Armenian Georgian Relations

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Of course Russia is a solid ally, but just because they are an ally doesn't mean we shouldn't be suspicious of their intentions. We are to them a strategic territory in the South Caucasus. That's it really. If allying themselves with Azerbaijan or another country will benefit them more than allying with us, they will sell us. It's like any other super power, they look after their own interests first, and it doesn't matter what external countries get in the way. Doesn't matter who it is, all such powers pursue whatever policy will benefit them the most. At the moment, have a deep military alliance with us is beneficial to Russian (and to us), let's hope that stays, but we shouldn't get to comfortable and believe it will always be like that. Alliances are dynamic after-all.

If Russia wishes to lose it's northern Caucasus it will abandon Armenia. However, I don't think they wish this to happen so they will keep Armenia very close.

More on this later, but think about the above statement Mos.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

It's not about relying, but about using. There is much more potential to use Russia's ''powers'' and ''support'' than most of the Western countries. In the end, we are not superman or batman, we need ''allies'' (definition may defer), and history and present times have time after time proven Russia to be the most ''reliable'' of them all. I will not accept people putting Russia in the same line as America or other Western countries, because they are not.

Long live the Russian Federation!

Of course Russia is a solid ally, but just because they are an ally doesn't mean we shouldn't be suspicious of their intentions. We are to them a strategic territory in the South Caucasus. That's it really. If allying themselves with Azerbaijan or another country will benefit them more than allying with us, they will sell us. It's like any other super power, they look after their own interests first, and it doesn't matter what external countries get in the way. Doesn't matter who it is, all such powers pursue whatever policy will benefit them the most. At the moment, have a deep military alliance with us is beneficial to Russian (and to us), let's hope that stays, but we shouldn't get to comfortable and believe it will always be like that. Alliances are dynamic after-all.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

One thing we must learn, is not to rely on any power. We have to be suspicious of every body, even Russia. We are a small country, with little natural resources, we are a small bargaining chip to the big powers, who can sell us in a heartbeat. We can never trust anybody fully, and we must always remember our enemies and never forget.

It's not about relying, but about using. There is much more potential to use Russia's ''powers'' and ''support'' than most of the Western countries. In the end, we are not superman or batman, we need ''allies'' (definition may defer), and history and present times have time after time proven Russia to be the most ''reliable'' of them all. I will not accept people putting Russia in the same line as America or other Western countries, because they are not.

Long live the Russian Federation!

[Mos]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Exactly, and to learn from the past you need to know how things occurred in the past, or else you will learn the wrong lessons.

One thing we must learn, is not to rely on any power. We have to be suspicious of every body, even Russia. We are a small country, with little natural resources, we are a small bargaining chip to the big powers, who can sell us in a heartbeat. We can never trust anybody fully, and we must always remember our enemies and never forget.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

With who are you going to fulfill your plans if Armenian is being depopulated, if people are leaving the country on daily bases?

Well the idea is that by getting an access to the Black Sea (and or a possible border with Russia) Armenia's economy would get a boost and that would encourage more people to stay in Armenia.

Also Geogia cannot be trusted but can be used to our advantage against the Turks and Azeris...meaning whatever confidental deals you make with them it will be known to Turkey ( Sakawoody would be on the phone to Ankara).
Deception is the key.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Guys, what happened happened, nothing you can do to change it. Look forward to the future, and learn from the past mistakes.

Exactly, and to learn from the past you need to know how things occurred in the past, or else you will learn the wrong lessons.

[arakeretzig]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Guys, what happened happened, nothing you can do to change it. Look forward to the future, and learn from the past mistakes.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Bolsheviks sold us and our lands to the Turks/Azeris.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Nare, you are making a big mistake, I don't know it if you do it on purpose or not.

If it were for the Russians, probably the genocide wouldn't have happened and the map of Armenia would have looked very differently.


From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of the Russian Army... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, Let your will the peoples remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ received resurrection for a new free life....[29]


Martin Gilbert in The First World War states that in search of allies against the Turks, the Tsar visited the "Caucasus front" on December 30, telling the head of the Armenian Church that "a most brilliant future awaits the Armenians".

—Nicholas II of Russia

Together with the Russians, the Armenians were winning on all fronts, until the black day came for ethnic Russians and Armenians, when the Bolsheviks took over power. This is were we lost Western Armenia, this was the beginning of the ''biggest'' Armenian genocide, not only in Western Armenia, but also (what most people tend to forget) our billions worth of property in Tbilisi and Baku (which was 95% Armenian owned).

Again it is annoying to discuss such thing with a person with such low knowledge as you, as you don't even understand the difference between the Bolshevik government and the current Russian government, (SS and the current german government), in Turkey, the current government is the same as the ''modern day'' SS and the Bolsheviks, nothing has changed.

