Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

arent orginal anatolians armenians.

I'm sick of this Cacatolia thing!

While Armenians have lived all over Asia Minor since times unknown, the Armenian nation originated in the Armenian Highland, the eastern half of Turk occupied territory founded on genocide and called Turkey, until the Caspian in the east.

Anatolia or Asia Minor is the peninsula; the western half of the Turk occupied territory founded on genocide and called Turkey, which ends at the 38th eastern meridian where the Armenian Highland starts.

Here an exercise for everyone that confounds Armenia with Cacatolia, repeat it a hundred times a day:

Armenia was NEVER part of Anatolia.
Armenia is OUTSIDE Anatolia.
Anatolia is OUTSIDE Armenia.
Armenia has NEVER been inside Anatolia.
Armenia has ALWAYS been outside Anatolia.
Anatolia has NEVER included Armenia.
Anatolia excludes Armenia.
Armenia is excluded from Anatolia.
Armenia and Anatolia are excluded from one another.
Armenia and Anatolia are not included in the same region.
Armenian western border touches the eastern border of Anatolia.
Anatolian eastern border touches the western border of Armenia.
When you are inside Anatolia you are OUTSIDE Armenia.
When you are inside Armenia you are OUTSIDE Anatolia.
Armenia and Anatolia are not the same.
Anatolia and Armenia are not the same.
Armenia and Anatolia are two DISTINCT geographical regions.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

He said "mentally retarded"...

You forgot to add the mountain goat part.

I'm sick of this Cacatolia thing!

Be careful with "Cacatolia" it will be translated by Turks as Jajatolia. The letter C has a J sound (as in joke) Turkish. So, it should rather be - Kakatolia.

Anyway, I somewhat disagree with your stance on the "Anatolian" issue. Anatolia has never had boundaries. It was never a geopolitical term. In ancient times, the term simply referred to a general region known as Asia Minor. Armenia has been, is and will continue being in Asia Minor/Anatolia. Also, the word Anatolia itself means east (or, where the sun rises) in the Greek language. So, in the big picture it's no big deal. Western Armenia, Historic Armenia, Greater Armenia, Armenian Highlands, however we want to refer to it, is located in Asia Minor and it also comprises of Anatolia and the Caucasus.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It's a difficult step to start warming relations with the Turks. But, we have to take in account our region. The Karabakh problem with Azerbaijan will last for years and any advancment in our relations with the them will not take place any time soon. The conflict in Georgia has slowed down and disrupted the Armenian economy greatly, most of our supplies come through Georgia. Also, our warm relations with Russia while us bordering Georgia throught which we recieve many supplies is a tricky one. Fortunately, Iran has been good with us and we have been able to recieve gas and supplies from them. And of course until now our border with Turkey is closed. What does this show? We are in a very fragile position. Warm relations with Turkey which might lead up to the opening of the border with them is essential for our survival in the Caucaus region. We have to make sacrafices to make our country better. Open borders with them would mean huge economic passage from Europe and other Western countries.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenia might give up occupied territory – Turkish president

Armenia may give up occupied Azerbaijani territory in near future according to Turkish President Abdullah Gul who says he “sees new opportunities for settling the conflict in Azerbaijan's breakaway province of Nagorno-Karabakh”.

The Turkish leader made the comments after both Armenia’s capital Yerevan and Azerbaijani capital Baku.

A settlement of the long running conflict could enable the region to play a more prominent role in energy transportation projects with Gul stating “If the mood of cooperation prevails in the region over hostility, it will serve the interests of all countries in the Caucasus,” and noting that the Armenian and Azerbaijani leaders are on good terms with each other.

Standstill broken

On September 6 the Turkish president spent several hours in Yerevan at the invitation of his Armenian counterpart Serzh Sargsyan, attending the qualification match of the 2010 FIFA World Cup between Armenian and Turkish teams.

It was the first visit by a Turkish head of state to Armenia for more than 70 years. Armenia is striving to secure worldwide recognition of the 1915 Genocide by the Ottoman Turks.

