The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Growing up in a country where Armenians are liked and respected, always when dealing with 'foreigners', I was naturally expecting to see and hear some kind of embellished, complimentary comments about Armenians and especially from Armenia-friendly nations such as Russia, France, and etc. But my first experience which was 'disappointing' and changed my mind came with the French and when I started interacting with them. You know I was expecting what… but all I got was total ignorance and indifference (nothing hostile though)... It was quite an eye-opening experience for me, I just realized/ learnt not to expect anything from simple, average people...

Lucin jan, you are talking about a very subjective matter. What's more, issues you are raising are very sociological in nature and are very relative as a result. Like I said in the past, Armenians are liked and respected in Iran because Armenians have kept to themselves and stayed out of their way. What's more, Armenians and Persian have a very long history together and a shared animosity/hate/fear of Turks. However, as good as Armenian-Iranian relations have been, how many Armenians can you count within the upper crust of Iranian society today? How many Armenians could be found in the upper crust of pre-revolution Iran? Please tell me what have Armenians in Iran achieved? I think the warm sentiments of Iranians towards us are subjective as best, empty at worst. I am just happy that for us Armenians Iran is not a hostile nation.

In Russia, however, Armenians are fully integrated (fully interwoven) within Russian society. This situation has enabled Armenians to reach great heights in Russian society, more often than not to the benefit of the Armenian nation. However, the full integration of non-Russians in Russian society can also potentially cause sociological/cultural problems. This is natural. It's natural especially if you take into consideration that for every respectful and decent Armenian in Russia - there is at least one other that is disrespectful and uncivilized. It's no secret that some Armenians tend to look down on Russians - and they do this in Russia! And it's not just in Russia. Take a close look at how some Armenians behave in California. I don't know if you know this but Americans in California hate Armenians with a passion. So, it's not always a one way street, Lucin. Be objective in your assessments.

Although I have not met many ethnic Russians in New York City (most of those who claim to be Russians in NYC are Jews) the ones that I have met have been very Armenian-friendly. I have a lot of close friends from Armenia who interact with Russians on a regular basis. My friends claim that during Soviet times Armenians were greatly respected by Russians. They claim that post-Soviet trauma in the Russian Federation essentially turned Russians off to all foreigners, regardless of where they were from. It is understandable that this negative attitude of Russians towards foreigners is directed more so towards peoples from the Caucasus. It's difficult for you living in Iran to understand what a negative connotation the Caucasus has on the mindset of the average Russian today. Hopefully with the Chechen insurgency crushed, with Azerbaijan and Georgia tamed this situation will change in the future.

Nonetheless, why do you 'expect' the French or the Russians or the Americans or the Germans to have love and respect for Armenians? Just ask yourself, why. This is silly if you think about it.

Is it because we were victims of Turks? That black page in our history should warrant respect and admiration? No, Lucin. In the eyes of major nations such a thing suggests weakness; and weakness is not respected.

We Armenians should be respected for being the first Christian nation? Do you think that trivia factoid matters for modern Westerners?

We Armenians should be respected for having a very long cultural heritage? Do you think modern Westerners with their high standard of living and lavish lifestyles care what we Armenians were like two, three, four thousand years ago?

We Armenians should be respected because we have many artists and scholars and scientist? Do you want to post a list of German, French, English, Russian, Polish, Italian, scientists, composers, artists, scholars? Do you realize how long and how magnificent that list would be?

Do you think that westerners living in places like Munchen, Stockholm, Rome, Salzburg, Toulouse, Berlin, Zurich, Paris, Prague, Krakow, Vienna, Venice, Amsterdam, Florance, St. Petersburg, Kiev, would care about or be impressed by our one and only city - Yerevan, much of which is dilapidated?

Do you think the French, the Germans, the Spaniards, the Italians, the Russians do not appreciate their beautiful countryside, their magnificent cities and the richness of their respective cultures, be it architecture, cuisine, fashion, music, art, technology, industry, what have you???

Why do you expect love and admiration from these people, especially from the common folk who don't know much about us Armenians?

Armenia/Armenians from a Russian perspective:

When Russians entered the Caucasus in the early 19th century by defeating the Turks and the Persians, Armenians were a nation-less ethnic group living as a minority amongst a Muslim (Turkish/Persian) majority. If one took Christianity away from an Armenian in the Caucasus and/or Anatolia the Armenian would be indistinguishable from the Persian or the Turk. In 1915 Yerevan was a tiny backward dusty town of about 30-40 thousand people, a majority of whom were Azeris, Kurds, Persians. An independent Armenia could not survive in the Caucasus had it not been for Russians and/or Communists. All those Armenians that achieved great fame either for their military service, or for their achievements in the sciences, or for their musical/artistic talent were able to do so within the structures of the Russian Empire or within a system setup by the Soviet Union. What's more, if Armenians defeated the Azeris in the 1990s and if Turks choose to stay out of Armenia today - its because of Russian arms...

