Armenian Georgian Relations

[gegev]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Today I talked to my friend, who is in Georgia now; he told me that he can’t return because of political turmoil their. He said that opposition took the public TV station.

What’s going on there? Does someone know any additional details about the situation in Georgia?

[Artsakh]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

US 'seizing our freedom,' says Georgia's opposition

An opposition party in Georgia has blasted the United States for propping up Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili’s regime, reiterating its call for a protest outside the U.S. Embassy in Tbilisi on Friday.

“We believe that Russia has seized our territories, but by this support [to Saakashvili], the U.S. administration is seizing our freedom, our sovereign right of free choice in our internal political affairs,” Erosi Kitsmarishvili, one of the founders of the opposition Georgian Party was quoted as saying by online news outlet Civil Georgia on Wednesday.


His comments echoed earlier remarks made by party co-leader and ex-Defense Minister Irakli Okruashvili.

Kitsmarishvili was speaking at a news conference convened after some of the other opposition parties slammed the Georgian Party for the planned rally and for Okruashvili’s remarks, in which he described the U.S. Embassy as a “torrent, poisoning Georgian society.”

“This statement is directed not against the Georgian authorities, but against Georgia as a whole,” said Levan Berdzenishvili of the Republican Party.

Georgian member of parliament Giorgi Targamadze, the leader of the Christian-Democratic Movement, or CDM, slammed Okruashvili’s remarks as unacceptable and said such a stance only contributed to strengthening the authorities’ position and would help create a situation from which Russia might benefit.

Nino Burjanadze, an ex-parliamentary speaker, the leader of the Democratic Movement-United Georgia party and a longtime critic of the Georgian Party, also said such statements only benefit the authorities.

“This statement is part of Saakashvili’s plan,” she said.

Burjanadze plans to launch street protests May 21 to force the president’s resignation.

“I’ve listened to various opposition parties’ statements about the remarks made by Irakli Okruashvili,” Kitsmarishvili said. “If someone wants to know what the people think, let them go and meet people... and ask them what they think about the U.S. administration’s support of the Saakashvili regime.”

“We are a sovereign state and we demand that not a single country should be interfering in our internal political affairs,” he said.

Kitsmarishvili also said that Georgian authorities were not following their democratic commitments as laid out in the U.S.-Georgia Strategic Charter, a document signed in January 2009 that vows mutual protection as well as recognizing “that democracy is the chief basis for political legitimacy.” Despite not upholding this democratic principle, the U.S. still supports the current regime, Kitsmarishvili said.

“Despite the terror against business and people, the U.S. administration still continues its financial support for the Saakashvili regime,” he said. “For that reason we think that expressing protest [outside the U.S. Embassy] will be important May 16.”

Protest rallies outside the U.S. Embassy are rare in Georgia, but there have been several occasions in past few years when the opposition held such rallies to protest against what they called the “U.S. support of the Saakashvili regime.” One such rally was held by the “Party of People” in January 2008, after the snap presidential elections, and another one was held by a group of opposition parties ahead of a meeting between President Saakashvili and then-U.S. President George W. Bush in March 2008.

After the 2008 presidential elections many opposition politicians voiced their criticism of the Bush administration for what they called “helping Saakashvili to legitimize fraudulent elections.” Mathew Bryza, who at the time was the U.S. Department of State’s point man for the Caucasus working for in the department’s Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs and is now the U.S. ambassador to Azerbaijan, was a frequent target of criticism.

The opposition’s rhetoric, however, has changed since then with many opposition politicians saying President Barack Obama’s administration is more inclined toward pressing the Georgian authorities on democratic reforms. Many opposition politicians have praised the U.S. ambassador to Georgia, John Bass, who has been serving in Tbilisi since October 2009, for what they call “adequately assessing” Georgia’s problems with democratic reforms.

[lampron]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

. The statue's value is/was overrated. Had it not been for the coverage of Erdogan wanting to destroy it, it was almost forgotten even.

it had a value. It showed that there is a sizeable group of Turks and Kurds who want better relations with Armenia, even genocide recognition

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Or he wanted it destroyed to play the nationalist card in an extremely nationalistic country where he and his party have come under fire for a whole bunch of reasons, from perceived challenging of the secular system to attempted normalisation of relations with Armenia over Azerbaijan. The statue's value is/was overrated. Had it not been for the coverage of Erdogan wanting to destroy it, it was almost forgotten even.

It was not being forgotten. Just because it was forgotten (or, closer to the truth, never noticed or understood or properly interpreted or used in an advantageous way) by Armenians, does not mean it was forgotten. It was not built by Armenians, it was not built for Armenians or at their request, it was not seen by more than a handful of Armenians.

