Armenian Georgian Relations

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

like our neighbors, people are leaving to find jobs. They go to Russia to work, send money back home to feed there families. Armenia is second in the Caucasus according to the Democracy Index, ranked behind Georgia by a few points. They are ranked 103 while Armenia is 109. azerbaijan is last and that is a country with no laws, oligarchs in charge of everything, etc. Armenia is considered a Hybrid Regime.
Armenia is a landlocked country with two of its borders blocked, ofcourse our neighbors are going to do better: Georgia has the ports and is a transit country, azerbaijan has oil, gas and ports. Think about this, before the azeris began making money off there oil Armenia's economy was actually doing better than theirs.

Our neighbours have oil, gas and ports but they don't have what Armenians have; brains and ability to work hard.

If we can have oligarch free country with working laws being double blockaded will not be a major problem for us. People ARE leaving country now and the reason is first and for most rulling regime's anarchy, monopoly

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

You guessed wrong, we were pro Russian when Russia left us open to Turkish massacres in 1918 selling beforehand weapons to Ataturk.

I am neither pro Russian nor pro Western, I am pro Armenian and for that our first task should be to get rid of oligarchs. Then people will be able to make business in their own country and will not leave it. Armenia is the only place where people are unable to make business and it is because of just a bunch of uneducated, arrogant of oligarchs.

Armenia unlike our neighbours survives exclusively with the money their family members send from abroad. And it means no family is full in Armenia, we are all torn apart which it its turn means we can't give the best childhood to our kids if father/mother/grandparents,etc are not around, many questions rise in family education,etc,etc.etc...

besides our problem is not only our immediate neighbors but also other Muslims. Their population is growing and they are getting more Islamized. What was their Mujahedins numbers in Artsakh liberation war? 2.500 or 3.500? How many will be next time?
We need free from oligarchs, normal life to grow, to have kids, not to leave the country...

People are leaving the country because of total anarchy, abnormal laws which only serve the interests of oligarchs, injustice,etc.

What are the reasons of growing infertility of our girls and guys? Baby death toll?

No, it seems I guessed correctly, not only did you bring up a historical example (not IR or geopolitics), but you falsely accuse Russians of doing what bolsheviks were responsible for. Do you know that a large chunk of the bolshevik leadership were not ethnic Russians, and many were in fact, joos? And do you also know that Slavs suffered more under the yoke of the bolsheviks than any other major ethnic group in the ussr? But we are digressing.

As for being pro-Armenia, that goes without saying, I think most Armenians, or at least the ones on this forum, are pro Armenia. You are failing to understand the importance that a pro-Russian position has for the survival and growth of Armenia. And likewise, the dangers of being like georgia, at least in terms of foreign policy and the make up of their government.

Armenia is far from being the only place with oligarchs. All nations have them. The issue is that Armenia is like a small pond or lake, the actions of a few are felt much more than in places like the US which is more like an ocean, and people can get away with being an oligarch. Furthermore, azerbaijan is a prime example of an oligarchy, but you keep treating Armenia as if it is worse, which it is not at all.

Lastly, before you try to scaremonger with islam, realize that Armenia's only normal neighbor is Iran, the favorite boggie man of the mainstream US media.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

You guessed wrong, we were pro Russian when Russia left us open to Turkish massacres in 1918 selling beforehand weapons to Ataturk.

I am neither pro Russian nor pro Western, I am pro Armenian and for that our first task should be to get rid of oligarchs. Then people will be able to make business in their own country and will not leave it. Armenia is the only place where people are unable to make business and it is because of just a bunch of uneducated, arrogant of oligarchs.

Armenia unlike our neighbours survives exclusively with the money their family members send from abroad. And it means no family is full in Armenia, we are all torn apart which it its turn means we can't give the best childhood to our kids if father/mother/grandparents,etc are not around, many questions rise in family education,etc,etc.etc...

besides our problem is not only our immediate neighbors but also other Muslims. Their population is growing and they are getting more Islamized. What was their Mujahedins numbers in Artsakh liberation war? 2.500 or 3.500? How many will be next time?
We need free from oligarchs, normal life to grow, to have kids, not to leave the country...

People are leaving the country because of total anarchy, abnormal laws which only serve the interests of oligarchs, injustice,etc.

What are the reasons of growing infertility of our girls and guys? Baby death toll?

like our neighbors, people are leaving to find jobs. They go to Russia to work, send money back home to feed there families. Armenia is second in the Caucasus according to the Democracy Index, ranked behind Georgia by a few points. They are ranked 103 while Armenia is 109. azerbaijan is last and that is a country with no laws, oligarchs in charge of everything, etc. Armenia is considered a Hybrid Regime.
Armenia is a landlocked country with two of its borders blocked, ofcourse our neighbors are going to do better: Georgia has the ports and is a transit country, azerbaijan has oil, gas and ports. Think about this, before the azeris began making money off there oil Armenia's economy was actually doing better than theirs.

