Armenian Georgian Relations

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Chem uzum otar lezvov grem, dyq kardum eq ereq orva wikileaksi grarumnern Hayastani masin? Dran el inc kareli a avelacnel? Erkirn datarkvum e...

Shater@ pordzum en takcnel aid pastn, baic el hnaravor che.

Lernakan,

Ete kardum es aid hodvatznern apa inqt el gites we can't afford waiting, we just don't have that time left...

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Nare,

You're saying the Russians only help us because it's in their own interest like it's something wrong. All nations work for their own interests, America does it. They bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to bring democracy there but when it comes to Egypt than democracy is suddenly a problem. In short every nation works for their own interests and so should we. However, let's get real here, if Armenia was left to itself we couldn't survive for a day. I know this doesn't sound "pleasant" but we all should put our emotions aside and assess the situation with a rational mind. Armenia, is a small landlocked country with a dwindling population and no real economy to speak of. We have what we have because of the enormous sacrifice our ancestors have made and because Russia needs us in this region. If Russia, would decide to leave us, have no doubt Turkey would settle the "Armenian problem" once and for all. They wanted to invade us during the Artsakh liberation war and if it weren't for Russia they would've done it. So we have to be thankful that our national interests currently coincide with the national interests of Russia.
Which other country provides us with modern day armaments for cheap prices or even for free?
Believe it or not but during the early days of the Artsakh liberation war our soldiers didn't even have enough bullets to go fight. During shooting exercises they were all given three bullets to shoot and that was it, after that they were sent to the front to fight. This all changed after the Soviet Union fell (August 1991) and independent Russia supplied us with weapons. This is not just something I've read but I've heard this from many Artsakh war veterans. You just have to look at the facts, our victories during this liberation war started from early 1992 onwards (Shushi was liberated in May, 1992).
Now, like it or not, in the foreseeable future we are dependent on Russia. This doesn't have to be something wrong per se. In this age of globalism all nations are dependent upon eachother at some level, even superpowers as Russia, America, China etc. Just look at what the American financial crisis did to the rest of the world. Now do you seriously expect Armenia to be fully independent?

Regarding the oligarchs, I share your concerns however I would want you to be more rational in this issue as well. I don't know what you've been taught during your history classes but all developed nations in this world have gone through the same "growing" pains that we are experiencing now. Just a century and a half ago there were "oligarchs" here in western europe. They all enriched themselves by exploiting the working class majority. This didn't change in a day or two and the change didn't come from politicians but it evolved from the society. The change came from the rich themselves who began doing something back for society with the money they earned. That's why I agree with people who say that our current government is the reflection of our society. We as a society have not developed that mindset which places national interests above personal interests. This is one of the consequences of not having an independent state in more than six centuries.
Please bear in mind that our republic is only 20 years old. It's not fair nor rational to compare Armenia to any developed country. In the 20 years of our young republics existence we have experienced hardships which most countries don't experience in a century or more. After all this, it's a miracle that we even have an independent homeland. Now back to the oligarchs, in short we need a lot of "Ralph Yirikian's" before this situation changes. Please if you have the time read this post by Federate about Ralph Yirikian:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/15995-Stories-of-Armenian-repatriates?p=303554&viewfull=1#post303554

“Armenia is 19 years old,” Yirikian says. “Look 10 to 20 years from now (before making a judgment on progress). What is important is the vision in the long run. It is not enough to love your Armenian identity. You love your identity by giving your best effort (to make change).”

We all want a rich, independent and strong homeland but we have to be patient. As one former member (Armenian) of this forum put it:

"We need a political evolutional, not a revolution"

If we don't show the patience and opt for a quick solution, we risk losing our independent country once and for all.

Well said enker jan!

[Lernakan]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Don't want to start a firestorm....I understand the disappointment with US policy regarding Artsakh and the Genocide recogntion, but the US govt and Diaspora provide generous funding to Armenia unlike Russia............Why is Armenia wasting her time with Russia when we could have the US as our superpower ally?

Setta,

I know you mean well and I really don't want to offend you or anything but please take Armanen's advice and read that thread carefully before you make more comments like this again. I don't know how long it's been since you've looked at a map but it wouldn't hurt to take a map out and carefully look at the position of Armenia and our neighbours. Again this isn't meant to offend you but your comment really reaches absurdity.

