Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

In non diplomatic wording, Armenia and turkey are looking into opening the borders, at least somewhat, and ankara wants to comfort the babies in baku.

I think it's more that that. Turkey wouldn't give two shits about trading with tiny Armenia. With Georgia and the Black Sea region unstable, Turkey is seeking an alternative access to Azerbaijan, Russia and beyond. For Ankara, Armenia currently is the only logical option for this. And Moscow is not objecting because it controls Armenia on all levels, thus it is not afraid of Armenia breaking away from Moscow's orbit. In short, Ankara wants to get to Azerbaijan and beyond - through Armenia. It's going to be very complicated, to say the least. However, all this means that there will be serious work done in the near future to resolve the Nagorno Karabagh problem.

[Palavra]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey will not open borders. There is not any reason for this.(I am not even looking for a good reason.)

This last meeting is for show. It wont change politics of both country.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkish Journalist Says Border Opening Unlikely Without ‘Progress’ on Karabakh

By Ruzanna Stepanian

A Turkish journalist writing for one of the world’s leading newsmagazines calls it unimaginable that any government in her country will reopen the land border with Armenia without “being able to report some progress on the Nagorno-Karabakh issue.”

In an interview with RFE/RL Amberin Zaman, who is the Turkey correspondent for The Economist and wife of US Charge d’Affaires in Armenia Joseph Pennington, said that in taking that step Turkey would need to tell the Turkish public and Azerbaijan that “this is helping move forward the peace process in Nagorno-Karabakh.”

“Because that’s indeed why the border was closed in the first place,” explains Zaman, who is also the columnist for the Turkish daily newspaper Taraf and had worked for such leading newspapers and media organizations as the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the Voice of America, the Daily Telegraph, also covering as reporter the 1992-1994 war in Karabakh.

“But I think that the primary goal is to establish diplomatic ties and the fact that Armenia and Turkey will be talking officially and openly will certainly have an impact on helping serve Karabakh.”

Turkey closed its border with Armenia in 1993 out of solidarity with its Turkic ally Azerbaijan that was suffering military defeats from ethnic Armenians fighting in Nagorno-Karabakh for independence from Baku.

The unresolved Armenian-Azerbaijani dispute and the Armenian campaign for international recognition of the 1915 mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide continue to be the main obstacles to the normalization of bilateral ties between the two neighboring states.

Still, Zaman points out the existing ties between Armenia and Turkey, including direct air links and the opportunity for Armenian ships to call at Turkish seaports. She says that unlike the opening of the whole land border, the reestablishment of the rail link does not appear that unimaginable given the recent war in Georgia.

“Turkey can say that it is reopening this rail in order to help send humanitarian supplies to help with the reconstruction of Georgia and indeed Azerbaijan too, because the disruption of rail links has had a very negative impact not only on Armenia, but also on Azerbaijan. So Turkey can step in and say it is doing it for regional peace. So that would not be unimaginable,” Zaman says.

“As for opening the land border, I don’t see that happening in the immediate future. And I think there has to be some give on Karabakh before that happens.”

Overall, the Turkish journalist believes that both Armenia and Turkey have every reason to be “extremely optimistic about the way things are going.”

She describes the recent visit of the Turkish leader to Armenia as “a historical moment” in relations between the two countries.

“I believe that the visit went extremely smoothly. I had the opportunity to actually see both presidents during halftime. They seemed incredibly relaxed, very happy, they sounded extremely cordial and the messages that we heard after the match from both sides were extremely positive,” Zaman says.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul visited Yerevan on September 6 at his Armenian counterpart Serzh Sarkisian’s invitation to watch a World Cup qualifier between the two countries’ national football teams. The visit was taken as a significant step towards the normalization of historically strained Armenian-Turkish relations.

“There was a lot of risk taking on both sides,” says Zaman, praising both leaders for “courageous decisions”.

“I think it was an extremely courageous decision on the part of President Sarkisian to extend this hand of friendship. It was politically risky given the domestic political situation here [in Armenia]. And certainly [it was] quite risky for Abdullah Gul too, because he wasn’t quite sure what he’d face in Armenia.”

While acknowledging how important the genocide issue is viewed by Armenians, Zaman also thinks that “there will be so much else that will be discussed that people will stop focusing on this issue.”

“It is because we haven’t been talking that the conversation has been dominated by the genocide issue,” she says.

“I think that Turkish people deep down know that some terrible things happened in their country to the Armenian people who were part of our country, who were sons of our soil, just as we are, and I think there is this recognition that it’s time to heal the wounds of the past.”

From http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeni...0DE171CB27.ASP

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

So not only is bryza married to a turk, but also pennigton. Why the heck haven't Armenian officials questioned the neutrality of these people?