The above is more-or-less how Russians see us Armenians.

Why do we like Jews always 'expect' to be liked and if anyone does not compliment us we are quick to label them our enemies?

I know what the problem is. We are a dispersed people. Most Armenians live in the diaspora amonsgt non-Armenians. So, wanting to be 'accepted' by the non-Armenians we live with is crucially important for our survival. Anyway, let's please end this. Besides which, in the world of politics, such sociological and/or cultural matters are meaningless.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

So it seems like that Turkish "Sun Language Theory" popped up on the surface only in 1935.

The fairytale in question is loosely based on a vague theory proposed by a couple of western scholars over a hundred years ago. The very root of the problem here is the issue dealing with the origins of Sumerians, known to be the first advanced civilization on earth. Over a hundred years ago the Sumerian language was wrongly speculated to be Turanian in nature due to certain aspect of the language. This speculation has been debunked by modern linguistics. Modern linguists and historians now claim that the Sumerians spoke a language unlike any other. However, some modern scholars also claim that the origin of the language in question may have been Caucasian (from the Caucasus).

Note that some Armenologists claim that Sumerians were proto-Armenians, or Armenid/Caucasian in origin. Although we don't yet know where they came from prior to their sudden appearance in Mesopotamia, it is known that Sumarians had extensive cultural and economic connections with the Armenian Highlands to their north (Asia Minor - Anatolia/Caucasus).

Interestingly, Sumarians worshiped a twin peaked mountain they called Mashu: http://rbedrosian.com/Memyth.htm

Armenians call the world famous twin peaked holy mountain of Ararat - Massis.

Linguistically and by connotation, Massis is Mashu.

What's more, there are many dozens of words in the Armenian vocabulary that have their roots in the Sumerian language. What's more, based on Sumerian epics, it is known that Sumer had close relations with a northern region known as Arrata, a mystical place that was known for its metallurgy and astronomy/theology. Because ancient Armenia was also known to be a center of metallurgy and astronomy, many Armenian scholars have equated the location Arrata with Armenia. What's more, the name "Arrata" suggest a primordial reference to the biblical name Ararat.

Incidentally, the term/name "Ar" is ubiquitous in the Armenian Highlands. The root is found in names of localities, rivers, mountains and proper names (male and female). In essence, we Armenians are the nation of Ar, Ar-men-ia. Ar is also the root for the Armenian sun Arev/Arek and our supreme creator God Aramazd, or his primordial representation Ara.

Just to put Armenia's ancient heritage in a better perspective:

Karahunj Armenia's "Stonehenge":

http://www.carahunge.am/history.html

http://www.tacentral.com/karahundj/karahundj1.asp

Metsamor, Armenia's ancient city known for metallurgy, astronomy and theology: http://www.tacentral.com/history/metsamor.htm

ON ANCIENT ASTRONOMY IN ARMENIA: http://www.iatp.am/resource/science/...w/pars-eng.htm

Open-Air Temple City of Agarak: http://www.archaeoexpeditions.com/Armenia.htm

Armenia's ancient history: http://www.tacentral.com/history.asp#

Erebuni: http://www.tacentral.com/erebuni/index.asp#1

The art of writing: http://www.tacentral.com/manuscripts.../writing2.html

Anatolia and the Caucasus, 8000–2000 b.c.: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/waa/ht02waa.htm

Actually, any facts can be cooked up or real facts can be twisted in such a way to fit the political agenda. I will take time to read more about their theory though just to see what FACTS do the Turks use.

There are no "facts" in the Sun Language Theory, it's all based on conjecture, speculation and false premises; such as the notion that Sumarians were of Turanian origin. I have not yet seen or heard any non-Turkish scholar take it seriously. I would even say that most Turks don't believe in that bullxxxx either. Please familiarize yourself with serious theories based on modern linguistics, archeology and anthropology.

In the opinion of many Armenian and non-Armenian scholars alike, one of the earliest centers of human civilization (if not the earliest) and the Indo-European (Aryan) homeland was located in Asia Minor (Anatolia/southern Caucasus) also known historically as the Armenian Highlands.

This is perhaps the oldest town ever unearthed, Catal Huyuk (Anatolia): http://www.focusmm.com/civcty/cathyk00.htm

Etruscans, known to be the first advanced civilization in Europe, were also from Asia Minor: http://www.huntfor.com/arthistory/ancient/etruscan.htm

Incidentally, Basques are thought to be from the Caucasus region as well.

This is what some Christian fundamentalists are promoting: http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/ararat.html#urartu

Mount Ararat is considered to be the cultural/spiritual navel of the earth.