Turkey abandoned diplomatic ties with Armenia upon its declaration of independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. The border between the two countries was then shut by the Turkish government, when the Nagorno-Karabakh crisis erupted in the region.

Age-long dispute

While both sides express their commitment to a peaceful solution, it is yet unclear what form this could have. In the wake of recent events in Kosovo, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, recognition of the de facto independence of Nagorno-Karabakh (or Artsakh as its citizens prefer to call themselves) can’t be ruled out.

Подпись Map of Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh). 'AZ' marks areas controlled by Azerbaijan.

Territorial ownership of Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh) – a region that is inhabited mainly by Armenian population – is a heavily disputed issue between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Having been under the control of various empires which have held sway in the area since the Assyrians in 800BC, the region began the 20th century as part of the Russian Empire. Following the Bolshevik revolution it became a scene of a series of brutal conflicts between 1918-1922. The violence subsided only in 1922, when a friendship treaty made Turkey and the Soviet Union guarantors of peace in the region, which soon became an actual part of the USSR.

When glasnost was declared by Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, in 1985, leaders of the Regional Soviet of Karabakh voted in favor of unifying the autonomous region with Armenia, claiming that Azerbaijan had attempted to ‘Azerify’ the region.

Gorbachev flatly refused a border change, fearing it would set a dangerous precedent. Soon after, ethnic infighting began both in Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh), where Armenians evicted many Azeri, and in other parts of Azerbaijan, where dozens of Armenians were killed and thousands forced to migrate.

Similar skirmishes followed in Armenia soon evolved into a full-scale war in the region. Despite a considerable advantage, in terms of military personnel and arms, on the Azerbaijani side, by the time a 1994 ceasefire was signed Armenian forces controlled not only most of the Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh) but also some 14% of the rest of Azerbaijan’s territory.

But Armenia may be ready to give up Azerbaijani territory it is occupying according to the Turkish leader.

Armenia to supply power into Turkey

Another major result from Gul’s visit to Yerevan was agreement on the resumption of power deliveries to parts of Eastern Turkey, which were halted after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Deliveries through power transmission lines via the city of Kars – idle since early 1990s – are expected to resume in the near future. An agreement with a price of $US 0,057 per kWh has been signed between the two state energy companies.

“Cooperation between the two countries in power supplies has been agreed upon at the top state level,” Armenian Minister of Energy and Natural Resources Armen Movsesyan told Itar-Tass.

From http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/30343

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Disinformation, lies, is a tactic commonly used by Turkish officials. It serves two fundamental purposes; it creates strife in the enemy camp as it alleviates the concerns of its constituency. This is common practice in Ankara.

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Be careful with "Cacatolia" it will be translated by Turks as Jajatolia. The letter C has a J sound (as in joke) Turkish. So, it should rather be - Kakatolia.

Anyway, I somewhat disagree with your stance on the "Anatolian" issue. Anatolia has never had boundaries. It was never a geopolitical term. In ancient times, the term simply referred to a general region known as Asia Minor. Armenia has been, is and will continue being in Asia Minor/Anatolia. Also, the word Anatolia itself means east (or, where the sun rises) in the Greek language. So, in the big picture it's no big deal. Western Armenia, Historic Armenia, Greater Armenia, Armenian Highlands, however we want to refer to it, is located in Asia Minor and it also comprises of Anatolia and the Caucasus.

I really have to disagree with you here Armenian. This is not just about the political side of the issue. As far as borders, Anatolia or Asia Minor as I said is the peninsula, hence Asia Minor, little Asia, because the peninsula is a litle continent with the shape of Asia. As far as I know from reliable sources, it ends at the 38th eastern meridian where the Armenian Highland starts.

I know Anatolia means east in Greek, I have mentioned this probably a couple hundred times on different boards wherever I have come across the despicable, genocidal term “Eastern Anatolia” (= eastern east = bullshit). In fact, I used to make my “Eastern Anatolian” bet with Turks who used this insolent term to describe Armenia.