Furthermore, I am the first person who is against monopolies and I can state (as I often visit Armenia and have numerous contacts) that things are going the right way, albeit not as fast as I want it. But it is our job, of all Armenians, to help our country. Armenia is a developing country, and what we have seen is that monopolies are being taken down since a few years, and this will continue in the future. The president isn't all mighty, something people tend to forget.

Armenians are ready but their works are hindered exactly by ruling corrupt regime

I like this sentence. You know, every time an Armenian says this, it means they never tried but only listened to rumors. I can tell you one thing, I have been active in Armenia for over a decade, and even in worse times I, my friends and relatives have accomplished a lot in Armenia, I am not speaking about how extremely easy it is today to do business in Armenia or something else that helps our country. I, nor my friends, nor my family has ever experienced any problem with the government, you just have to do it the ''European'' way, and everything by law. It also helps to say you are getting support from European government and are making a ''documentary'' on how to do business, etc and thus the reason why you want to film the process. Anyway, there are dozens of ways to help our country.

The thing is, lazy, stupid, unintelligent, greedy people are the ones who are constantly shouting ''we can't do anything'', ''the government is corrupt'', ''everybody wants to help but the regime doesn't let them''. BULLxxxx. STOP your lies. ''We'' are smarter than them (the corrupt ones, because there are also enough patriotic and good persons in our government today), and slowly but steadily we must ''infiltrate'' from the inside and take over power. That is what we are currently doing.

And last, the biggest reason people are leaving Armenia is because of our dim economic prospects. The situation would have been very different if we at least would have a connection to a sea, or a stable country (Iran is blockaded and Georgia is the same xxxx as Azerbaijan). If we use our brains, we need to have good export routes, and unfortunately just don't have it. Plus, Armenians are not as Turks or Azerbaijanis, every Armenian wants to become a ''millionaire'' as a matter of speech, so most of the Armenians don't take granted what they have and want to go to Los Angeles where you can pick up dollars on the street or Europe where you don't have to work to get rich. Anyway, there are dozens of other factors than your constant wining about ''oligarchs'', which of course should be taken care of.

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

No, it seems I guessed correctly, not only did you bring up a historical example (not IR or geopolitics), but you falsely accuse Russians of doing what bolsheviks were responsible for. Do you know that a large chunk of the bolshevik leadership were not ethnic Russians, and many were in fact, joos? And do you also know that Slavs suffered more under the yoke of the bolsheviks than any other major ethnic group in the ussr? But we are digressing.

As for being pro-Armenia, that goes without saying, I think most Armenians, or at least the ones on this forum, are pro Armenia. You are failing to understand the importance that a pro-Russian position has for the survival and growth of Armenia. And likewise, the dangers of being like georgia, at least in terms of foreign policy and the make up of their government.

Armenia is far from being the only place with oligarchs. All nations have them. The issue is that Armenia is like a small pond or lake, the actions of a few are felt much more than in places like the US which is more like an ocean, and people can get away with being an oligarch. Furthermore, azerbaijan is a prime example of an oligarchy, but you keep treating Armenia as if it is worse, which it is not at all.

Lastly, before you try to scaremonger with islam, realize that Armenia's only normal neighbor is Iran, the favorite boggie man of the mainstream US media.

Oh, so you are one of those for who it is not Russian state but XXX? lol

Then the same way we should not accuse Turkey for AG...

Or who were Nazis id Hitler were not German but Austrian?

Who cares of ethnic make up of leaders? It's Russia, Turkey and Germany, especially who said that today Russia is rulled by exclusively Russians? Even their Foreign Minister is Armenian.
It is Russia,Israel, Ukraine who are selling today weapons to Azerbaijan. It is Russian state which allows Russian nationalists to kill our guys there.
They have betrayed us many times for their interests. They are no better than West who did the same. We have only ourselves to rely on.

We are one of the cleverest nations ever, our people are contributing to other countries, we need to direct all our power for Armenia and many Armenians are ready but their works are hindered exactly by ruling corrupt regime. Comparing oligarchs in Armenia and in West is absurd. Average person in the West doesn;t even think of their oligarchs but in Armenia they close average guy's business to have monopoly over it leaving many families without bread. Armenia unlike West doesn't have middle class which is the core of the country.

Iran has good relations with us but their Islamic leaders not once raised voice of support to Azerbaijan. And I m talking about all other Muslim states who sent Mujahedins to fight us in Artsakh. With the growth of Islamic fanatics we are going to have more of them in our country and we need more people, more kids but today we are experiencing the opposite.

What are we even discussing here? The flow of immigration from Armenia is increasing and birth rate is decreasing.