These theories are not based on false information, mere speculations and/or conjecture - they are based on modern linguistics, biblical tradition, regional folklore, anthropology and archeology.

The Early History of Indo-European Languages: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftB...onicle120.html

The Armenian Gods: http://www.tacentral.com/mythology.asp?story_no=2

Prehistoric Sites in Northern Armenia: http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/dolukhanov/

THE BEGINNINGS OF METALLURGY: http://www.geocities.com/komblege/ansch1.htm

I can post a lot more information about the ancient legacy of Asia Minor and the Caucasus to make the case that the aforementioned region in question was the epicenter of human civilization and where the Caucasian (white) race first evolved or was created.

As a matter of fact, I can do better than that!

I can take the Sun Language Theory and replace the word Turkish with Armenian, the word Turanian with Armenid and the location Central Asia with Asia Minor - and I would have a "theory" that I can actually support scientifically.

By the way, how about the Scythians? And what do the Turks say about Sanskrit? And in your opinion, Armenian, who were the Scythians? Or better question to ask - who are the descendants of the Scythians?

Turks claim that Scythians were Turanians as well. However, in reality, Scythians were a highly advanced and a very warlike central Asian Iranic/Aryan tribe that got to dominate much of the Caucasus and southeastern Europe. Much of eastern Europe's ancient heritage/culture is derived from Aryan Scythians and to a lesser extent Cimmerians. Much of the population in and around the northern Caucasus/southern Russia have Scythian blood in their vains. There are also a lot of similarities between Scythians and British peoples, Celts in particular.

I have done a lot of research regarding these types of topics. If interested, we can discuss it in another thread. Let's keep this thread geopolitical. Please.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

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[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

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[Angessa]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

The fairytale in question is based on Atatürk's wet dream called the Sun LanguageTheory. According to interpretations of this "theory" human language evolved out of Central Asian Turks. They claim to be the originators of the first human civilization. They claim Sumerians were Turks; they claim Urartians were Turks; and they also claim American natives (American Indians) were Turks; they claim Scandinavian were Turks. They claim to be the first ones that brought civilization into Mesopotamia, Anatolia and the Caucasus (the region known to most historians as the cradle of human civilization). Btw, Turks also consider Russians to be off-shoots of Mongols, Tatars and Khazars. So, you Russians are also in essence, Turanian. Congratulations!

The also love to include the Japaneses and natives of the Americas in there glorious Turanian blood

[Siamanto]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Growing up in a country where Armenians are liked and respected, always when dealing with 'foreigners', I was naturally expecting to see and hear some kind of embellished, complimentary comments about Armenians and especially from Armenia-friendly nations such as Russia, France, and etc. But my first experience which was 'disappointing' and changed my mind came with the French and when I started interacting with them. You know I was expecting what… but all I got was total ignorance and indifference (nothing hostile though)...

It's an interesting subject, but, let's keep in mind that
1- It has no bearing on the main thread of discussion - i.e. the perception of Russians of the value of Armenia
2- No member of this forum spends time BS-ing other Armenians into putting all our eggs in the French basket; however, there's (at least) one notorious member who spends an incredible amount of time/effort BS-ing other Armenians into putting all our eggs in the Russian basket; and calumniating anybody who feels differently.


As for your experience, without getting into into details:
1- I know quite well the attitude of the French towards Armenians - based on life long experience, and the reactions are very different
2- I don't know the details of your experience; can you please provide details i.e. where and how? Who were these people? What was your interaction? Where?
3- Often, when about what you have called "average people," rumors matter more than knowledge in shaping a perception/opinion; so it's not necessarily about knowledge/ignorance

It was quite an eye-opening experience for me, I just realized/ learnt not to expect anything from simple, average people...

The opinions/reaction/attitudes of the "average people" reflect some reality. One may chose to ignore them, one may have little interest in them; but, for some us, it reveals certain perceptions, and it has some informational value.

As with the Russians, I think, as Armenian pointed it out, it's got to do with the not so positive image of the Caucasus in the mindset of Russians.

Maybe, maybe not: Everybody can think of the obvious, that is one of the explanations that come readily to the mind
In any case, stating the facts in different than analyzing; my purpose is/was not to analyze them.

The region in question is usually a reminder of instability, rebellion and a liability for Russia.

1- Of course, there may be an inclination to group them together, but you are making gross assumption that people are less knowledgeable than they really are; let's not forget that Russia is only north of Armenia where it has military bases, and Armenia was part of the Soviet Union
2- Consider the geographical vicinity of Israel, and the difference in perception - regardless whether it's more negative or positive - that "average people" have between Israelis and Arabs. Opinions are not necessarily - and logically - based on knowledge; without going into details, they are often based on perceptions, when it comes to "average people."

