Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Icy]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I just wish we got a little land back atleast,
why are they so greedy.
I mean they could've atleast given us some land connecting
us to the black sea, then we wouldn't have to rely on turkey
nor georgia.

[Rubo]

Armenian/Turkish "Protocols"

"YEREVAN (Combined Sources)—The Armenian Revolutionary Federation, in a statement issued Tuesday, slammed the draft protocols for the establishment and development of relations between Turkey and Armenia, calling their provisions “dangerous.” The protocols were issued Monday by the foreign ministries of the two countries and Switzerland.

ARF Bureau member Hrant Markarian denounced the protocols as “unacceptable,” in an interview with RFE/RL.

“I regret that our president is going to sign a document he has no right to sign,” Markarian told RFE/RL. “In the next two months we will do everything to inform the public about the essence of the agreement and issues hidden in it,” he said.

Markarian told RFE/RL that these concessions alone would not lead Ankara to reopen the Turkish-Armenian border. “I think it is a bit naïve to expect that state [Turkey] to subordinate Azerbaijan’s interests to its relations with Armenia,” he said. “Maybe there is another, hidden agreement whereby during the next two, three or six months the Karabakh conflict will be ‘solved.’ So [that means] all of Turkey’s three preconditions have been accepted.”

Upon the announcement of the protocols, the ARF Bureau and the Supreme Council of Armenia convened an emergency session and issued the following statement:

On August 31, 2009 protocols on the establishment and development of relations between the republics of Armenia and Turkey were officially announced.

Armenia and Armenians entered a new phase, which is encumbered with numerous threats and danger.

It was about these very concerns that the Armenian Revolutionary Federation continued to warn from the onset of the political process by intermittently expressing the following positions:

a. As neighboring states, Armenia and Turkey are bound to take steps to normalize relations. However, good neighborly relations can be established between the two countries only when Turkey recognized the Armenian Genocide and reestablishes the rights of the Armenian people. The establishment of relations without preconditions and lifting of the blockade were mere first steps.

b. The proposal by Armenia to establish relations without preconditions can be deemed a serious concession

c. It is unacceptable to establish relations with Turkey at the expense of our government’s sovereignty and viability, as well as the national rights of our future generations.

Based on these principles, the ARF on several occasions warned that Turkey is leveraging the entire process to benefit its own interests (impeding the international recognition of the Armenian Genocide effort, a pro-Azeri resolution to the Nargorno-Karabakh conflict) and is communicating with Armenia through obvious and veiled preconditions.

It is already evident that the published documents contain the well-known preconditions of the Turkish side. That is, to call into question the veracity of the Armenian Genocide and to invalidate the unwavering rights of the Armenian people. Furthermore, immediately following the release of the protocols, Turkey, through official statements, reiterated its third precondition: it will not undertake any steps that would contradict Azerbaijan’s interests. This means it is continuing to use the Karabakh issue as a precondition for the Armenia-Turkey process.

The ARF continues to insist that the foreign policy of Armenia has veered from its national doctrine and predictable developments will have irreversible consequences.

With these considerations, during this domestic deliberation stage, the ARF will utilize all means to expose the existing dangers within the protocols in an effort to neutralize them.

We call on the Armenian people and the political forces in Armenia to properly assess the Armenia-Turkey relations process with its negative consequences and, in the most unified manner, deter the possible irreversible losses."
Link:http://www.asbarez.com/2009/09/01/ar...9-for-armenia/

What you guys think? I for one, don't like this idea.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian/Turkish "Protocols"

Two topics that Turkey wanted most are included in the text of the protocol, in a little bit ambiguous manner and soon they will make it explicit.

The third Artsakh precondition, that is not related to Armenia-Turkey bilateral relations, the Turkish foreign Minister announced shortly after release of the protocol.

The two topics are quoted below:


Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations
Between Republic of Armenia and Republic of Turkey

A) “Reconfirming their commitment, in their bilateral and international relations, to respect and ensure respect for the principles equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers.”

“Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law.”


Does Turkey mean Kars or Sevr treaty?


B) “2. Agree to Conduct regular political consultation between the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the two countries;

Implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an im partial and scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations”

Thus Turkey soon will try to convert the term dialog , above, into a Turkish – Armenian separate commission on AG. And at the end they will recommend to refrain from pronouncing AG loudly.

Signing ambiguous legal documents with a stronger country, that has historical record of being unsurpassed in the lies know-how, is very dangerous for the “weak”.

Ambiguity combined with the strength will convert Turkey's ultimate lies into the ultimate truth and even decent countries cannot argue much against it, leaving the weak hopeless and vulnerable.
Doesn't it?

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think the fact that kharabagh is not mentioned in this agreement is a huge win for the Armenian side and is being overlooked by those crying doom n gloom on our side.

Yah sure, there are lot of other humiliations not mentioned (although lot of them are very clear on paper) but certainly are coming.....

My congratulations with your "huge win".

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

U got ur personal opinion so do i,i post based in news that i read and the opinion of experts,then i talk what u do exactly?
Dashnak are u?The party will never rule in democracy with such attitude only in dictatorship,so brave u are then lets take weapons against Georgians so we get access to sea.
Think for a while for the Armenians that live in Armenia.
U rule out that maybe we got our own agenda,and maybe we wont to be the center of the region u name it economical transportations atc.

