Armenian Georgian Relations

[lampron]

Re: Armenia and Georgia

We were too succesful to cope with, and that was the starting point of all our disaster because we were not prepared to fight and take up arms against the barbaric peoples who ought to destroy us.

I agree Armenians have not sacrificed themselves sufficiently.

Armenia could have been potentially much bigger than Georgia.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Armenia and Georgia

What has gone wrong? Just the same thing as what has gone wrong between us and the Turks, Georgians are not trustworthy and were jealous because we were so prosperous in Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Syria, Armenia, Iran at the end of the 19th century. We were by far one, if not, the richest people in the whole region.

Actualy, today I read a part of a book about the Armenians in Tiflis (a town build by Armenians, with a majority population that was Armenian).

We were too succesful to cope with, and that was the starting point of all our disaster because we were not prepared to fight and take up arms against the barbaric peoples who ought to destroy us.

[lampron]

Armenia and Georgia

700 years ago the two nations were close allies who together fought (and sometimes won) battles against Mongols, Tatars and Turcoman, Oghuz, Kara-Koyunlu, Ak-Koyunlu etc tribes.

What has gone wrong? Can the two nations become allies again?

[Federate]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

The pesky Georgians are at it again. Here is a video from inside the church http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deXYWMNJ5js
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Armenia Church is being destroyed in Georgia



Georgian religious leadership and Georgian state bodies responsible for preservation of monuments are planning to knock down Sourb Khack (Sat. Cross), a 7th century Armenian church in Akhaltshkha, Georgia, and replace it by a Georgian catholic church. A number of experts and workers have arrived at the site.

According to the Armenian priest in Akhaltshkha Ter Manouk Zeinalian, to the locals’ efforts at explaining that it’s an Armenian church and that no one has a right to ruin it, workers answer that they do not know anything and are just following orders. Father Zeinalian testifies that: “One of the altars has been destroyed and 4 stones with Armenian inscriptions have been unearthed from underneath. One of the stones has disappeared. One of the arches has been destroyed too. Armenians of Akhaltskha are demanding to stop the process. It’s an Armenian church and belongs to Armenians. ”

Leader of the Georgian Diocese of the Armenian Apostolic Church bishop Vazgen Mirzakhanian is visiting Akhaltskha to discuss the issue.

Note: This article, as with others collected by ArmeniaNow for this category, has been posted according to the originating source. ArmeniaNow is not responsible for content, nor for translation.

http://armenianow.com/arts_culture/22556/armenian_church_destoryed_in_georgia

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Samvel Karapetyan – “We mourn the fact that the Saint Gevorg of Mughni Church in Tbilisi has collapsed. But what about the fate of St. Nishan’s, just 100 meters way?
[ 2009/11/23 | 18:25 ] Feature Stories interview culture
Sona Avagyan



The Saint Gevorg of Mughni Armenian Church in Tbilisi had a height of some 35 meters and an attractive design, especially on the eastern exterior façade where there were depictions of the benefactors and main altar. There were only two churches with a similar footprint in all of Georgia. The other is St. Mesrop Church in the Shahumyan (formerly Metz Shulaver) settlement in the Marneuli region.

On November 19, the dome of St Gevorg’s came crashing down and the church collapsed. Samvel Karapetyan, who heads the Armenian Architectural Research NGO spoke to “Hetq” about the incident and its significance.

Did St. Gevorg’s collapse due to the fact that it was no longer structurally sound?

Yes, the church structure was unsafe. But this was a result of many decades of neglect. It was Georgia that saw to it that the church deteriorated to the point of collapse. That’s to say, the lead up to the collapse was the result of a specific policy.

Normally, if a structure that possesses some historical value is on the verge of collapse, immediate measures are taken to fortify and secure the building. For example take our churches at Ani that aren’t on the verge of collapsing, some that have only one or two loose stones. The Turks have set up support beams and braces. http://hetq.am/en/culture/21260/

Either Karapetyan hasn't set foot on Ani since those "beams and braces" were set up, or he actually doesn't uinderstand how to properly "fortify and secure" buildings.

http://www.virtualani.org/2008/index.htm

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

[SIZE="4"]Georgian Ambassador to RA promises to rebuild ruined Armenian Church in Tbilisi[SIZE]

Finally some good news from Georgian side. I hope they keep their promise. This is beyond bizarre to prefer Turkics (who are the biggest growing population in Georgia) over Armenians who have inputted so much into Georgia and were never anti-Georgian - most Armenians love Tiflis/Tbilisi like an Armenian city because it is so much tied to Armenian history along with Georgian one. I really hope Georgian leadership reviews its policies and realizes that without Armenia/Armenians - that counterbalances both Turkey and Azerbaijan - they will succumb to this very same Turkic factor within and without Georgia in not so distant future.

Armenian students and youth activists protested in front of the Georgian Embassy in Yerevan against the collapse of Surb Gevorg Armenian church, which happened as a result of complete neglect. This is the case with most of Armenian cultural monuments throughout Georgia (many Armenian churches have been illegally taken over by the Georgian Church). Surb Gevorg/Saint George collapsed only days before the Saint's holy day was celebrated throughout Georgia.

Georgian ambassador to RA has told the protesters that Surb Gevorg will be rebuilt by a combined Armenian-Georgian renovation team early next year.

Protest video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVlZEJLKMtQ

[Federate]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Georgian Ambassador to RA promises to rebuild ruined Armenian Church in Tbilisi
24.11.2009 17:18 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The Georgian Ambassador to Armenia Georgy Targamadze promised that the Armenian churches in Tbilisi will be restored and that they will have legal status. After that, the Armenian churches in Georgia will be passed under jurisdiction of the Armenian Apostolic Church, Narek Mantashyan, chairman of the Student Council at the Yerevan State Economic University said after a meeting with George Targamadze.