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

And I guess you have little or no understanding of international affairs and geopolitics if you can freely and without worry, make the claim that it does not matter if the government is pro Russia or not.

.

You guessed wrong, we were pro Russian when Russia left us open to Turkish massacres in 1918 selling beforehand weapons to Ataturk.

I am neither pro Russian nor pro Western, I am pro Armenian and for that our first task should be to get rid of oligarchs. Then people will be able to make business in their own country and will not leave it. Armenia is the only place where people are unable to make business and it is because of just a bunch of uneducated, arrogant of oligarchs.

Armenia unlike our neighbours survives exclusively with the money their family members send from abroad. And it means no family is full in Armenia, we are all torn apart which it its turn means we can't give the best childhood to our kids if father/mother/grandparents,etc are not around, many questions rise in family education,etc,etc.etc...

besides our problem is not only our immediate neighbors but also other Muslims. Their population is growing and they are getting more Islamized. What was their Mujahedins numbers in Artsakh liberation war? 2.500 or 3.500? How many will be next time?
We need free from oligarchs, normal life to grow, to have kids, not to leave the country...

People are leaving the country because of total anarchy, abnormal laws which only serve the interests of oligarchs, injustice,etc.

What are the reasons of growing infertility of our girls and guys? Baby death toll?

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

The problem is a cultural one. Armenians like to cut and run when xxxx goes south, at least a large number of them. It is a testament to our ancient roots and the patriots left amongst us that we are still a people.

And I guess you have little or no understanding of international affairs and geopolitics if you can freely and without worry, make the claim that it does not matter if the government is pro Russia or not.

I don't know what community you reside in, but I can tell you that the white genocide is affecting all diasporas, not just the Armenian one.

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I believe in the saying, 'people deserve the governments which they have'.

No, clever and talanted Armenians don't deserve brainless and ugly Dodo Gago, Nemec Rubo, Lfik Samo, Tsaghik Rubo, Chernii Gago,etc...

Until they hold monopoly on everything in Armenia we will experience depopulation which you really don't want to see.

Who cares if we are pro or anti Russian, pro or anti Western, none of them is good for us, they all use us as it suits them, we need to build OUR country, and somehow without native population it is hard to do so, and I don't see Diaspora moving there, but I do see Diaspora loosing its Armenianess. In our community we only see old people.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Petk e gnas Vrastan vorpeszi qo achkerov tesnes te ichqan enq het mnacel irencic.

The question should not be between LTP, RK and SS. They are equally bad. But it is indeed a fact that current govt is the main source of depopulation in Armenia.
Half of population in Armenia only has one kid since they say they can't afford the second one. Numbers of our girls who can't have kids are steadily increasing. Moreover now numbers of our guys who can't have kids are increasing, something we didn't have before. Numbers of newborn babies dying is increasing.
More people from Armenia want to migrate than from our neighbouring countries. All we get from Georgia is puri bakers but they get our "brains and our hands". And obviously as ungrateful as they are centuries later they will assimilate our people, change their surnames and claim all contribution is done by Georgians to Georgia while in reality more is done by Armenians in Tiflis than by their lazy and untalanted people.

Inchi masin enq xosum ete mer erkric aghjikner' arden massayakan gnum en Turqya marmnavatcharutyamb zbaghvelu kam erexa nayelu? vrastan arden gnum enq, Turqya gnum enq, mnum a Aderbejan el gnanq...

Diaspora is afraid of LTP to come to power so they try to act as if it is not as bad.NO, it IS very bad..replace LTP with someone, send bright people form Diaspora to lead the nation, whatever but we must change situation today otherwise tomorrow will be late...

People don't go after LTP because they love him, they go after him in the hope to get rid of current regime. How come Diaspora hasn't "produced" anyone that Armenia also can trust and go after? Again, it is still possible to do it today.

I have been to tiflis, and I was not impressed. 3 times someone came up to me and asked if I wanted to buy drugs. This has never happened to me in Yerevan or any other city in Armenia. So I don't know what georgia you are talking about, if you mean the US state, then yes it is a nice place, I've been there too.

So what impresses you, the fancy hotels you may have seen on the Black Sea coast? A number of them are owned by Armenians, but I bet you already knew that.

Armenians with real skills are not going to georgia, they will try Russia and the EU/US before ever thinking of going to georgia. The migration numbers are good indicators of where people are going, and the numbers do not suggest that georgia is a target.

Again, I do not disagree that Armenia has many issues which need to be fixed, and fixed soon. However, you are making it sound as if Armenia is doing so bad while our neighbors are so much more advanced than us, this is absurd and not true. Much of Europe is having population issues, their native populations are having 2 kids or less. But they are much richer than Armenia, and they also will have to deal with large, unintegrated, muslim populations who have high birth rates.

The Diaspora is afraid of levon because they do not want to lose their Homeland. But I wish more were afraid and understood who levon works for. He and his group would love to establish an anti-Russian government that would allow their western masters to have easier access to the energy resources of the Caucasus/Caspian region. Outlets like Armenianow and policy forum Armenia, are mere tools in the active drive to foment civil and political unrest in Armenia so as to bring about 'friendly', that is, servile government, much like the one in tiflis, or the one that's about to get kicked out in Cairo. So I actually wish more Armenians, not just in the Diaspora, would realize how much of threat levon and his crew are to Armenia.