I was thinking to ignore this mumble of yours, but your moronism is getting offensive...
1.The news you read is primitive propaganda of your looser governament.
2.Democracy? What xxxxen democracy you are talking about? Where? In Armenia? You got to have first an independent country than think of democracy...

Despite of ARF being the only organization in Armenia which you can call political party. The only one which got its own ideology and (surprise, surprise!) the most democratic one. The rest are just organizations with bunch of people hungry for power.

3.Why not attack Kazakhstan or even better India? And get exit to the Indian Ocean?
4.What agenda? They don’t even clean their ass without permission from Moscow..Transportation centre -my ass! turks just are dreaming to let us become a transportation centre..

[Dashnak]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenia needs a Revolution, and an establishment of a Nationalist Dictatorship. Full stop.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian/Turkish "Protocols"

Two topics that Turkey wanted most are included in the text of the protocol, in a little bit ambiguous manner and soon they will make it explicit.

The third Artsakh precondition, that is not related to Armenia-Turkey bilateral relations, and therefore is not included in the protocol; the Turkish foreign Minister announced shortly after release of the protocol.

The two topics are quoted below:


Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations
Between Republic of Armenia and Republic of Turkey

A) “Reconfirming their commitment, in their bilateral and international relations, to respect and ensure respect for the principles equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers.”

“Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law.”


Does Turkey mean Kars or Sevr treaty?


B) “2. Agree to Conduct regular political consultation between the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the two countries;

Implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an im partial and scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations”

Thus Turkey soon will try to convert the term dialog , above, into a Turkish – Armenian separate commission on AG. And at the end they will recommend to refrain from pronouncing AG loudly.

Signing ambiguous legal documents with a stronger country, that has historical record of being unsurpassed in the lies know-how, is very dangerous for the “weak”.

Ambiguity combined with the strength will convert Turkey's ultimate lies into the ultimate truth and even decent countries cannot argue much against it, leaving the weak hopeless and vulnerable.
Doesn't it?

And in addition let me add the elementary school diplomatic truth that says:

the ambiguity in legal documents is always an advantage for the stronger side and the most crucial disadvantage for the weaker one.

Because the stronger side has more chances, you know, interpreting the ambiguity the way he/it would like.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

So why cant Armenia call of the agreement if they think it will not bring mutual benefit or it has disadvantages.So even if turkey are richer why that takes the chance from Armenia to call of everything and go back to closed borders?

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

So why cant Armenia call of the agreement if they think it will not bring mutual benefit or it has disadvantages.So even if turkey are richer why that takes the chance from Armenia to call of everything and go back to closed borders?

You do not back of from xxxx you sign, it is not checkers game with your grandma, it is a protocol signed with turkey. Ever heard of International law?

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

“If Turkey does not turn back halfway, the two-month period fixed by the protocols initial by official Yerevan and Ankara is enough for the Armenian-Turkish border to be reopened and bilateral relations established, Arsen Ghazaryan, the Armenian Co-Chairman of the Armenian-Turkish Economic Cooperation Commission, told NEWS.am.

”But if Turkey back off, it will first of all disgrace itself in the eyes of the international community," the businessman said. He stressed that the reopening of the border is a "derivative’ task, the main aim being the establishment of bilateral relations. The initialed protocols fix the mechanisms of achieving this aim.

According to Ghazaryan, the Armenian-Turkish border can be reopened even before any legal documents are drafted. The relevant subcommittees of the Intergovernmental Commission will deal with the issue as the documents are drafted. “The establishment of diplomatic relations means the removal of Turkey’s unilateral embargo on Armenia, which will lead to the unblocking of the border,” Ghazaryan said. He stressed the initialing of such documents by Yerevan and Ankara is an unprecedented fact. “It is for the first time that Turkey has agreed to put its signature to any documents, without setting any preconditions in the context of either the Armenian Genocide or the Nagorno-Karabakh peace process. Everything followed a typical scenario,” Ghazaryan said.

If the two countries establish good neighborly relations, economic integration will reach a very high level, the businessman said. “If we are speaking of only Turkish imports to Armenia, the reopening of the border will promote Armenian exports to that country,” Ghazaryan said.

As regards Armenian produces’ fears that cheap Turkish products will flood the Armenian market as soon as the border is reopened, with home-made products to be ousted, Ghazaryan said: “Since early 1990s Turkish products have been flooding the Armenian market, and Armenia has never put any legal, customs or other obstacles to Turkish imports to Armenia. It was early in 1990s that Turkish products flooded the Armenian market. Later, as the domestic industry developed and competitive Armenian products entered the market, Turkish imports to Armenia decreased. No fundamental change in the situation should be expected,” he said. According to Ghazaryan, the Armenian industry can well stand competition, and Armenian producers can enter a new, Turkish, market. “Both Armenia and Turkey, as well as the entire region, will equally benefit from the reopening of the border. Armenia will again be a transit country, which will be of benefit to all – from Central Asia to Europe, from Iraq to Georgia,” Ghazaryan said.

news.am