Armenian-Turkish Relations

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I'm not surprised. Armenians rarely help other Armenians so that they or their party can get credit for it instead. Armenians are the most xenophobic towards each other than any other group of people. It's as if there's so many of us on this Earth, we don't even need to tolerate those who are slightly different in thought or perception.

If it wasn't for Turks, the country of Armenia would be more of a doormat than Georgia, more ethnically diverse than the US and about as wealthy as Haiti. For 100 years, the extremists ("revolutionaries") have tried very hard to pin our whole identity not on our thousands of years of existence, but rather, a dream of independence and/or persecution under Turkish rule. Gone are the good ole days when we were a great culture on our own, and the Turkish actually admired us and preferred us (as the xxxs are preferred among gentiles in the US).

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I'm not surprised. Armenians rarely help other Armenians so that they or their party can get credit for it instead. Armenians are the most xenophobic towards each other than any other group of people. It's as if there's so many of us on this Earth, we don't even need to tolerate those who are slightly different in thought or perception.

If it wasn't for Turks, the country of Armenia would be more of a doormat than Georgia, more ethnically diverse than the US and about as wealthy as Haiti. For 100 years, the extremists ("revolutionaries") have tried very hard to pin our whole identity not on our thousands of years of existence, but rather, a dream of independence and/or persecution under Turkish rule. Gone are the good ole days when we were a great culture on our own, and the Turkish actually admired us and preferred us (as the xxxs are preferred among gentiles in the US).

Did you get beat up a lot by Armenian kids when you were young or what? For sure you must have had a number of bad experiencies with other Armenians otherwise you wouldn't be writing these things.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I am not suprised that officials from the RA didn't really help out, but I can't find a good reason why Armenian organizations from Europe wouldn't lend a hand.

ROA officials did their best to stop info about the destruction becoming widely known. For example, when a delegation who wanted to question UNESCO's Director General face-to-face, to protest the destruction, asked the Armenian Embassy in France to provide some representation in order to enhance the status of the delegation, the embassy refused. And when they eventually did manage to get an audience, they went there meekly and respectfully, as if it were a great honour, rather than using the occasion to confront the person who was a part of the problem, its Director General and Azeri lapdog, Matsuura. And they didn't even make a press release afterwards, so nothing is on record. For example, the slimy Matsuura had previously refused to make any public comment on the destruction, saying that UNESCO could say nothing until UNESCO's own investigators had visited the site and independantly verified the destruction. Yet during the audience, Matsuura admitted that he had never asked Azerbaijan if UNESCO investigators could visit the site.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Protocols stamp out the Treaty of Sèvres, Davutoğlu Tells Parliament

ANKARA—It comes as no surprise that the focus of Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu’s presentation to the Turkish Parliament on the protocols was the provision on the recognition of territorial integrity and current borders. This particular aspect was—and remains—one of the critical points of contention and opposition since the announcement of the protocols on August 31.

“The Kars and Moscow agreements define the borders between Turkey and Armenia,” said Davutoglu emphasizing that the provision outlined in the protocols were, in fact, in reference to the aforementioned treatises.

“Both the Kars agreement and the Moscow agreement say that the Sevres Treaty is not recognized,” added Davutoglu, stressing that by signing the protocols Armenia has effectively agreed to this provision. Furthermore, Davutoglu was very clear when he said that Armenia, as the direct inheritor of the former Soviet Armenia, was bound, by international law, to respect the current borders.

Davutoglu further drove the point home to his National Assembly by saying: “No one in Armenia can lay claim to territories of Turkey. Armenia confirmed it in the protocols that it was impossible legally. There are only two international agreements on the recognition of existing borders – Moscow and Kars treaties. The Kars treaty was signed between the USSR, Soviet Armenia, Soviet Azerbaijan and Soviet Georgia. Present Armenia is the legal heir of Soviet Armenia. Former Soviet republics declared in Almaty in 1991 that they recognize all international documents signed by USSR.”

In line with the territorial integrity discussion, Davutoglu then presented the issue of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, which he said is a process that should continue parallel to the Turkey-Armenia normalization.

The Turkish government has not changed it political mission to end the Armenian occupation in Nagorno-Karabakh, Davutoglu said. “Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity is as important for Turkey as its own territorial integrity. Turkey will continue to advocate [Azerbaijan’s rights] at every diplomatic stage like it has done so over the last 17 years.”