According to him, Georgia's Ambassador Georgy Targamadze informed that churches are destructed due to earthquakes, often occurring in Tbilisi within last months.

Surb Gevorg (Saint Gevorg) Armenian church, built in the Georgian capital in 1356 collapsed last Friday. Armenian Apostolic Church accused Georgian authorities of indifference to preservation of Armenian shrines, resulted in the destruction of the church.

http://panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=39835

[hipeter924]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I have to admit that is pretty sickening, it is likely that all the Armenian churches in Georgia will suffer the same fate, the other Christian faiths stay silent....wonder why? But I would say this is more as a result of the Azeri's taking a dangerous hold over Georgia.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Samvel Karapetyan – “We mourn the fact that the Saint Gevorg of Mughni Church in Tbilisi has collapsed. But what about the fate of St. Nishan’s, just 100 meters way?
[ 2009/11/23 | 18:25 ] Feature Stories interview culture
Sona Avagyan



The Saint Gevorg of Mughni Armenian Church in Tbilisi had a height of some 35 meters and an attractive design, especially on the eastern exterior façade where there were depictions of the benefactors and main altar. There were only two churches with a similar footprint in all of Georgia. The other is St. Mesrop Church in the Shahumyan (formerly Metz Shulaver) settlement in the Marneuli region.

On November 19, the dome of St Gevorg’s came crashing down and the church collapsed. Samvel Karapetyan, who heads the Armenian Architectural Research NGO spoke to “Hetq” about the incident and its significance.

Did St. Gevorg’s collapse due to the fact that it was no longer structurally sound?

Yes, the church structure was unsafe. But this was a result of many decades of neglect. It was Georgia that saw to it that the church deteriorated to the point of collapse. That’s to say, the lead up to the collapse was the result of a specific policy.

Normally, if a structure that possesses some historical value is on the verge of collapse, immediate measures are taken to fortify and secure the building. For example take our churches at Ani that aren’t on the verge of collapsing, some that have only one or two loose stones. The Turks have set up support beams and braces. The same should have been done in the case of St. Gevorg in order to fortify the structure, despite being unsound. The Georgian government can now state ‘we don’t have the requisite funds’, but structural fortifications could have been placed at fairly low cost.

Did anyone raise this concern with the Georgian government? That the church was prone to collapse without necessary renovations?

I know that in 1990, at the end of the Soviet regime, Armenia’s Department of Monuments’ Preservation raised the issue, but I have no knowledge if the issue was raised since then, in the past twenty years. I would assume that it wasn’t.

Wasn’t St. Gevorg’s an Armenian church that had been Georgianized?

No, it hadn’t been subjected to this process. The Georgians were well aware of the church’s poor structural condition and that it would eventually collapse in a few years anyway. That’s why they left it alone. Had it been co-opted, the Georgians would need to have spent huge amounts to repair and renovate the church. In addition, St. Gevorg’s of Mughni, is a church that has played a prominent role on the life of the Armenian community of Tbilisi. Had the Georgians sought to co-opt the church, it would have created a great deal of commotion. Thus, they decided that it would be more convenient for them in the long-run to keep the church in a state of disrepair and wait for its eventual collapse.

During the years 1988-1989, the church served as the Folk Arts Museum. There were various exhibits displayed inside. In 1989, the museum moved and so did all the items on display. At the time, the walls were already showing hairline cracks. I had occasion to visit the church last year. The cracks had grown so large that one could pass through the walls and enter the church. In the twenty years since 1989, one can honestly state that the church’s eventual collapse was the result of official design.

In your estimation, does it now even make sense to talk about the rebuilding of St. Gevorg’s?

Believe me, restoration of the church is a moot point. First of all, the church was a brick structure and when such a church collapses all that’s left is a pile of useless rubble. The same fate befell the Shamkoretsots Karmir Avetaran Church in Havlabar (an historic Armenian neighborhood in Tbilisi) that was blown up in April, 1989. It too was beyond rebuilding since it was a brick structure as well and had been transformed to a heap of rubble. I am convinced that we have lost St. Gevorg of Mughni forever. We didn’t raise the issue of the blowing-up of the Karmir Avetaran Church and now, this church, collapsed on its own. Back then, the Armenian community proposed to the government that they be allowed to pay for the renovation of Shamkoretsots. They not only refused the request but blew-up the church as well.

I can’t say if the Armenian community made a similar request to the government regarding St. Gevorg’s. My guess is that they haven’t. Why? Just take a look at the condition of St Nishan’s. We have about 80,000-100,000 Armenians in Tbilisi alone and many more throughout all of Georgia. Several years ago the church was set ablaze. It still stands but after the fire it’s become deserted; a semi-ruined structure that is now used as a public toilet. And this is sacrilege is happening before the eyes of the Armenian community in Tbilisi.

St Gevorg’s and St. Nishan’s are in close proximity to one another; separated by a mere 100 meters or so. One has collapsed due to years of neglect and we have no knowledge of any official petition by the community or the Diocese (yes, we do have an official Church See there) to the Georgian authorities expressing the desire or will to renovate it. This is also true for St. Nishan’s. Today we mourn the loss of St. Gevorg’s but what about the condition of St. Nishan’s, a church that still stands? Does it await the same fate?

http://hetq.am/en/culture/21260/

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

In case of war I would expect Russia, if not directly then via Abkhazia & S. Ossetia to join in against georgia. If Russia can't control georgia than the second best option is the elimination of georgia from the south caucasus. Also, I am not sure if georgia would be able to overtake Javakhti Armenian forces if the latter was able to establish control over the region, not to mention actual Armenian Army. There is a lot of things that can play out but one thing that seems clear is that the georgian government did not learn its lesson from August 2008. They are just as chauvinistic as ever.