Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Selpak]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Why were turks a majority in Armenia?

So you mean Turkey should clean Armenians who live in Istanbul, Hatay or Rize. It will be good respond right? Because Armenians did so. Turks should fallow Armenians path while they are cleaning.

Aliyev has repeatedly spoken about invading Karabagh

Aliyev does not speak about invading Karabagh. I think you should check it again.

That happened much later than the genocide, and was the natural reaction of Armenia's Azeri minority to Azeri pogroms of Armenians which took place earlier. And you're just changing the subject, ASALA only existed for 10 years, and has been obsolete for over 20. Think about the years between the end of the genocide (1923), and the beginning of ASALA (1975).

Turkish people had cleaned before 1909. Change ASALA with Dashnak.

What was Turkey doing those 52 years in relation to Armenians? Reaching out to them? No, they were covering up the genocide. Just one example is how they put political pressure on MGM in the 1930's, forcing them to stop production on The 40 Days of Musa Dagh. And during this time, there was no ASALA to point their finger at. You're acting like Turkey was making goodwill gestures towards Armenians during those years while the Armenians responded with terror. Armenians have no incentive to cooperate with Ankara's military government, even though Armenia's officials have repeatedly said they will have unconditional relations with Turkey, but Turkey refuses. So you see, we are not the unreasonable ones.

Turkey had no relation with Georgia too. It doesn't give them a ground for bedaubing. I know every person is different, but almost all of the diasporan Armenians are racist idiots. You don't wonder why Turkey react against Armenian's actions, do you?

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Aliyev does not speak about invading Karabagh. I think you should check it again.

Ok, he speaks about "liberating" Karabagh. But he also said that they are justified in taking any Armenian land outside of Karabagh. When the head of state and all the generals make these claims then this is an annexation policy, and this policy is de facto supported by Turkey.

Turkish people had cleaned before 1909. Change ASALA with Dashnak.

Thats funny, since the whole point of the Hamidian Massacres just a decade earlier was to abolish all autonomous Armenian regions within the Ottoman Empire (which it did more or less), so Armenians had no local rule in 1909, and thus could not carry out such acts within the Ottoman Empire. Also, Dashnaks supported the Young Turks' rise to power just 1 year earlier than the date you claim, and even then, there were still massacres of Armenians, the most notable one being in 1909 in the Adana region where over 30,000 Armenians were killed by local forces.

Turkey had no relation with Georgia too. It doesn't give them a ground for bedaubing.

I didn't say having no relations is reason for us to be against Turkey. Their global political effort to censor any dialogue on the genocide is the main reason most Armenians are against Ankara's military regime.

I know every person is different, but almost all of the diasporan Armenians are racist idiots. You don't wonder why Turkey react against Armenian's actions, do you?

Assuming that most members of a group are racist is in itself a racist notion. So no, its no wonder why Turkish officials (who share these ideas of yours) are "reacting" against Armenians actions.

Plus, I'm not a racist, I have nothing against Turks. I only have vendettas against Ankara's military regime, their political manipulators and those who blindly support them.

[barzidag]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Ok, he speaks about "liberating" Karabagh. But he also said that they are justified in taking any Armenian land outside of Karabagh. When the head of state and all the generals make these claims then this is an annexation policy, and this policy is de facto supported by Turkey.

He keeps talking about taking any Armenian land outside of Karabagh because there no official or unofficial border agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan.Also you should check the Azerbaijan map during ADR ( Azerbaijan Democratic Republic ) regime.



I am not a politician nor a fanatic party member but historically its clear that there is a border disagreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

If Azerbaijan, a nation that never existed in that region before 1918, wants to make territorial claims on lands that have been parts of various Armenian states and autonomous regions for centuries, then that alone is hardly a justification to have the lands under question. Anyone can claim anything they want; Azerbaijan's unwillingness to recognize reality and the sovereignty of others does not make their claims valid.

Even today Azerbaijan claims that Karabagh is an integral part of its country, but the region has never been under Azeri control in its history. Before 1918 there was no Azerbaijan, from 1918-1920 Karabagh did not belong to Azerbaijan, and during Soviet times it was an autonomous region which answered directly to Moscow, and not to Baku. And ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, it has maintained its own local rule. So you see, Azerbaijan makes lots of baseless claims.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

A Typical Dialog a Typical Armenian Will Have With a Typical Turk:

A typical Turk is going to start by asking: What is the problem with your people regarding us Turks?

