Armenian-Turkish Relations

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

In return we get peace backed by the big powers and another open border with more possibilities.

This thought is what revolutionaries in the Ottoman Empire promised, the communists in Russian Armenia promised, those who fought for the CIA/KGB in Beirut promised, and everyone promises when they are selling a dream.

I would never put the security of my people into the hands of odars. How many civilians died or suffered because they were loyal to/trusted the Ottomans? Russian Imperialists? Russian communists? CIA? Israel? Palangists?

Worst of all, trusting a Turkish government, one that promises loyalty to Azeris over and over and promising to return Artsakh to Azerbaijan.

This is why I give the Turkish credit...they're so sharp politically, that when they cut, it doesn't even feel painful.

You really haven't read much about Armenian history, if you can just throw out that statement like that. I mean no disrespect by that, and I'm not saying you're stupid because you disagree...I'm just saying that our history is filled with volumes with our people saying and trusting the same, only to be let down.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenian forces are going to be defending the finalized borders so its not like we are dependant on foreighn powers entirely but i do think a international border gaurds will have a role to play here perhaps as observers atleast. You give the turcks too much credit, they are being pushed into this similar to us.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

To the Turks and Azeris, Armenian forces are occupiers. This is their daily language, what they say in every comment about Artsakh. Do you really think they will EVER accept Artsakhs Army in what they still consider Azerbaijani lands?

Regarding international forces, that is a pill we will swallow when the sickness gets that bad but its too early for that. International forces will ONLY act as observers. In Kosovo and Sudan and so many other places, they have never been able to stop an advancing army. Let us not forget that some pills can make you more sick than the initial sickness.

I don't want to sound like a typical, over-proud Armenian. I understand that we can't stand on our own two feet against Azerbaijan, Turkey, and the nations that thirst for their approval. I know that we must compromise on what we consider the current 'status quo' but not with the governments that are still using such strong language against Artsakh, Armenia, and especially the Diaspora. When the hard-talk stops from their sides, then we can also be willing to talk man to man (when we are first talked to as men).

To the turkish media, we are all terrorism loving ex-rebels from the ottoman empire. their attitude is 'good riddance' and their wish is that we stay a diaspora. we do not have children, mothers, and are far from civilized. we're devils that worship asala. go to the turkish embassy website, any american-turkish association website, or even turkish news websites and you'll usually see a whole section dedicated to Armenians and how evil we are, terrorism loving and out to spread lies about the poor, honorable Turkish people.
Same for their sovietized turd cousins, azeris.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

The most important opinion will be Russia's since it has by far the most influence in the region and many levers of control over Yerevan, and to a lesser extent over baku.

Unfortunately, when we say Russia, today we primarily mean the oligarchy there holding the stakes (gas and oil) primarily via the gigantic Gasprom. None of what is taking place is to benefit to Armenia's genuine interests (whether Nabucco or South Stream) and even that of Russia to be honest. They are sacrificing Armenia for a short-term energy gains that will go into Russian pockets, they will of course throw few bones to the local 'Armenian' bosses. But you will see massive out-migration from Armenia as the nation has been turned into an "importer" for sometime and has nothing that even come close to Turkish production. We will lose the most important battle which is the demographic one as more Armenians will go to Turkey and more Turks and Kurds will come into Armenia. We are facing very serious crisis of even keeping the little chunk of historic Armenia, not to mention the squandering of our sacred Armenian Cause.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

This thought is what revolutionaries in the Ottoman Empire promised, the communists in Russian Armenia promised, those who fought for the CIA/KGB in Beirut promised, and everyone promises when they are selling a dream.

I would never put the security of my people into the hands of odars. How many civilians died or suffered because they were loyal to/trusted the Ottomans? Russian Imperialists? Russian communists? CIA? Israel? Palangists?

Worst of all, trusting a Turkish government, one that promises loyalty to Azeris over and over and promising to return Artsakh to Azerbaijan.

This is why I give the Turkish credit...they're so sharp politically, that when they cut, it doesn't even feel painful.

You really haven't read much about Armenian history, if you can just throw out that statement like that. I mean no disrespect by that, and I'm not saying you're stupid because you disagree...I'm just saying that our history is filled with volumes with our people saying and trusting the same, only to be let down.

You are right, as history proved it hundred times!

Some people are trying to find out miserable arguments to back up their fault.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

This thought is what revolutionaries in the Ottoman Empire promised, the communists in Russian Armenia promised, those who fought for the CIA/KGB in Beirut promised, and everyone promises when they are selling a dream.