By calling Armenia Anatolia or the other disgusting term, they actually go a step further in erasing the name of Armenia, a term even they used (Ermenistan, with Arabic script) in pre-Genocide Ottoman maps to describe the region where the six vilayets are situated.

I suggest we refrain from using Anatolia (the other one is totally shameful) for Armenia that's under Turk occupation. I don't particularly like the term “Western Armenia” either. I prefer Turk occupied Armenia and I wish I could make Armenians see why this is much better.

I hate it when they say “in Armenia and Artsakh” as if Artsakh is outside Armenia.

The other genocidal term, this time invented by Russians when they took the areas north of Iran with the help of Armenian generals, is “Transcaucasus” or “South Caucasus”. Where the Persian Empire referred to the region north of Arax as Armenia, our dear Russian uncles erased the name Armenia, abolished the Melikdoms of Karabakh (where Safavids, Nader Shah and Qajars tolerated and even supported them) and invented the counterfeit term “Transcaucasus”. The Caucasus ends in the south with the Caucasus Mountains and the River Kur has been the border between Aghvank and Armenia throughout history, witnessed by historians of all creeds, ethnicities and epochs. I have dealt with all this in And the Fraud Had a Name.

If you think of all countries that include Eastern/Western or Northern/Southern in their designation, you'll find out something's wrong; examples:

Eastern/Western Germany; Northern/Southern Korea; Northern/Southern Ossetia; the most ridiculous of these being “North Azerbaijan”/ “South Azerbaijan”, where there's only one Azarbaijan (Atrpatakan), the real one which is called so since 2300 years and the fake nonentity, counterfeited on Armenian territory in 1918.

There's no Eastern USA, Western USA, a country that's almost ten million square kilometers large. The bear with the largest ass on the planet never calls itself Eastern Russia, Western Russia. Of course you can say east of USA, west of Russia, etc.

Armenia Bible map. Note that Armenia Minor is not presented here. Click on the map for a larger version

P.S. I write Cacatolia because caca is the right spelling for shit in European languages like in French. To hell with what Turks pronounce in their primitive gibberish

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Medvedev Sargsyan Meeting

Medvedev: You will make friends with the Turk.

Sargsyan: Say what?!

Medvedev: I said you <<will>> make friends with the Turk <<and>> you will invite him over to your house.

...

Sargsyan: You also want me to sit next to that Turk?

Medvedev: I'm afraid so Tavarish, and you will do it with a smile.

Sargsyan: Ay qez ban...

...

Lukashenko: Hehehe, I hear you will be hosting someone very very special tomorrow...

Sargsyan: Ah, xxxx you.

...

Sargsyan: Efendi Gul, we are so pleased to have you here...

...

When pictures say more than a thousand words....

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Warm relations with Turkey which might lead up to the opening of the border with them is essential for our survival in the Caucaus region.

Essential for our progress as a nation is the implementation of international law regarding the border between Turkey and Armenia. The only valid document concerning this is the Wilson arbitration which, among others, will allow:

I. Armenia to have enough surface to neutralize pan-Turkism,

II. the Armenian nation to gather in one homeland, saving the dying Diaspora, the result of the Genocide and the refusal of Turkey to abide by its obligations regarding the Wilsonian border,

III. enough resources for a nation to prosper, in terms of tourism, agriculture, energy lines that cross the region, etc.,

IV. access to the Black Sea, which will once and for all exclude the possibility of a blockade by our bloodthirsty enemies or the disruption of transport of goods every time a fire cracker goes off in Georgia,

IV. It will alleviate our losses in sentimental terms: Mount Ararat, Kars, Ani, Lake Van, etc., falling within Wilsonian Armenia.

We have to make sacrafices to make our country better. Open borders with them would mean huge economic passage from Europe and other Western countries.

No more sacrifices! We’ve done more than enough during the past three thousand years. If Turkey drops a couple hundred million Turk desecrated dollars into the Armenian economy buying concerns, setting up medium-big businesses and factories, we have to say bye, bye to our millennia old nation. Do we have a strategic policy like, say, Japan to prevent an influx of pestilential Turks or such brutal takeover of Armenia by the genocidal Turk vermin that’s been sucking our blood the last thousand years?