A typical Armenian is going to reply: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenian subjects to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

The Turk is going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

The Armenian is going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population within Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

The Turk is going to reply: There was a major war at the time and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, let's all move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago...

The Armenian is going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died at the time. What happened to Armenians back then was absolutely horrible, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

The Turk is going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it's only because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us Turks in the back.

The Armenian is going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few nationalist revolutionaries who were seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

The Turk is going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say that I am very sorry all that stuff happened to your people. I am really-really sorry, but we Turks are different now, times are different now, let's move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

The Armenian is going to respond: Yes, let's move ahead. But it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem in Nagorno Karabagh should have nothing to do with Armenia's relations with Turkey.

The Turk is going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations, including that of our cousins, the Azeris. Clearly, you Armenians are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem right now. Let's get back to 'our' issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation and we are not about to give away our lands.

At this point, there are some Armenian low-lives who would reply: Very well, but please, even if it's some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a post-traumatic conditions brought upon by the genocide.

And at this point, the Turk will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek. Thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our sincere apologies and let's move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

The Armenian low-lives will respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be good neighbors and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we will look forward to being your neighbors.

And at this point, Armenian nationalists will tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri cousins, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never again live side-by-side. What's more, as long as the Turkish government occupies our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow, there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

The point is, discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished. All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works.

Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to whitewash and make excuses for what happened back then and wants us to move forward.

I far as I am concerned, its simple: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime. Nevertheless, this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about reconciliation with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk.

As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as explaining and convincing anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and today - there are none. It's that simple. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..."

This man in Yerevan says it best:

[robertik1]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

A Typical Dialog a Typical Armenian Will Have With a Typical Turk:

A typical Turk is going to start by asking: What is the problem with your people regarding us Turks?

A typical Armenian is going to reply: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenian subjects to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

The Turk is going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

The Armenian is going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population within Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

The Turk is going to reply: There was a major war at the time and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, let's all move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago...

The Armenian is going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died at the time. What happened to Armenians back then was absolutely horrible, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

The Turk is going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it's only because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us Turks in the back.

The Armenian is going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few nationalist revolutionaries who were seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

The Turk is going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say that I am very sorry all that stuff happened to your people. I am really-really sorry, but we Turks are different now, times are different now, let's move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

The Armenian is going to respond: Yes, let's move ahead. But it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem in Nagorno Karabagh should have nothing to do with Armenia's relations with Turkey.

The Turk is going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations, including that of our cousins, the Azeris. Clearly, you Armenians are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem right now. Let's get back to 'our' issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation and we are not about to give away our lands.

At this point, there are some Armenian low-lives who would reply: Very well, but please, even if it's some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a post-traumatic conditions brought upon by the genocide.

And at this point, the Turk will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek. Thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our sincere apologies and let's move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

The Armenian low-lives will respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be good neighbors and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we will look forward to being your neighbors.

And at this point, Armenian nationalists will tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri cousins, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never again live side-by-side. What's more, as long as the Turkish government occupies our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow, there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

The point is, discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished. All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works.

Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to whitewash and make excuses for what happened back then and wants us to move forward.

I far as I am concerned, its simple: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime. Nevertheless, this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about reconciliation with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk.

As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as explaining and convincing anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and today - there are none. It's that simple. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..."

This man in Yerevan says it best:

Agree completely Armenian.

[lampron]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

we???? are we a parasite of humanity???