I would never put the security of my people into the hands of odars. How many civilians died or suffered because they were loyal to/trusted the Ottomans? Russian Imperialists? Russian communists? CIA? Israel? Palangists?

Worst of all, trusting a Turkish government, one that promises loyalty to Azeris over and over and promising to return Artsakh to Azerbaijan.

This is why I give the Turkish credit...they're so sharp politically, that when they cut, it doesn't even feel painful.

You really haven't read much about Armenian history, if you can just throw out that statement like that. I mean no disrespect by that, and I'm not saying you're stupid because you disagree...I'm just saying that our history is filled with volumes with our people saying and trusting the same, only to be let down.

Very well put Alpha. You have done your homework as every Armenian should have. We paid the ultimate price for a completely flawed line of thinking that places Armenian interests in the hands of ruthless 'peace brokers.'

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

To the Turks and Azeris, Armenian forces are occupiers. This is their daily language, what they say in every comment about Artsakh. Do you really think they will EVER accept Artsakhs Army in what they still consider Azerbaijani lands?

To the turkish media, we are all terrorism loving ex-rebels from the ottoman empire. their attitude is 'good riddance' and their wish is that we stay a diaspora. we do not have children, mothers, and are far from civilized. we're devils that worship asala. go to the turkish embassy website, any american-turkish association website, or even turkish news websites and you'll usually see a whole section dedicated to Armenians and how evil we are, terrorism loving and out to spread lies about the poor, honorable Turkish people.
Same for their sovietized turd cousins, azeris.

If you don't want to sound like "a typical, over-proud Armenian", why are you so unhappy at having as your only mortal enemy a nation of 8 million people that you have to up-the-challenge to a nation of 80 or 90 million people. If you are serious, you have to move away from your mindset that Azerbaijan = Turkey.

I did not expand on my point about the state-level Armenian non-coperation regarding the issue of the Julfa graveyard destruction. The regime and the national psyche of Azerbaijan is genocidal in nature. It may not always be thus, but that is the condition it currently is in. Only a fool would make any agreement with such a regime and nation - yet that is what Armenian politicians are seeking to do. So it is essential for those politicians to minimise the indications of the actual nature of Azerbaijan. Those Azeris photographed smashing with pickaxes and sledgehammers the thousands of medieval gravestones at Julfa, the graves of Armenians dead some 500 years, would (if given the chance) be just as eager to smash them against the heads of the living population of Nagrno Karabakh.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I hope I've never implied that Azerbaijan = Turkey. They are a world different in many ways, even with their attitude towards Armenia/Artsakh.

I agree that you can't negotiate with a country that has evil intent, and a nations intent is visible by not just what their leaders state but what they allow to go uncorrected. Armenia plays the 'peace-lover' role as if its victim identity is threatened and that will be its salvation.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Karabakh unlinked with Protocols: Ivanovski
13:11 / 10/24/2009

Russian Ambassador to Turkey Vladimir Ivanovski stated they support Armenia-Turkey reconciliation and initiative of Kurdish issue resolution, Turkish Radikal daily reports.

“After August 2008 war, speaking in the Turkish Foreign Ministry I said it is high time to normalize Armenia-Turkey relations. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov made a good figure Protocols signing in Zurich. Both Turkey and Russia wish for stability in the Caucasus. Russia has cozy relations both with Armenia and Azerbaijan. About 2.5 million Armenians and 2 million Azeris live in Russia. The settlement of Nagorno-Karabakh problem is crucial also for us, as stability in Caucasus proceed from our interests will have a positive impact on our problems’ solution in Dagestan and Chechnya. However, it is incorrect to link Karabakh issue with Armenia-Turkey Protocols.

PKK issue cannot create obstacles for Russian-Turkish relations and no anti-Turkish actions will be permitted in Russia. Moreover, PKK does not launch any political and military activities in Russia. Despite this, each time meeting with Turkish officials, we express our readiness to assist anyhow based on their provided facts. Regional peace and security is in general interest,” Ivanovski concluded.

http://news.am/en/news/7200.html

Russia telling Turkey to shut the xxxx up and open the border and that they can forget about having influence in Artsakh. lol

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Karo, that's interesting, but the Turks are always very open in how they feel about Artsakh. From asbarez.com, here's what turkeys foreign minister said to azeri dictator: "“We consider the occupied Azerbaijani lands our lands and will continue our struggle to release them. We think that these protocols will give an impetus to this process,” Davutoglu said,"