I believe in the saying, 'people deserve the governments which they have'.

Armenia needs politico-social evolution not a western backed revolution.

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

No one is saying Armenia does not have problems, after all, what country doesn't have problems. My issue is with those that think all of the problems can be laid squarely at the feet of the current government, and that somehow, if we get levon, or some other pro west canidate, that everything in Armenia will transform into a land of milk, honey, and unicorns.

To say that the overall situation in Armenia is more dire than in georgia and azerbaijan is really stretching the truth. Just as some Armenians may consider going to georgia, very few do and even fewer actually move, same is true about georgians moving to Armenia. But neither really proves anything. Another stat for you, Armenia has higher foreign direct investment (FDI) than georgia, and this has been true since 2008. Stats are numbers and they can be used to defend or detract, all of it just depends on your agenda.

That same saaka, is not going to be in office for much longer, the Russians are working on this, and he effectively lost S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. So while he may have done some positive things for georgia, overall he is a failure as a president.

Petk e gnas Vrastan vorpeszi qo achkerov tesnes te ichqan enq het mnacel irencic.

The question should not be between LTP, RK and SS. They are equally bad. But it is indeed a fact that current govt is the main source of depopulation in Armenia.
Half of population in Armenia only has one kid since they say they can't afford the second one. Numbers of our girls who can't have kids are steadily increasing. Moreover now numbers of our guys who can't have kids are increasing, something we didn't have before. Numbers of newborn babies dying is increasing.
More people from Armenia want to migrate than from our neighbouring countries. All we get from Georgia is puri bakers but they get our "brains and our hands". And obviously as ungrateful as they are centuries later they will assimilate our people, change their surnames and claim all contribution is done by Georgians to Georgia while in reality more is done by Armenians in Tiflis than by their lazy and untalanted people.

Inchi masin enq xosum ete mer erkric aghjikner' arden massayakan gnum en Turqya marmnavatcharutyamb zbaghvelu kam erexa nayelu? vrastan arden gnum enq, Turqya gnum enq, mnum a Aderbejan el gnanq...

Diaspora is afraid of LTP to come to power so they try to act as if it is not as bad.NO, it IS very bad..replace LTP with someone, send bright people form Diaspora to lead the nation, whatever but we must change situation today otherwise tomorrow will be late...

People don't go after LTP because they love him, they go after him in the hope to get rid of current regime. How come Diaspora hasn't "produced" anyone that Armenia also can trust and go after? Again, it is still possible to do it today.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I am afraid our situation in Armenia is indeed critical, more than people realize...First we have to accept we are experiencing major problems in Armenia, then we have to combat them...and only afterwards we can think what to do with our neighbours, situation in their countries is not good but still better than in our country.
I personally know quite a few people who are thinking to move to Georgia with families to start business since in Armenia is very tough with it and Saaka does everything to get people to invest in their country.

Recently Javakhk community of Russia issued a statement asking our govt to change the law of Javakhk people paying for the cars driving through Armenia, how can they even think in Armenia to charge javakhkci?!? All the money from those poor people goes into their own pockets? These are the questions to be tackled first and for most...

Pls, use google translate for the Russian text of one of the most positive bloggers who moved from Georgia to Armenia...he is our walking statistics in everything...

No one is saying Armenia does not have problems, after all, what country doesn't have problems. My issue is with those that think all of the problems can be laid squarely at the feet of the current government, and that somehow, if we get levon, or some other pro west canidate, that everything in Armenia will transform into a land of milk, honey, and unicorns.

To say that the overall situation in Armenia is more dire than in georgia and azerbaijan is really stretching the truth. Just as some Armenians may consider going to georgia, very few do and even fewer actually move, same is true about georgians moving to Armenia. But neither really proves anything. Another stat for you, Armenia has higher foreign direct investment (FDI) than georgia, and this has been true since 2008. Stats are numbers and they can be used to defend or detract, all of it just depends on your agenda.

That same saaka, is not going to be in office for much longer, the Russians are working on this, and he effectively lost S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. So while he may have done some positive things for georgia, overall he is a failure as a president.

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Thank you for your input. It's surprising the way internal problems caused by Turks and Azeris are projected by the Georgians onto the Armenians. Can't imagine why they're allowing Azeris to settle in such large numbers on the northern border of Armenia when there's more than enough land in Azerbaijan - the country where the oil billions are being generated. Or why the Georgians don't understand the extent to which Saakashvilli has undermined their security.

Ajarians were converted by Turks into Islam and until recently 100% of them were Muslims. Centuries ago they tried to separate from Georgians and unite with Turks. Today many of them are Christians and they are fine with Armenian tourists. Most of them consider themselves Georgians today. At least that is what Armenian tourists get as a respond to their questions in Ajaria.