Here is a lot of unedited video material about the monument, shot by someone from Kars, this one shows the removal of one of theheads, others including a large demonstration held at the monument to protest its destruction: http://www.youtube.com/user/baltunok#p/u/8/Rw870Awjqhc

[Federate]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

It was precisely its empty and incomplete nature that made it valuable, that made it a far better monument than anyone could have intended it to be, full of more nuances of meaning that its makers ever intended it to have. Why do you think it existed for Armenians? How many Armenians even saw it - a few hundred at most. Do you actually think Erdogan wanted it destroyed because it was ugly? Do you actually think Erdogan wanted it destroyed becasue it was built for some unrealised thawing in Armenian-Turkish relations. He wanted it destroyed because of what it was becoming, not because of what it was or why it was built.

Or he wanted it destroyed to play the nationalist card in an extremely nationalistic country where he and his party have come under fire for a whole bunch of reasons, from perceived challenging of the secular system to attempted normalisation of relations with Armenia over Azerbaijan. The statue's value is/was overrated. Had it not been for the coverage of Erdogan wanting to destroy it, it was almost forgotten even.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Good riddance for the Kars statue. Not only was it ugly and Erdogan had it right by calling it a "freak", but it was fake, just an empty shell. Armenian-Turkish relations did not materialise and that statue will not change anything either.

It was precisely its empty and incomplete nature that made it valuable, that made it a far better monument than anyone could have intended it to be, full of more nuances of meaning that its makers ever intended it to have. Why do you think it existed for Armenians? How many Armenians even saw it - a few hundred at most. Do you actually think Erdogan wanted it destroyed because it was ugly? Do you actually think Erdogan wanted it destroyed becasue it was built for some unrealised thawing in Armenian-Turkish relations. He wanted it destroyed because of what it was becoming, not because of what it was or why it was built.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Coming from the quintessential troll, I'll take that as a compliment. Some of us prefer to read and learn from other people's opinions. I post something when I think it's relevant. Judging by the general reaction to your posts, although you certainly surpass me in quantity, the quality of your postings leaves a bit to be desired.

The Russians, Turks, Iranians, Azeris and Georgians are all simultaneously making deals over the past two weeks - each of which is detrimental to Armenian interests. I posted a short paragraph pointing that out. A cheap, snide response was the best you could muster.

You are, of course, aware that caviling is a sign of an undeveloped mind.

In post 435 you posted a link to a propaganda source with no credibility and then went on to make wild allegations based on its content, content that was not based on facts. A troll is still a troll even if it makes just 9 posts in 4 years.

[arakeretzig]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Georgians will make their final mistake when they try to f0ck armenia in the ass, then they're finished. Russia will have the moral duty to end their republic once and for all. It's already heading that way.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

This is from Turkish Weekly.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/print.asp?type=1&id=114607

In the past couple of weeks, Russia and Turkey have established a visa-free trade zone; the Georgians voted unanimously that the Russians wouldn't be allowed to use their land or airspace for military transport to Armenia; PACE declared that the airport in Artsakh shouldn't be completed; the statue in Kars is dismantled; a group of US Congressmen is visiting Azerbaijan; and a group of US Congressmen introduce a resolution on April 23 recognizing the importance of Turkey as an ally. The Russians were completely ok with the the Georgian decision to prohibit any military aid to Armenia. Am I being paranoid or is a stranglehold being formed?

Don't think you should be especially worried. Russian-Turkish relations have always been limited to business and I don't see the signing of a visa-free trade zone affecting Armenia negatively. It could put Turkey on a tighter Russian leash, even.

For the Georgian land and airspace fiasco, are we really surprised at this? Even the Russians aren't surprised. The only thing i'm surprised about is that Georgia has been allowing it to go for this long! They are enemies and I think both Armenia and Russia was expecting this to happen sooner than later. What this might do actually is strengthen the Russia-Armenia-Iran axis because the Russians will now be forced to ship the weaponry from the Caspian sea to Iran and then to Armenia. Armenia won't be affected since i'm assuming Russia pays for all the costs of transportation given how they lease the base for free (fiscally).

PACE can yap all it wants, you think it will stop the construction of the Stepanakert civilian airport? These useless supranational organisations have passed many anti-Armenian resolutions for the last 20 years and nothing has happened. PACE especialy has such a history.

Good riddance for the Kars statue. Not only was it ugly and Erdogan had it right by calling it a "freak", but it was fake, just an empty shell. Armenian-Turkish relations did not materialise and that statue will not change anything either. Furthermore, this just ends up making them look bad and not Armenians.

US congressmen often visit random places. Former Vice President xxxx Cheney also visited Azerbaijan while he was in his last year or so as VP. Nothing happened, just diplomatic overtures to the Baku oil industry that already exist.

[Setta]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Coming from the quintessential troll, I'll take that as a compliment. Some of us prefer to read and learn from other people's opinions. I post something when I think it's relevant. Judging by the general reaction to your posts, although you certainly surpass me in quantity, the quality of your postings leaves a bit to be desired.

The Russians, Turks, Iranians, Azeris and Georgians are all simultaneously making deals over the past two weeks - each of which is detrimental to Armenian interests. I posted a short paragraph pointing that out. A cheap, snide response was the best you could muster.

You are, of course, aware that caviling is a sign of an undeveloped mind.