relatives are honest working people without jobs, so I do not believe they will be the source for connections in getting things accomplished. Armenians in the diaspora need to continue support as they do especially in the political arena. This will become even more important if Armenia ever gets any real defense industry off the ground. Since the nation does not have the resources for massive factory type work it can and should consider those weapons within its means. If they are not already working on building something with all the frigging nuke waste then I don't know what they are thinking. If the US can ignore NPT, saltII etc then lil ol Armenia can be sly and work on something on the side, especially with the Iranians. That is just for starters. Anyway, I am interested on your responses. Will have to check back in a while need to deploy some changes first.

[Armenian]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Outline my platform? Well, im not as arrogant or as unrealistic as some on this board to announce a super new plan, but i will give a few opinions on where Armenia should go...

You seem to be quite "arrogant" and "unrealistic" to think that you have the answers for Armenia's current plight. Based upon what I have seen you write thus far, you obviously have no comprehension of this topic of discussion.

I also am continuing to study policy making at university, so i hope it gives me a decent basis for applying policies to a real country.

Oh, O.K. Now I see where your arrogance comes from.

So, Armenia is your sachool experiment, eh?

Will you get a credit bonus if you fix Armenia?

Jeez... I can't stand annoying 'students' like you.

Armenia has many problems facing it today, most of these revolve around the issue of not enough money going into the budget, to be then spent on welfare and so on, such as healthcare, education, social provisions, military, research, etc etc. Therefore, the economy needs to be improved.

Wow! You mean you had to go to a 'university' to come to this realization?

Education can be a dangerous thing for some people.

To do this, an extremely skilled workforce is needed, to be able to attract foreign investment into the country. We cannot bid for investment on basis of cheap labour, this neither will mean long term investment, nor will it help the masses in armenia who have suffered enough. To do this
- Education needs to be a priority, unlike today
- Guarantees need to be given to firms of political stability
- Give temporary financial incentives to firms (e.g. 10 year tax break) (I am usually against tax breaks, but if it means cutting employment, which is at extremely high levels, then at least its filling in a problem, if not actually adding to tax revenue - however more imployment = more spending = more products sold = more tax brought in

To do the above you need normal neighbors and a normal geo-political environment. You also need free and unhindred access to the outside world. Most of all you need peace. You need foregin investments. What's more, you need a new generation of Armenians free of old Bolshevik mentalities. And you need to put all of the above together and give it plenty of time. All you are doing is blindly and foolishly applying 'American' economic formulas to Armenia's unique concerns and conditions.

Secondly, the issue of Corruption:
There are two choices
1 - A revolution of the masses who end corruption by force
2 - To appease the corrupt, let them skim the top at the expense of the masses, until there is a strong enough government who can pay officals more money than it is worth them to accept bribes, At the same time buureaucracy should be cut. The use of technology can be used for this, thus cutting out people who can take bribes. (See "E-government) for this.

Talk to me about stopping corruption when you stop corruption anywhere else on earth, including your ideal "Israel," or America, or Europe. Again, you are applying generic and vague formulas to Armenia's unique situation. Again, you are day dreaming.

Thirdly, Social issues
- These should be addressed as soon as the economy allows.
This does not mean social problems are less important than finance, however, to solve the many horrific problems in armenia (prostitution, drugs, crime etc) there needs funding.

I thought you stated - bureaucracy should be cut?

-These issues which are replicated in all CIS countries have filled my eyes out of the plight of these forgotten people, and it is vital we can help them as soon as possible. And this is the crux of the argument as to why the notion of creating policies for Western Armenia is a non-starter.

O.K. To make you happy we'll turn Armenia into a welfare state. How that? Regarding Western Armenia, I suggest you re-read my comments and posts regarding it before you make pointless comments.

On the issue of Western Armenia...

The Republic of Armenia has NO legal claims to historical Armenia, and cannot achieve anything without the use of force - again, a non starter. Nobody will start a war and lose more sons and brothers and fathers to a war. Particularly as the Kharabagh issue is not even close to being solved.

Actually, Armenia 'has' a legal claim to the lands. I suggest you wake up from your stupor. Again, I suggest you re-read my comments and posts before you continue making yourself sound less-than smart. Thus far, your intellect is not very becoming of a 'gung-ho' university student.