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

We Armenians should not be afraid of approaching Ankara with an open mind. There has been a serious/major geopolitical shift in the region and we as a nation need to adjust to it, lest we end up last in the line again. Had the recent warming in relations between Yerevan and Ankara been attempted before the recent crisis in the region, I would have been totally against it for reasons that I have previously outlined. The recent developments between Ankara and Yerevan would not have occurred had there not been a major crisis between the West and the Russian Federation and had Moscow not been able to crush the West's political agenda in Georgia. Let's make no mistake about it, this is the dawning of a new era in regional politics. As a result, Ankara is finally realizing that it needs better relations with Yerevan despite strong complaints from Turkish nationalists and Baku. Yerevan is also realizing that it has to at least be open to Ankara and seriously discuss issues at hand. None of this means that all issues are solved and there are no problems anymore. This is just an initial, or preliminary, trial stage. Moreover, and more importantly, none of this means that our Hai Dat or the status of Nagorno Karabagh will have to be compromised. There is no talk about abandoning Armenian Genocide recognition and there is no talk about pulling out of Nagorno Karabagh, and there won't be. I want to mention here that the Hai Dat, in particular, needs to be looked upon by all Armenians not only as a form of revenge but also and primarily as a 'political tool' used for Armenia's benefit. Nonetheless, we need to better understand ourselves (better understand Armenia's strengths and weaknesses) as much as we need to better understand the enemy. Let's never underestimate the enemy and overestimate ourselves. Doing so, as we have experienced in the past, is suicidal. For small fledgling nations like us, there is a time to fight and there is a time to back down from a fight. We need to pick our fights wisely. These are very complicated times in politics. We need to approach these matters in an unemotional manner, in a pragmatic manner and we need to approach it with Armenia's future in mind. I personally had a hard time watching the Turkish national anthem being sung in Yerevan, not to mention losing the game to them, but in the big geopolitical picture I am willing to swallow my personal pride for Armenia's sake and hope that our politicians in Yerevan don't screw this one up.

One thing is for certain, Moscow would never allow Yerevan to open up to Ankara if it did not directly or indirectly control the situation on the ground, especially now that it has fully reimposed itself in the Caucasus region. Signs that Moscow is fully behind (or actively supporting) the warming of relations between Yerevan and Ankara are quite clear. It perfectly fits Moscow's regional agenda. It seems as if Moscow is attempting to drive a wedge between the West and Turkey and one of the tools they seem to be using is Armenia, with the others being energy supplies and trade. Remember that Serj Sargsyan reached his hand out to Ankara right after his meetings with Medvedev and during a public speech while in Moscow last month. Moreover, Turkey proposed the Caucasus union/pact in the immediate aftermath of the war in Georgia, a war during which Ankara indirectly supported Russia's actions. Moreover, Washington, Turkish nationalists and Azeris are signaling their displeasure about Ankara's proposal. Moreover, Moscow has been clearly signaling that it is in favor of the proposal and is now in fact for the opening of the Armenian-Turkey border - this after years of remaining silent about it.

The Georgian war has in effect severed Turkey's access to Central Asian energy, and it has also negatively effected Ankara's trade with Russia. It's important to note here that Russia and Turkey have a very lucrative multi-billion dollar annual trade. Naturally, Ankara desperately needs reliable access to oil and gas as well as its lucrative trade with Russia. So, Turkey is being compelled to turn its back on Washington and look to Russia for survival as it seeks an alternative land route to Russia and eastward. Since Iran is a major regional player and a serious competitor to Turkey, not to mention under constant threat of a war, Ankara will not put itself in a position where it has to depend on Tehran. In essence, by default, this leaves Armenia as the only nation in the region that securely holds the eastern gates. And since Ankara cannot threaten Armenia militarily due to the strong Russian presence in the country, Ankara is in a sense forced to approach Yerevan with a peace proposal. Due to the war in Georgia and due to the high tensions in the Black Sea region, Ankara and Moscow have found that Armenia would be a good and logical alternative route for their trade. Eventually, due to geographic reasons, they will attempt to drag Azerbaijan into this as well. I don't believe any of this will have a negative impact on the status of Nagorno Karabagh. Nonetheless, they are currently trying to prepare the playing field in Armenia.