[Lernakan]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Nare,

You're saying the Russians only help us because it's in their own interest like it's something wrong. All nations work for their own interests, America does it. They bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to bring democracy there but when it comes to Egypt than democracy is suddenly a problem. In short every nation works for their own interests and so should we. However, let's get real here, if Armenia was left to itself we couldn't survive for a day. I know this doesn't sound "pleasant" but we all should put our emotions aside and assess the situation with a rational mind. Armenia, is a small landlocked country with a dwindling population and no real economy to speak of. We have what we have because of the enormous sacrifice our ancestors have made and because Russia needs us in this region. If Russia, would decide to leave us, have no doubt Turkey would settle the "Armenian problem" once and for all. They wanted to invade us during the Artsakh liberation war and if it weren't for Russia they would've done it. So we have to be thankful that our national interests currently coincide with the national interests of Russia.
Which other country provides us with modern day armaments for cheap prices or even for free?
Believe it or not but during the early days of the Artsakh liberation war our soldiers didn't even have enough bullets to go fight. During shooting exercises they were all given three bullets to shoot and that was it, after that they were sent to the front to fight. This all changed after the Soviet Union fell (August 1991) and independent Russia supplied us with weapons. This is not just something I've read but I've heard this from many Artsakh war veterans. You just have to look at the facts, our victories during this liberation war started from early 1992 onwards (Shushi was liberated in May, 1992).
Now, like it or not, in the foreseeable future we are dependent on Russia. This doesn't have to be something wrong per se. In this age of globalism all nations are dependent upon eachother at some level, even superpowers as Russia, America, China etc. Just look at what the American financial crisis did to the rest of the world. Now do you seriously expect Armenia to be fully independent?

Regarding the oligarchs, I share your concerns however I would want you to be more rational in this issue as well. I don't know what you've been taught during your history classes but all developed nations in this world have gone through the same "growing" pains that we are experiencing now. Just a century and a half ago there were "oligarchs" here in western europe. They all enriched themselves by exploiting the working class majority. This didn't change in a day or two and the change didn't come from politicians but it evolved from the society. The change came from the rich themselves who began doing something back for society with the money they earned. That's why I agree with people who say that our current government is the reflection of our society. We as a society have not developed that mindset which places national interests above personal interests. This is one of the consequences of not having an independent state in more than six centuries.
Please bear in mind that our republic is only 20 years old. It's not fair nor rational to compare Armenia to any developed country. In the 20 years of our young republics existence we have experienced hardships which most countries don't experience in a century or more. After all this, it's a miracle that we even have an independent homeland. Now back to the oligarchs, in short we need a lot of "Ralph Yirikian's" before this situation changes. Please if you have the time read this post by Federate about Ralph Yirikian:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/15995-Stories-of-Armenian-repatriates?p=303554&viewfull=1#post303554

“Armenia is 19 years old,” Yirikian says. “Look 10 to 20 years from now (before making a judgment on progress). What is important is the vision in the long run. It is not enough to love your Armenian identity. You love your identity by giving your best effort (to make change).”

We all want a rich, independent and strong homeland but we have to be patient. As one former member (Armenian) of this forum put it:

"We need a political evolutional, not a revolution"

If we don't show the patience and opt for a quick solution, we risk losing our independent country once and for all.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Isn't this idea considered by Russians in past? During Russian-Georgian war?

Yes, by Russian politicans but I don't think it is fully considered at executive level.

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I don't think Nare understands the fact that Armenia is much too weak to survive on its own and that Russia is the only power in the world today which has a interest in Armenia surviving and the strength to back it up. The USA and the zionists would like nothing better then for someone like LTP to take power again and destroy Armenia once and for all, they have proved this many times when LTP was president and when they tried their collor revolution afterward. The russian interest in Armenia is of course derived from self interest and we are lucky that this is so for no one else is willing to guerantee our security like Russia has for many decades. A important fact Nare and others here should not forget is that armenians in Armenia have never enjoyed the a higher quality of life then they did during soviet times (under russian rule). Today the average armenian citizen today is far worst off then the average citizen was during soviet days. The armenian population in our present day homeland is dwindeling because families cannot survive there but during soviet times survival was not an issue people had the necessities of life and were more concerned with intellectual matters. I dont think most people who are born in the west understand what Russia has done for Armenia and why we cannot rely on another power. Yes it is in Russias interest for Armenia to be there and to remain dependent and that is way better then our other options which invariably lead to total anniahlation of Armenia.