Private individuals should use their territorial claims and either take the land back, or get compensation for it. This should be done thorugh the legal system. This isnt too unrealistic, given that most of this land is in nomadic peoples hands, and the Turks dont really care unless there are political ramifications. The armenians would after all have to pay land tax, which the kurds dont...

Through the legal system??? Surly you must be a naive child. Please spare us the drama...

I would also like to remind people of the people living in Turkey at the moment, i believe, i could be wrong, there are 50,000 Armenians in Turkey, a lot who are still well to do, now imagine what would happen to them well before any act of war was produced.

You are talking to a person that could care-less what happens to those people. And yet again, you have totally misunderstood my comments about Western Armenia.

The scenario was given that if there is civil unrest in Turkey, and geopolitical powers wanted to push into Turkey, then Armenia should grab the opportunity (i think the scenario was given in the future situation). Sound awfully familiar...of 1915. And its surprising that Nationalist Armenians want to create the same framework within which the first genocide of the 20th century occured. I dont think 1 armenian would be left in that situation.

And you sound awfully familiar to the countless lame-ducks and traitors we have had throughout our history. Had the entire Armenian nation within the Ottoman Empire rose in union under the "Nationalist" flag - there would not have been an Armenian Genocide to lament over today. It is your kind that has kept us back from realizing our potential.

Dreaming is fine, but know the consequences.

Exactly.

I would also like to know who has been to Armenia and for how regularly a year. I ask this as this truly shows if people are talking Diasporan nonsense, or have even the tiniest bit of understanding of what is going on in Armenia today.

Get off your fabricated high horse. The Armenian Republic is more familiar to me - physically, intellectually and spiritually - than you think.

Work for Armenia today, not the dreams of yesteryear.

No thanks. I'll work for the Armenia of tomorrow, you worry about today.

I encourage anyone to go to Armenia, and see how you can help anyone there, with work, education or any other way.

Thank you for your wise words of encouragement.

Well, it is fact is it not, that Armenia at the moment is nothing more than a semi-colonial state, and this was the decision taken by the HHSh movement, and either way, whats done is done.

Those were the cards that were dealt to us with the fall of the Soviet Union. A tiny landlocked nation surrounded by troublesome giants. A tiny landlocked nation surrounded by political, economic and ethinc crisis. Nonetheless, I rather be a "semi-colonial state" of Russia than a full subject of Turkey.

the fact is at the moment, Turkey is much more powerful than Armenia, and the only way Armenia can get ahead is by becoming smart

OH, O.K. Lets become smart...

Look at Israel, how it defeated Egypt...
Now i dont condone the genocidal actions of Israel against the arabs, but i think Armenia can avoid the pitfalls in which ISrael fell, and become a powerhouse.

Why look at Israel? Were they the only ones who defeated an enemy? Didn't Armenians defeat a foe much wealthier and larger? Besides, don't talk about topics that you dont understand anything about, especially military topics. Nonetheless, I strongly suggest you stop comparing Israel's geo-political situation with Armenia's. The birth of the two nations, the geo-political situations of the two nations are a world apart.

When Armenians number over ten-fifteen million in the US and control the US government; when Armenians control the main-stream news media and popular culture in America; when Armenia siphones off over five hundred billion dollars of American tax payers money for the 'unconditional' use of the Armenian republic - we'll then talk about comparing Armenia to Israel. Advise for you, comparing Armenians and Joos makes you look stupid, for the two nations in question could not be any more different than they already are.

Anyway, I wold like to thank you for your sage-like suggestions. And let me also tell you, had you been a bit more civil in your initial reply to my topic of discussion, I would have treated you as an adult. However, seeing that you are just a spolied child you will be treated as such.

[Armenian]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

By saying the RA has no legal claims to lands in Turkey you are showing a willingness to follow the present status quo of the world. This is wrong and ultimately anti-Armenian and pro-Globalist. It is not in the interests of any nation or people to succumb to a global leadership. The larger the organization (even democracies) the less democracy and freedom for individual or cultural minorities.

