Armenian Georgian Relations

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I'm trying to say it is not as dire as some people are making it out to be. Furthermore, azerbaijan, and georgia are having similar issues, so we are not the only ones with this issue.

I am afraid our situation in Armenia is indeed critical, more than people realize...First we have to accept we are experiencing major problems in Armenia, then we have to combat them...and only afterwards we can think what to do with our neighbours, situation in their countries is not good but still better than in our country.
I personally know quite a few people who are thinking to move to Georgia with families to start business since in Armenia is very tough with it and Saaka does everything to get people to invest in their country.

Recently Javakhk community of Russia issued a statement asking our govt to change the law of Javakhk people paying for the cars driving through Armenia, how can they even think in Armenia to charge javakhkci?!? All the money from those poor people goes into their own pockets? These are the questions to be tackled first and for most...

Pls, use google translate for the Russian text of one of the most positive bloggers who moved from Georgia to Armenia...he is our walking statistics in everything...

Население Армении сократилось на 13 тыс. человек

Согласно официальным данным, постоянное население Армении выросло на 12.5 тыс. чел., составив примерно 3.26 млн. чел.

В реальности же население сократилось чуть более чем на 13 тысяч человек (13 тыс 58 чел):

Родилось 44.810 (+1%),
Умерло 28.008 (+2%),
Естественный прирост таким образом составил 16.802 (-0.3%), а миграционная убыль в этом году выросла и составила 29.860 чел (в сравнении с 25 тыс в 2009, 23 тыс в 2008 и 3 тыс. в 2007 году (с 2004 по 2006 год был миграционный прирост).

Для сравнения, в 2009 году общая убыль населения составила 8.04 тыс., в 2008 году 9.263, в 2007 году был прирост 9.4 тыс (прирост был начиная с 2002 года, с 2002 по 2006 год население выросло на 74.4 тыс. чел.)

Ориентировочно, население Армении составляет от 2.95 млн чел до 3.05 млн., единственные более-менее надежные данные - данные переписи по наличному населению - 3,002.6 тысяч человек.

При всем этом число браков составило 18 тыс (упало на 4%), а число разводов - 3 тыс (выросло на 0.5%). Среди прочих негативных показателей - еще более выросла диспропорция между мальчиками и девочками - в ушедшем году на 100 девочек родилось 114 мальчиков. Младенческая смертность выросла на 10% и составила 11.3 промилле.

По регионам рождаемость составила:
(за базу беру население при переписи)

Ереван -- 14.3,
Арагацотн -- 17.1,
Арарат -- 15.7,
Армавир -- 15.9,
Гегхаркуник -- 16.1,
Лори -- 14.6,
Котайк -- 16.4,
Ширак -- 15.0,
Сюник -- 12.8,
Вайоц-Дзор -- 13.0,
Тавуш -- 13.7

Число родившихся выросло в Ереване (+1%), Лори (+9%), Армавире (+1.5%), Арарате (+4%), Арагацотне (+6%); сократилось -- в Шираке, Сюнике, Тавуше, Вайоц-Дзоре и Котайке, а в Гехаркунике не изменилось.

Число умерших остается практически неизменным, как и в прошлые годы. Во всех регионах число умерших выросло одинаково, примерно на 1.5-2.5%. По миграции с учетом регионов - данных нет.

Некоторые комментарии:
1. Число рождений динамично прирастало до середины 2010 года, с июля начался спад -- и если за первую половину года прирост составлял + 6.7%, то во второй половине был уже спад и по сравнению с июлем-декабрем 2009 года он составил чуть более 4%. Эта тенденция, видимо, будет долгосрочной и особенно усилится с 2015 года.
2. По миграции: тенденция, судя по всему, будет развиваться и дальше. В любом случае, в 2011 году будет отрицательный миграционный прирост (если конечно ничего экстраординарного не случится в России): согласно исследованию CRRC, 57% населения хотели бы временно, а 25% населения - постоянно - покинуть страну.
При этом, в Армении 56% имеют членов семьи или родственников за рубежом (для Грузии это 37%, для Азербайджана - 40%), а 36% имеют друзей за рубежом (также самый большой показатель). Также общее ощущение неудовлетворенности жизнью, согласно этому опросу, больше. См: http://crrc-caucasus.blogspot.com/20...e-armenia.html

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Thank you for your input. It's surprising the way internal problems caused by Turks and Azeris are projected by the Georgians onto the Armenians. Can't imagine why they're allowing Azeris to settle in such large numbers on the northern border of Armenia when there's more than enough land in Azerbaijan - the country where the oil billions are being generated. Or why the Georgians don't understand the extent to which Saakashvilli has undermined their security.