The current developments we are witnessing in Turkish-Armenian relations were gradually put together by Moscow during the several months preceding the war in Georgia. Turks and Armenians were made aware of the impending situation and they were made an offer they simply could not refuse. After the war, all the sides in question knew their responsibilities, their expectations, their lines, just like in a well rehearsed theatrical play. Now we are in the opening act of that theatrical play. Besides the surprising news that Armenia will be selling electricity to Turkey there is now talk about the possibility of resuming the Kars-Gyumri railway. Russia, according to some sources, is in support of these deals and may in fact be encouraging them. More significantly, as I predicted, there is also talk about the construction of a new pipeline going through Armenia. I don't want to make any conclusions at this time, but if our politicians can properly manage this complex situation, Armenia can potentially become a major regional power. Also take into consideration that Russia wants to build a new nuclear power station in Armenia; it wants to exploit uranium in Armenia; it wants to build a railway from Iran to Russia through Armenia; and it wants to build an oil refinery plant in Armenia. Just think about these proposed projects. As I said earlier, I feel that Armenia is now more secure militarily and politically than it has ever been in its modern history. Without a doubt, Armenia is gradually becoming a major regional player. Barring some unforeseen Russian withdrawal from the Caucasus region, Armenia will continue to grow in stature. The only problem that is hindering our forward progression at this time remains our fragile economy. Perhaps the aforementioned are the reasons why I am no longer terrified of opening our borders with Turkey.

Armenian

**************************

Opening of Armenian-Turkish border should be a Russian but not a U.S. project

Some warming between Yerevan and Ankara is favorable. The Armenian-Turkish relations need gradual normalization, Andrey Areshev, expert at Strategic Culture Foundation said in an interview with PanARMENIAN.Net. “Consultations of diplomats are no longer a secret. Russian concessionaires of the Armenian Railways announced readiness to reconstruct Kars-Gyumri line. Foreign media circulated information that some oil companies negotiate construction of a gas pipeline with Armenia. The Ayrum-Gyumri-Akhuryan route (bypassing Georgia) is being discussed. Certainly, these are just variants but Georgia’s destructive role in the region becomes more and more evident not only for Russia or Iran but also for U.S. allies, such as Turkey, and the key EU countries, which are concerned over their energy security,” he said. “Possible normalization of the Armenian-Turkish relations and partial opening of the border should not be used as an argument for withdrawal of the Russian military base from Armenia. Furthermore, opening of the border should be a Russian but not a U.S. project,” Areshev emphasized. “The Armenian authorities’ flirtation with the U.S. and NATO, the forthcoming joint exercise in September are quite understandable as a part of complementary policy pursued by the republic. However, it’s clear that the west will use Caucasian nations as active storage (Georgia is a vivid example) Cooling with Russia in exchange for attractive offers can have deplorable consequences for Armenia and NKR’s security. The Karabakh conflict can’t be resolved with NATO’s assistance. Partial restoration of Russia’s positions in the Caucasus, Turkey and Iran’s firm opposition to resumption of hostilities may push Baku to search for more adequate way to resolve the Karabakh conflict. However, it will not happen before the presidential election in Azerbaijan,” he concluded.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=27006

Armenia, Turkey Sign Energy Deal

Armenia has signed a deal to supply electricity to Turkey from the beginning of 2009, Armenian Energy Minister Armen Movsisian said Wednesday. Movsisian told reporters that the deal will see electricity from Armenian thermal power plants supplied to eastern Turkey. "An agreement on this was reached during the recent visit of the Turkish President Abdullah Gul," he said."Turkey is a new market for Armenia, as Armenia last supplied electricity to this country during the Soviet period." Discussions to begin selling energy to Turkey, which Armenia currently has no diplomatic ties with, took place during Turkish President Abdullah Gul's visit to Yerevan over the weekend to watch a soccer match between the two countries' national teams. The deal was signed between Armenia's state-owned High Voltage Electricity Network company and a privately owned Turkish firm called UNIT, Movsisian said. He said the infrastructure was in place on the Armenian side to deliver the electricity but that repairs to transmission lines and the installation of a new transformer in Turkey would take four to five months. He said Armenia would initially supply 1.5 billion kilowatts per hour of electricity to Turkey and that the amount would eventually increase to 3.5 billion kilowatts per hour. Turkey's Foreign Minister, Ali Babacan said Wednesday that if Turkey and Armenia forge diplomatic ties and are seen to have good relations, other countries could well stop passing resolutions condemning Ottoman Turks for committing genocide against their Armenian population in 1915-1923. Foreign Minister Ali Babacan said in a television interview that after the Turkish president's breakthrough visit to Armenia on Saturday, the two countries had stepped up efforts to resolve their differences. Historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were massacred in 1915-28 in Ottoman Turkey in the first genocide of the 20th Century. About 20 parliaments have passed resolutions reiterating this fact. Turkey denies any genocide, saying the death toll has been inflated and the dead were victims of civil war and unrest. Turkey lobbies vigorously against any legislature that handles a bill that recognizes the Genocide. Last year, President George W. Bush narrowly prevented the passage of a nonbinding resolution to that effect in the U.S. Congress. He warned lawmakers that it would imperil Turkey's logistic support for U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Turkey closed its border with Armenia in 1993 in protest over its support for Nagorno Karabakh's struggle for independence from Azerbaijan, a Turkish ally. In addition, Mount Ararat and much of eastern Turkey is western Armenia. "If we manage to make rapid progress in our initiative to solve the problems," Babacan told the local channel NTV, "then there will be no need for third country parliaments to discuss these issues. We can tell them: 'Mind your own business. Armenia and Turkey are getting along well.'" He declined to say which problem the two governments would tackle first, saying all the issues must be laid on the table. Armenia "has a solution-focused position," Babacan said. "There is a political will on both sides for a solution." He added he might take part in a tripartite meeting with the Azerbaijani and Armenian foreign ministers on the sidelines of the upcoming U.N. General Assembly in New York. Turkey's closure of its border with landlocked Armenia is known to have hurt the smaller country's economy.