You can talk! Armenians try to get good relations with Russia,USA,France,Belgium,Switchzerland,Brazil and many countries with adulatory! you are a parasite for The world!
But don't forget! USA and Russia are a rivals for themselves, Either of them or Both of them can blow the whistle on agent! For instance, in Stalin age, socialist Russian Goverment provide diaspora Armenians to come back and tried to use your nation to occupy our east and northeast parts..But failed, after that Russian goverment blow the whistle on Armenians as a secret western agent who came from western states.. your people were banished to Sibiria!! Don't trust Russia or others and us too
Hey, by the way I have heard on news "Armenia want to "Sevr League" perform!!!
Is it possible???? Forget it! 2.975.000 populated Armenia can not defate 72.825.000 populated Turkey! Also Greece 13.725 populated!! Also we have
more young people and more powerful soldiers And You should include 7.000.000 populated Azerbejian and South Azerbejian (25.000.000 Populated)
If we want to occupy your land, I will be finished an half day!
But Turkish Nation doesn't want to fight with Armenia or others...Why don't you give up your aggressive politics ?
And also No Turk is alive from 1915 as we are youngs and we are not responsible for history

this kind of debate is not taking us anywhere. Let's remember that most Turks and Armenians today want to get on with each other! There will be no more wars..no-one wants a war between Armenia and Turkey or Armenia and Azerbaijan. Not the US, EU, Russia, Iran.Talks, discussions, exchanges. Turkey and Armenia are heading for better relations. It's better to leave territorial questions with Turkey for the future. Azerbaijan should recognize the right of the Karabakh Armenian majority to be independent. Hopefully Turkey's new leaders will encourage Azerbaijan to be more flexible

[lampron]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished. All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works.

Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to whitewash and make excuses for what happened back then and wants us to move forward.

I far as I am concerned, its simple: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime.

It is true that a crime was committed and there should be some form of compensation a closure. The real world is more complex. In Turkey there are staunch nationalists whose voice gets louder each time Armenians demand punishment. There are Turkish moderates who accept that terrible things happened. There is no need to provoke the Turkish nationalists. By leaving aside territorial demands, we strengthen the position of Turkish moderates. In time, leaders like Erdogan might allow Armenians to repair churches in Ani, Kars and Erzerum. Inflammatory words help no-one, absolutely no one! Not the thousands of Armenians who live in Turkey, or those thousands who go on vacation to Turkey.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How can such a thing even be considered???
------------------------------------------
Gul going to mediate between Armenian and Azeri Presidents
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Turkish President Abdullah Gul intends to mediate tensions between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Gul was quoted saying by Hurriyet daily.

He is planning a visit to Azerbaijan in the near future. “I have enlisted support of my Armenian counterpart Serzh Sargsyan to arrange the meeting. And I am hopeful to receive consent from Azerbaijan’s Ilham Aliyev. I will meet with him soon to discuss the details and will brief on the outcomes of my visit to Armenia,” Gul said.

Turkish experts do not rule out that Presidents of Armenia, Russia, Turkey and Azerbaijan can meet to discuss the Nagorno Karabakh conflict.

Gul was in Yerevan on Sept. 6 to watch a World Cup qualifier between the Armenian and Turkish national teams. Before the match, the heads of state discussed possibilities to normalize bilateral relations. "We hope we will be able to demonstrate goodwill to solve the problems between our countries and not leave them to future generations," Armenian President Sargsyan said after the meeting.

From http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=26968

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How can such a thing even be considered???
------------------------------------------
Gul going to mediate between Armenian and Azeri Presidents
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Turkish President Abdullah Gul intends to mediate tensions between Armenia and Azerbaijan, Gul was quoted saying by Hurriyet daily.

He is planning a visit to Azerbaijan in the near future. “I have enlisted support of my Armenian counterpart Serzh Sargsyan to arrange the meeting. And I am hopeful to receive consent from Azerbaijan’s Ilham Aliyev. I will meet with him soon to discuss the details and will brief on the outcomes of my visit to Armenia,” Gul said.

Turkish experts do not rule out that Presidents of Armenia, Russia, Turkey and Azerbaijan can meet to discuss the Nagorno Karabakh conflict.

Gul was in Yerevan on Sept. 6 to watch a World Cup qualifier between the Armenian and Turkish national teams. Before the match, the heads of state discussed possibilities to normalize bilateral relations. "We hope we will be able to demonstrate goodwill to solve the problems between our countries and not leave them to future generations," Armenian President Sargsyan said after the meeting.

From http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=26968

In non diplomatic wording, Armenia and turkey are looking into opening the borders, at least somewhat, and ankara wants to comfort the babies in baku.