The minister said President Abdullah Gul brought the matter up during his phone conversations with his Russian and U.S counterparts in the last two days. “We will do our best to solve this dispute. We’re well aware that any bilateral normalization is not realistic without a comprehensive regional solution. We will open a road to solve Karabakh in line with international law,” he said, adding that the peace negotiations between Baku and Yerevan have to step up as a result of the reconciliation talks with Ankara.”

The status quo in the Caucasus is not consistent with Turkey’s vision, Davutoglu said. “The frozen conflicts are like unexploded bombs in our hands. We need to eradicate them one by one through peaceful means.”

“The existing picture does not serve anybody’s interest in the region,” he said in reference to the fact that Azerbaijan has been under occupation for 17 years while Armenia’s economy has been worsening.

“We have to change the status quo in order to prevent further risks,” Davutoglu said as critical voices from the opposition seats attempted to drown him out.

Davutoglu added that the formation of a historic commission to “study the events of 1915” was in line with Turkish policies and would go a long way to further the rapprochement process.

Opposition in Parliament
As expected, Turkey’s opposition movements were vocal in expressing their discontent with the protocols.

However, one remark that stood out of the rest came from Selahattin Demirtas of the pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party, or DTP, and sparked tension among the parliamentarians. “Denial has been the way to deal with a tragedy in history. The massacre against Armenians was not put into history books,” Demirtas said, increasing the tension in the hall.

Stressing that governments have failed to prevent a historically based anti-Armenian attitude that has dominated the country for over a century, he said: “It is not easy to explain a reconciliation protocol with Armenia under such conditions. We should begin by correcting.”

Sukru Elekdag, the former ambassador to the US and a leader of the Republican People’s Party, or CHP, criticized the ambiguous language in the protocols, arguing that Turkey’s interests were at risk. Elekdag also pointed out Turkey’s strategic alliance with Azerbaijan. “It would be an incomprehensible mistake to lose Azerbaijan. It may worsen Turkey’s relations with all Turkic republics across the world.”

“There is no condition about Armenia changing its constitutional law to recognize Turkey’s territorial integrity. How can the government explain this failure? Turkey has regretfully failed to use its advantages,” he said.

He went on to add that the absence of a clear provision in the protocols about the Kars Treaty weakened Turkey’s position in the process.

“Don’t forget that as soon as Armenia gained its independence, it passed a decision not to recognize the Kars treaty,” stressed Elektag. “The exclusion of a provision about the Kars treaty in the protocol means that Turkey loses its right as guarantor of Nakhchivan. According to the 3rd article of Moscow treaty, Turkey and Russia are guarantors of Nakhchivan’s status.”

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Europe will not forgive Aliyev for frustration of their South Caucasus plans

Big game initiated in the region; everyone is eager to get the maximum but come up with minimum losses.
After the signing of the Armenian-Turkish Protocols Ilham Aliyev left for Switzerland, which was a landmark event for the progress of the situation in the region since October 10. Hardly is it possible that the President of Azerbaijan should have left for Switzerland to “open the Week of Azerbaijani culture”, the official statement said.

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Switzerland, as a mediator in various negotiations, has earned fame and prestige. It was so at the end of the World War II, and it is so now when the security of the Euro-Atlantic region and, in particular, Europe’s plans in the Caucasus are on stake. The stakes are too high to allow Armenia, Azerbaijan and even Turkey to play first fiddle in this game. In all probability, the visit is firstly dictated by Baku’s need to finally define her position and, secondly, Europe itself is eager to ascertain the views of Baku on the Armenian-Turkish relations and on the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Moreover, it is presumed that a certain verbal agreement on the two most pressing problems in the region already exists and the parties can simply be put before a fact, after trying to negotiate “amicably”. The reasons for this “hasty” visit can be interchanged as the core is the following: the OSCE Minsk Group co-chair countries, which were standing behind Nalbandyan and Davutoglu during the ceremony of signing the Protocols, are eager to identify Azerbaijan’s impending steps, especially in regard to the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. And when the steps are identified, Europe will start using levers of pressure to force Baku to make a decision that is acceptable for Europe and the United States. This pertains not only to Azerbaijan, but also to Armenia. Simply Azerbaijan is rich in hydrocarbons and allows herself to gamble on this, thus showing incompliance not only towards Armenia, but also towards the powerful states. This could work only until the world community was interested in the rapid settlement of the Karabakh conflict. And today, when the emphasis has shifted to the speedy solution of the fundamental conflicts which hamper the realization of global economic projects, the pressure can be tough and unpleasant. Trying to estimate the situation, we can say that levers of pressure are applied on Armenia too, the most important of them being on the internal political situation in the country and the threat to change the format of the negotiation process on Karabakh, transferring it to the UN Security Council, whose sanctions may be compulsory. The worst thing that can await Armenia is the phased regulation of the conflict. In any case, the problem is being solved or it is already solved on the level of verbal agreements, while the writing is still taking shape and is perceived as a phased solution to the problem.