Source: http://www.asbarez.com/index.html?sh...n&ASBSC=Closed

[Palavra]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Yerevan is also realizing that it has to at least be open to Ankara and seriously discuss issues at hand. None of this means that all issues are solved and there are no problems anymore. This is just an initial, or preliminary, trial stage. Moreover, and more importantly, none of this means that our Hai Dat or the status of Nagorno Karabagh will have to be compromised. There is no talk about abandoning Armenian Genocide recognition and there is no talk about pulling out of Nagorno Karabagh, and there won't be. I want to mention here that the Hai Dat, in particular, needs to be looked upon by all Armenians not only as a form of revenge but also and primarily as a 'political tool' used for Armenia's benefit.

Pardon me but so what do you offer for negotiations? what is the gain of Turkey or azerbaijan? Dont tell me, gas. Turkey is already dependent russia. I dont think, Turkey will prefer to depend armenia.(puppet state of russia)

One thing is for certain, Moscow would never allow Yerevan to open up to Ankara if it did not directly or indirectly control the situation on the ground, especially now that it has fully reimposed itself in the Caucasus region. Signs that Moscow is fully behind (or actively supporting) the warming of relations between Yerevan and Ankara are quite clear. It perfectly fits Moscow's regional agenda. It seems as if Moscow is attempting to drive a wedge between the West and Turkey and one of the tools they seem to be using is Armenia, with the others being energy supplies and trade. Remember that Serj Sargsyan reached his hand out to Ankara right after his meetings with Medvedev and during a public speech while in Moscow last month. Moreover, Turkey proposed the Caucasus union/pact in the immediate aftermath of the war in Georgia, a war during which Ankara indirectly supported Russia's actions.

Turkey was not supporting russia. Officially, She is neutral. Unofficially, pro georgian.

Since Iran is a major regional player and a serious competitor to Turkey, not to mention under constant threat of a war, Ankara will not put itself in a position where it has to depend on Tehran.

Ankara will prefer iran over armenia. Iran-Turkey relationship has not much problem except USA. If Turkey left USA side, She would prefer iran.It is funny you think, ankara is more near to yerevan than tahran.

Also last visit is mostly USA politics. USA is trying to gain armenia. It has not much relation with Turkey. Also there was not much opposition against visit.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, Baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa, baaa,..

I've always found it difficult to talk to mentally retarded Anatolian mountain goats on the other side of the fence -

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

In an interview with RFE/RL Amberin Zaman, who is the Turkey correspondent for The Economist and wife of US Charge d’Affaires in Armenia Joseph Pennington, said that in taking that step Turkey would need to tell the Turkish public and Azerbaijan that “this is helping move forward the peace process in Nagorno-Karabakh.”

Yet another Judeo-Saxon devil in the manner of the defuct Stanford Shaw, Thomas Goltz: the scambug who fabricated the insignificant Khojaly incident scam, Mattjew Brazen, etc., with a Turk whore, screwing with what's none of their Talmudic business.

“As for opening the land border, I don’t see that happening in the immediate future. And I think there has to be some give on Karabakh before that happens.”

The Artsakh issue was solved in 1994. We have nothing to give the genocidal Turk savages, but a lot to take and any “give” will be to the detriment of Armenia.

I hope with the current developments, Armenia will not once more fall in the same trap they did throughout history and refrain from ceding territory to the sore “Azeri” losers and perpetrators of genocide and war. Nor shall any peace treaty signed between Armenia and Azerbaboons deal with recognition of borders of fake “Azerbaijan”, a country that has never existed in history as a subject of international law before 1991. Rather a conference in the style of Sèvres must be held where the delineation of borders will follow according to the ethnographic data of 1920.

“I think that Turkish people deep down know that some terrible things happened in their country to the Armenian people who were part of our country, who were sons of our soil, just as we are, and I think there is this recognition that it’s time to heal the wounds of the past.”

It's not your country, neither is it your soil. Get the fuck out of my home and crawl back to Mongolia, the fucking hell you crept from and the hell you fucking belong. Siktir!

[Palavra]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I've always found it difficult to talk to mentally retarded Anatolian mountain goats on the other side of the fence -

arent orginal anatolians armenians.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

arent orginal anatolians armenians.

He said "mentally retarded", that is the turkish breed.