But again this is all irrelevant when it comes to politics, I guess.

In certain countries/culture, there always exist interferences between public opinion and foreign policies; regardless of the degree, and whether they are direct or indirect. Those interferences may be less important in Russia than, for instance, in France; but they are probably much more important in Russia than, for instance, in Iran. It more or less depends on and reflects the degree of democracy - among other factors. That may be true of Iran where public opinion is totally ignored by the authorities; when it comes to the weight of the public opinion, I would not compare Russia with Iran.

Incidentally, we had a talk with each other on this issue a couple of days ago ( on this page) in Armenian and he just reminded me the irrational, unnecessary 'expectations' sometimes some of us may have from foreigners. I guess I had forgotten my previous experience with the French… I even think it is actually more healthy and even 'wise' to be indifferent about what individuals think about Armenians. After all, it seems irrelevant in politics.

Is this pro-"Armenian" publicity campaign? With all due respect, it sounds a bit childish and, of course, pointless; especially when it states platitudes, based on common sense, that, more or less, everybody knows. No offense, but I just found your constant references to his platitudes a bit amusing!
As for the content, I believe that it is addressed by my replies above.

[North Pole]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Well, Armenian, first let me thank you for all the info and the links. I will read it.
Thank you.

I have done a lot of research regarding these types of topics. If interested, we can discuss it in another thread. Let's keep this thread geopolitical. Please.

OK, Armenian. This is a geopolitical thread and lets talk geopolitical stuff here.
But before we switch to another thread (let's open NEW one) allow me to make some short comments on your posts.

Modern linguists/historians now claim that the Sumerians spoke a language unlike another other on earth.

Does this information come from the Zecharia Sitchin books?
Did the Sumerians come from Nibiru?

What's more, based on Sumerian epics, it is known that Sumer had close relations with a northern region known as Arrata, a mystical place that was known for its metallurgy and astronomy/theology. Because historic Armenia was known to be a center of metallurgy and astronomy in the ancient world, many Armenian historians have equated this Arrata with Armenia.

The word Arrata sounds very close to Agartha.
Can Armenia be THE place where entrance to Shamballa is located?

[skhara]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

I even think it is actually more healthy and even 'wise' to be indifferent about what individuals think about Armenians. After all, it seems irrelevant in politics.

Human nature says that no-one will be indifferent, but I completely agree with acting indifferent. Fact is, everyone wants to be liked, not just Armos. Take our guests for example.

[North Pole]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Russia prepares for future combat in the Arctic

Source: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080624/111915879.html

It seems like America is freaking out because of Russia's moves.
Senator Lugar even forced his colleagues to ratify the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea:

U.S. Senator Lugar says Russia wants Arctic energy reserves

WASHINGTON, May 16 2007 (RIA Novosti) - U.S. Senator Richard G. Lugar said Russia is aspiring to take control over potential energy reserves in the Arctic Ocean at the expense of U.S. interests.

The senator, known for his anti-Russian statements, urged the U.S. authorities to join the struggle for the polar oil and gas resources by ratifying the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

The issue has acquired importance in view of dwindling global energy resources. Experts forecast that oil reserves on land would soon be exhausted and the only available fields will be in Persian Gulf and on deep sea shelves.

Lugar said Russia had claimed the right to develop the reserves, which could become more accessible due to ice melting in climate change. The Russian government is expected to meet this week to discuss hydrocarbon production on the sea.
The U.S. parliamentarian's warnings followed a statement by President George W. Bush Tuesday, which called on the Senate to ratify the convention.
Lugar said the convention had been adopted in Cold War times to protect national interests against the Soviet Union and aggressively developing countries. If ratified, the document will grant Washington control over the vast energy and fish wealth lying 200 miles off the American coast, he said.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070516/65556146.html

Now we just need to find out if Americns did ratify it.

The Cradle Of The Human Race At The North Pole

The Arctic Home Of The Vedas
READ MORE - Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Contents

[Anonymouse]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

This post is a duplication of what I posted in The Other Armenia thread.

I am tired of having to clean up threads. If any thread is derailed and taken off-topic because of personal attacks or insults, you will all be banned.

This is the only warning.

If you disagree with what someone says, offer counter-arguments and/or rebut their argument with evidence presented of your own. List comprehensively your premises for your arguments and make a conclusion.

Take a word of advice. In any argument if you get personal (1) you lose, and (2) you have a one way ticket to the banning axe.

Jesus Christ it's as if you are guys are each others imagined Turk or some such thing.

If you simply cannot engage in a discussion of disagreeing viewpoints, I suggest sticking to your respective Dashnak / anti-Dashnak threads and camps and don't interact, discuss or post anything in each other's threads.

We are one more insult away from mass bannings and I don't care who gets caught in the storm. Either buck up or the buck stops here.