And I doubt that people understand what I am saying. I don't oppose what you are saying. But my point is to realise Russians are only working for their own interests and not because they indeed want to help us. They will not hesitate to sell us as they have done if better offer comes up. And for that we have to use all our potentials around the world to develop our country. If we free our country from oligarchs many Diaspora Armenians will be able to help Motherland, and I am talking about major things. Armenian brains are developing other countries, we need that for ourselves, for Armenia...Then our people can move back from Russia and not be killed there for being an Armenian...

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Russian skinheads don't represent Russia. Plus I could care less what Russia people think, what's important is Russian government's stance towards us, which is positive. We are to them, what Israel is to USA.

Unfortunately they do...Skinheads are linked with high ranked Russian officials there...

Why do you think no Georgians or xxx was killed in Russia? Only because skinhead leaders are said not to target them because both countries will make an international issue out of it but Armenian govt indeed couldn't care less, so do diaspora leaders...

[Nare]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Do you wake up in the morning and decide to make up facts? First, you tried and failed, to convince people here that georgia is better off than Armenia, now you are claiming that Russia is not an ally of Armenia?

And it is well known who funded the bolsheviks and who made up the large chunk of their leadership. It wasn't Orthodox Slavic Russians, I can tell you that.

Do you have a special group of ill mannered users here?!

It is not enough that you live in your dream world where you have allies ( which keep on killing our guys) you also get personal ...

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Please read this blog, from start to finish. Also, it is updated a few times a month.

I just started but one thing that leaped off the page was the recommendation to do business with China. Cultivating trade relations with China should be a priority for Armenia. We now have a small Armenian community in China. http://asbarez.com/83435/first-armen...tism-in-china/

I'll read the entire blog, but I just don't know about Russia and Armenia. What concerns me most is Putin's closeness to the British branch of the Rothschild family. It seemed that immediately after Putin returned from his sojourn at the Rothschild estate in England, the Russian government began to shift toward the Azeri side. Russia may be willing to toss Armenia overboard in order to be a player in the "Great Game."

Putin is a Russian patriot first and foremost. I do not doubt for a minute that he is some stooge of the anglo-american-zionist axis. And if you look at Russia's attitude since 1991, toward Armenia and azerbaijan, it is pretty clear that they have been more pro Armenia than azerbaijan. A lot of people forget that during the 90s Russia transferred up to $1 billion worth of military equipment to Armenia for free. We maintain much closer military and foreign policy cooperation with them than does azerbaijan, and most other former soviet countries for that matter.

And what do you mean Russia may be willing to toss Armenia in order to be a play in the Great Game? They are already a player in that game and thanks to the events of the 2008 Russo-georgian war, they are now the dominant player in the game, not just in the Caucasus but Central Asia as well.

For Russia, Armenia is the hammer they use to keep turks and azeris in check. They would lose much more than they'd gain by throwing away a willing ally like Armenia so as to align azerbaijan with them. The azeris pursue a pan-turkic agenda just as the turks do, what do you think their new foreign policy of 'neo-ottomanism' is all about? They can claim that it only means to have good relations with former ottoman subject nations, but actions speak louder than words, and the turks have got it in their head that they are a regional hegemon out to restore their lost glory. They won't get there if Armenia, Russia and Iran have a say in it, which they undoubtedly do!

[Mos]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I don't think Nare understands the fact that Armenia is much too weak to survive on its own and that Russia is the only power in the world today which has a interest in Armenia surviving and the strength to back it up. The USA and the zionists would like nothing better then for someone like LTP to take power again and destroy Armenia once and for all, they have proved this many times when LTP was president and when they tried their collor revolution afterward. The russian interest in Armenia is of course derived from self interest and we are lucky that this is so for no one else is willing to guerantee our security like Russia has for many decades. A important fact Nare and others here should not forget is that armenians in Armenia have never enjoyed the a higher quality of life then they did during soviet times (under russian rule). Today the average armenian citizen today is far worst off then the average citizen was during soviet days. The armenian population in our present day homeland is dwindeling because families cannot survive there but during soviet times survival was not an issue people had the necessities of life and were more concerned with intellectual matters. I dont think most people who are born in the west understand what Russia has done for Armenia and why we cannot rely on another power. Yes it is in Russias interest for Armenia to be there and to remain dependent and that is way better then our other options which invariably lead to total anniahlation of Armenia.

How was Levon pro-west though? He was a corrupt thug during his presidency, but I really don't see how his foreign policy was pro-West, it was very similar to today's foreign policy.