Well azeri's have settled more near the border areas between georgia and azerbaijan. The meskhetian turks are the ones I assume you are referring to when you say georgia has allowed them to settle in large numbers near Armenia's northern border, that is, in Javakh. Sadly, the causes of this and why sakofxxxxvili is still popular are due, in large part, to the deeper historical and societal issues that the starter of this thread refered to in the initial post.


And you should know that the majority of azeris in azerbaijan are dirt poor, they do not get any of the financial benefits from the oil or gas. The little sultan and his minions make sure of that.

[Setta]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Thank you for your input. It's surprising the way internal problems caused by Turks and Azeris are projected by the Georgians onto the Armenians. Can't imagine why they're allowing Azeris to settle in such large numbers on the northern border of Armenia when there's more than enough land in Azerbaijan - the country where the oil billions are being generated. Or why the Georgians don't understand the extent to which Saakashvilli has undermined their security.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Hi guys,

Three questions:

1. Re: the following article: Does anyone know if the "professor" Guram Markhuliya is a Georgian Christian or an Azerbaijani living and working in Georgia?
2. Was Adjaria ever inhabited or occupied by Armenia in ancient or modern times?
3. What is the attitude of the Adjarians towards Armenians? Are they hostile, disinterested, dismissive, etc? Does our interaction with the Adjarians resemble more closely our relationship with the Turks and Azeris or our relationship with the Iranians and Lebanese? If they received increased cultural independence, freedom of expression, and economic benefit under an Armenian realpolitik, how virulently would they resist a central government located in Yerevan rather than Tiblisi? How loyal will they be to Georgia if they are guaranteed autonomy from the Armenians that also includes an exponential improvement in their lives?

1. I don't know what his ethnic make up is, regardless, he is engaging in misinformation toward Armenia and Armenians. So he is scumbag.
2. Adjara has been under Armenian control during periods in the Middle Ages, but it has spent more time being influenced by Armenia and its culture, much like the Albanians but not to the same extent.
3. From what I know of the Adjarians, they like Armenians and would treat us well. They almost broke away from georgia until some last minute deal secured autonomy for them. I guess the georgians realized that losing Adjara would be great blow to their country since it would quickly fall under the sway of turkey, Armenia or even Russia. If you know about the Armenian population in Abkhazia, you can compare how our relationship is and would be (more or less) with the Adjarians. Since Adjarians already enjoy something close to independence, I think giving them outright independence would be a great way of getting them to the Armenian side. Regardless, none of this can happen without Russia's support, and we must not forget that turkey would be a player too. The questions then becomes, how active would the turks be? I suppose that would depend greatly on the role Russia played - the more Russia is involved the less the turks will be, in my opinion.

[Setta]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

He's incompetent. The document related to the assertion that the first Britons were Armenian is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle written by monks in the 9th century during the reign of Alfred the 1st. The only remaining fragments of the document are in the British Library, Oxford, and Cambridge.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

He probably got his education in azerbaijan from bunyadov.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

He must be azeri turk from georgia i talked with him via facebook.he had no information about what his claims only but insults,the only thing he gave me is one of the other articles with same bullxxxx http://www.apsny.ge/analytics/1267415329.php

[Setta]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Hi guys,

Three questions:

1. Re: the following article: Does anyone know if the "professor" Guram Markhuliya is a Georgian Christian or an Azerbaijani living and working in Georgia?
2. Was Adjaria ever inhabited or occupied by Armenia in ancient or modern times?
3. What is the attitude of the Adjarians towards Armenians? Are they hostile, disinterested, dismissive, etc? Does our interaction with the Adjarians resemble more closely our relationship with the Turks and Azeris or our relationship with the Iranians and Lebanese? If they received increased cultural independence, freedom of expression, and economic benefit under an Armenian realpolitik, how virulently would they resist a central government located in Yerevan rather than Tiblisi? How loyal will they be to Georgia if they are guaranteed autonomy from the Armenians that also includes an exponential improvement in their lives?