As for Azerbaijan, the pressure will go through “voluntary-compulsory participation” in oil and gas projects, in which she is highly interested. If Aliyev disagrees with Europe, there will be applied some more powerful levers, although for the ruling clan in Azerbaijan the control over the energy resources is the strongest argument in favor of any decision. Now one of the priorities for Europe and also for the USA is Nabucco, whose realization is totally intolerable for Russia. If everything goes well, the success of Nabucco could become a yardstick for all other projects. But it would be useful for Ilham Aliyev to realize that Europe will never forgive Azerbaijan for frustration of the projects that can put an end to Russia’s hegemony in the Caucasus, for which, in all probability, the Azerbaijani President was invited to Zurich.



Against the background of current happenings quite lightly sound the statements of some Turkish politicians on the possible holdup of ratification of the Protocols. Quite strange are also the statements of Prime Minister Erdogan and Foreign Minister Davutoglu, who claim that “Turkey will never deliver a blow on the brotherly Azerbaijan” by opening its border with Armenia. These are just words that seem unfounded both to Baku and to the world community. There exist some time limits for ratification: two months to which both Armenia and Turkey have to confine themselves, no matter what it costs them. Otherwise they will be penalized. The question is how long this rhetoric is going to continue; the rhetoric that might end as disgracefully as Aliyev’s constant threat to “return the lands”. As we have already mentioned, the most Azerbaijan can expect now is the return of the two districts, about which last year spoke Leyla Aliyeva, a political scientist and the President’s daughter. At least she knows what she says.



Big game has initiated in the region; everyone is eager to get the maximum but come up with minimum losses. It is especially now that Armenian diplomacy should be ready for all calls hotly discussed since the beginning of the year, to minimize losses and enhance the status of the country on the international arena as a flexible partner, who is open to dialogue.

http://www.panarmenian.net/details/eng/?nid=1083

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

As i predicted the pressure is on the azeris to make peace-not war. The kharabagh issue will soon be solved once the protocals pass.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

As i predicted the pressure is on the azeris to make peace-not war. The kharabagh issue will soon be solved once the protocals pass.

The part I am worried about is what will happen to Artsakh, including the other regions controlled by Armenian Forces. The best outcome would be for Artsakh to be allowed independence and the surrounding lands be incorporated, but I do not think that will occur. If the 'solution' is that Artsakh must go under azeri rule then the powers dictating this will see some crazy s*it go on as I do not think any government in Yerevan can expect the people to take the protocols and basically cave in on the Artsakh issue as well, so I hope the osce minsk nations realize this. The most important opinion will be Russia's since it has by far the most influence in the region and many levers of control over Yerevan, and to a lesser extent over baku.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

As i predicted the pressure is on the azeris to make peace-not war. The kharabagh issue will soon be solved once the protocals pass.

How do you figure? Azerbaijan and Turkey will NEVER accept Artsakhs independence. NEVER. Azeri's have no pressure to surrender national sovereignty on Armenian populated areas, even if they've declared independence. Not from Russia. Not from Iran. Certainly not from Turkey, Israel or U.S.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The part I am worried about is what will happen to Artsakh, including the other regions controlled by Armenian Forces. The best outcome would be for Artsakh to be allowed independence and the surrounding lands be incorporated, but I do not think that will occur. If the 'solution' is that Artsakh must go under azeri rule then the powers dictating this will see some crazy s*it go on as I do not think any government in Yerevan can expect the people to take the protocols and basically cave in on the Artsakh issue as well, so I hope the osce minsk nations realize this. The most important opinion will be Russia's since it has by far the most influence in the region and many levers of control over Yerevan, and to a lesser extent over baku.

That's right Armanen, now you see why many of us were against the protocols. It was a huge blow to us the heirs of the survivors of the Genocide, to let go of it and of reparations arising from the AG resolution; but also in the protocols there is a clause about agreeing to territorial integrity which Nalbandyan signed.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Obviously a compromise deal will be worked out with give and take here and there but we will get artsagh and enoughf surrounding areas to maintain its connection to Armenia and security for it. In return we get peace backed by the big powers and another open border with more possibilities.