Armenia as it exists now will never present the possibility of growth and progress in economical, political and military terms for the Armenian nation, given the peculiarity of the region. Not just the size, otherwise Switzerland which is about the size of Armenia (liberated Artsakh taken into account), has no access to sea and has four neighbors (clockwise): Germany, Austria, Italy and France, like in case of Armenia (clockwise): Georgia, fake “Azerbaijan”, Iran and Furkey (arpa won't mind), but what a difference four neighbors make...

Of all four possibilities for us to get justice albeit partly, namely: economical, political, military and legal, we will never make it in the three former categories as long as Armenia is in its present form. We have the upper hand only in legal terms and that's the Wilson arbitration which is a legally watertight document. I hope sooner or later the Armenian statesmen will realize the importance of this issue and slowly but surely raise it in order for it to take its course.

Shall I remind us once more that this has nothing to do with the recognition of the Armenian Genocide and is by no means compensation for it, rather a purely legal matter that needs to be resolved by the ceding of the territory according to the document? Reparations for the destruction of our nation, civilization, monuments and delaying of our progress due to 88 year occupation of Wilsonian Armenia we will demand when Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide, whenever that may be. They will surely be more flexible when the Wilsonian border has become reality, because Armenia will finally be able to develop its economical, political and military might.

More regarding the Wilson arbitration issue

Concerning Lausanne I

Concerning Lausanne II

Wilsonian Armenia, long overdue. For 88 years Turkey has been illegally occupying Armenian territory and using its resources for which they also have to pay.
Click on the map for a larger version.

[Hellektor]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Age-long dispute

Territorial ownership of Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh) – a region that is inhabited mainly by Armenian population – is a heavily disputed issue between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Fake “Azerbaijan” has never owned any territory let alone Artsakh. There's not a single internationally valid, legal document concerning the delineation of fake “Azerbaijan's” borders, moreover, having been counterfeited on Armenian territory in 1918 to prevent as much Armenian land be liberated for Armenia in the process of resurrection, it's bid was rejected in 1920 by the League of Nations precisely because of its vague borders and maximalistic territorial claims. Hence, fake “Azerbaijan” has never existed as a subject of international law before 1991 and even then Artsakh had already gained its freedom with the present borders (which are about half of historic Artsakh province), thus, it has never, ever been owned by fake “Azerbaijan” according to whichever law in the universe.

Having been under the control of various empires (Really!! H.) which have held sway in the area since the Assyrians in 800BC, the region began the 20th century as part of the Russian Empire. Following the Bolshevik revolution it became a scene of a series of brutal conflicts between 1918-1922. The violence subsided only in 1922, when a friendship treaty made Turkey and the Soviet Union guarantors of peace in the region, which soon became an actual part of the USSR.

Constant denying of the existence of Armenia by hypocritical Russians! So Artsakh was never part of Armenia? What happened from 800 BC to the 20th century AD you Ruski xaxols? Now, don't tell me fake “Azerbaijan” even claimed Artsakh in 800 BC, 2700 years before its counterfeiting!

Despite a considerable advantage, in terms of military personnel and arms, on the Azerbaijani side, by the time a 1994 ceasefire was signed Armenian forces controlled not only most of the Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh) but also some 14% of the rest of Azerbaijan’s territory.

There we go, the 20% lie again!

But Armenia may be ready to give up Azerbaijani territory it is occupying according to the Turkish leader.

Never! Not a square nanometer! We have territory to take from the Turk not to give them. Go have sex with yourselves, have excrement for dinner -especially from garbage disposed in Khojaly- and pass away!

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I agree with you Hellektor, that Russia today article ticked me off too, it just brushed off the historical claims Armenia has over the area and randomly mentioned the Assyrians, as if they had control of the area during their height.

As for what gul said about Armenia, I think it is bs he is trying to feed the populations of both turkey and azerbaijan so that cooperation with Armenia will be easier to accept.

Any Armenian politician that really thinks or is about to give away those lands should be handled in a very harsh manner.