The reality is that Armenia has a very "legal" claim to those lands in question. The lands were not given away by Armenians, they were given away by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Armenians never signed the agreement at the time between Moscow and Ankara. On paper, Armenians recognizes the 1918 'Wilsonian Armenia.' At the end of the First World War, Wilsonian Armenia was accepted by the international community as well, before the Bolsheviks came into the scene. However, now that Bolshevism is no more, Armenia can legally ask for the lands back.

The following article pertains this topic of discussion.

About the Denunciation of the Russian-Turkish Treaty

Summary Right now there is too much talking about both the formation of a civil society in terms of law and its integration in the international community. Out of consideration for international laws and regulations, it is really important to re-establish a historical justice. The geopolitical and strategic matters will not be settled without first solving the issue of the Armenian territories of a prior-to-the-revolution Russia. The March 16, 1921 Treaty between the Soviet Socialist Republic of Russia and the government of Kemalist Turkey is a clear example of the breach of the peoples’ rights. It must be borne in mind that since the summer of 1920, there were two government in Turkey: one in Ankara led by Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk); and another one internationally recognized in those days - the Constantinople government.

In the first part of the Treaty, Russia factually recognized the superiority of the Turkish decisions about the international conventions and the principles approved by the UN. In the second part - about the Black Sea and the straits - there are a number of articles not accomplished any more. On page 8, Russia recognized the zone controlled by the Kemalists in March, 1921, as an integral part of the «Turkish territories». Neither then nor now is there a single justification for this in terms of international law.

The Nakhitchevan province was part of the first Republic of Armenia since 1918, and of the Armenian part of the Czarist Russia since 1828. Mount Ararat (on which Noah’s Ark would run aground) was part of this province, of which Turkey took possession. Then, from February 9, 1924, Nakhitchevan became an autonomous republic within the Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan. This treaty conflicts with the Vienna Convention «on the laws of international treaties». The rights of the Russian, Armenian, Kurdish and Greek peoples have not been respected. So, the said treaty must be annulled or revised. It equally opposes the Statement of the Human Rights stipulated by the UN in 1948.

Together with the Armenian National Club Miabanutiun, we advocate the creation of a program aimed at settling the issue by stages. The first would consist of a Russian-Turkish agreement including the right for the descendants of the inhabitants of those regions to return, and then the right to re-establish our historical and cultural patrimony, the creation of an economic entity and the restoration of the old Christian churches.

[Armenian]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Harmar khosker anvtangutyan nakharari koghmits:

Ազգային անվտանգության ռազմավարության նախագծի հիմքում ժողովրդի ֆիզիկական գոյության ապահովումն է: Այլ ժողովուրդների համար սա կարող է երկրորդական լինել, որովհետեւ չեմ կարծում, որ չինացիները կարող են մտածել իրենց ժողովրդի ֆիզիկական գոյությունը պահելու համար,-այսօր ԵՊՀ-ում հայտարարեց պաշտպանության նախարար Սերժ Սարգսյանը,- բայց մենք այս տարածքում մնացել ենք ընդամենը 3 միլիոն: Եվ մեզ համար ամենակարեւորը սա է: Իսկ վտանգը լինում է հիմնականում արտաքինից, ոչ թե ներքինիցՙ:

Նրա վերջին նախադասությունը պատասխան էր դասախոսներից մեկի դիտարկմանը, թե հայեցակարգում ավելի շատ տեղ հատկացված էր արտաքին, քան ներքին անվտանգության հարցերին:

http://www.a1plus.am/amu/?page=issue&iid=42869

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

The reality is that Armenia has a very "legal" claim to those lands in question. The lands were not given away by Armenians, they were given away by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Armenians never signed the agreement at the time between Moscow and Ankara. On paper, Armenians recognizes the 1918 'Wilsonian Armenia.' At the end of the First World War, Wilsonian Armenia was accepted by the international community as well, before the Bolsheviks came into the scene. However, now that Bolshevism is no more, Armenia can legally ask for the lands back.

The following article pertains this topic of discussion.

Thanks for the info. I think we do need to remember that back then any help did not extend beyond declaring what was ours but no one really did anything to help a massacred people.