Armenians mislead by replacing real history with myths - Georgian professor

Tue 01 February 2011 | 05:23 GMT

News.Az interviews Georgian historian, professor of the Sukhumi State University Guram Markhuliya.

I would start my conversation with the direct question. Is the current Republic of Armenia the historical land of Armenians?

The present-day Armenia consists of the historical regions of Georgia and Azerbaijan. Scientists from different countries have not come to a single opinion about localization of the home of Armenians. The search continues.

What does the present-day Armenian state have to do with Cilicia which existed in the 14th century?

The present-day Armenia and Armenians have nothing to do with Cilicia. In 1045 the Byzantine empire terminated the old and unnecessary Anisian kingdom, while the population was partly moved and partly deported and settled in different internal parts of the empire, a significant part of Armenians moved to the Georgian borders, weeping �save and give us shelter, our Georgian brothers! In some period, a definite part of Armenians turned out to be in Cilicia. The Armenian population in Cilicia, created their religious catholicosate, the church figures became the leaders of Armenian people in this sphere. Ruben I became the first Catholicos of Armenian settlers in Cilicia in 1080 and later Armenian historians raised the religious leaders to the rank of princes and when their fancy broke even looser they called them tsars. Thus the Cilician Armenian state appeared thanks to the �powerful� historians of Armenia. Armenians are still searching their homeland in Azerbaijan, Georgia, Turkey and other countries. The strife to establish the Karabakh state, Javakheti autonomy for the further proclamation of this area as an Azerbaijani state is also the proof. It is possible to suggest with irony that the Armenian �intellectuals� also plan to create the Cuban Armenian Republic, Armenian Republic of Makharashtra in India, and Gujarakert Republic in Gujarat state.

So, if we start speaking about the scientific fantasies of Armenian �scientists�, how can you comment on the statements of Yerevan professor Suren Ayvazyan that Great Britain owes Armenia a billion in an unknown currency and that he planned to sent a letter to queen Elizabeth the Second to at the Buckingham Palace with the demand to return the treasury of the Cilician Armenian state to Armenia?

As far as I know, Suren Ayvazyan sent this letter to the English queen in 2001, but I have no idea of the response sent to Yerevan. In addition, this appeal was published in Kommersant newspaper in 2001. I can imagine the frustration of Suren Ayvazyan after my suggestion but I do not think that the archives of the Buckingham palace has held the intensive search of the �lost check� with the signatures of royal figures-Levon IV and Richard II throughout 10 years since 2001. On the whole, I think with the well-known British humor, I am afraid this Armenian joke was not understood in Great Britain.

Unfortunately, this is not the only Armenian joke. How can you comment on Ayvazyan�s study, according to which �Anglo-Saxons moved from Armenia to British isles in 15-10th centuries BC from the Angle-tin province of Fourth Armenia of the Great Armenia?

There is no doubt that Mr.Ayvazyan used the invaluable manuscripts kept in Matenadaran while studying this issue. According to them, had it not been for �Great Armenians�, the humankind would have stuck in the Stone Age. While informing the world community about this purely Armenian vision of history, Suren Ayvazyan covers the dark sides of the world history with his torch, big like an Armenian nose. This Armenian geologists really believes that the word of three letters �ARM� is under jurisdiction of the ARMenian people. All the same, it is �missed� that we do not know where the Fourth Armenia and khais, like Armenians call themselves, located in the 15-10th centuries BC.

What is the main goal of all historical falsifications of Armenians?

Earlier you asked what the Armenian state has to do with Cilicia which existed in the 14th century. The fact that you asked this question proves the successful and productive work of the Armenian propaganda, spreading the historical lie. There has never been the Cilician Armenian state in history, however, the Armenian propaganda did what it wanted and I do not exclude that in some time such Armenian opuses like the myths of Suren Ayvazyan and people like him, will become a real history for ignorant people. It is this way that Armenians were misleading the world by replacing the real history with their own myths. This is how the concepts like Great Armenia, Armenian upland, Armenian plant and many others appeared together with the Cilician Armenian state, though, in fact there are no such geographical notions.

Akper Hasanov
News.Az

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I'm trying to say it is not as dire as some people are making it out to be. Furthermore, azerbaijan, and georgia are having similar issues, so we are not the only ones with this issue.

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Have you been reading armenianow.com?

No.

Are you trying to say we are not experiencing depopulation problems in Armenia?