Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Of course, we can use "-elu em" for every single verb but sometimes it just doesn't make perfect sense ( at least to me) when you try to put it ( -elu em) into a context:

Lucin Jan, perhaps it does not make "perfect sense" to you because your ears are not used to it. However, that does not mean it's not right. I think the error you are making here is comparing Armenian to English. In other words, you are using English as the standard to which Armenian, or any other language, needs to be compared to. This is a serious mistake, the two languages need to be assessed separately.

There is no phrase or thought in English that can't be completely translated into Armenian. However, there are Armenian thoughts and phrases that simply can't get accurately translate into English, or many other languages. When you evaluate the English translations of famous Armenian writers you will see what I mean.

I will be studying when you come.= Yerp vor gas, sovorelu em?? "sovorelu em" in itself sounds fine but in the context...
I will be eating lunch when you arrive. = Yerp vor hasnes, jashelu em??
I will be sleeping when you come. = Yerp vor gas, knelu em.
How do these sentences(in Armenian) sound to your ears?

You can use these Armenian phrases with some effect. However, these thoughts are conveyed a bit differently in Armenian.

Try, for example:

Երբ հասնես (ժամանես) քունի մեչ պիտի լինեմ:

Երբ հասնես (ժամանես) ճաշի ընթացքում պիտի լինեմ:

However, the best way to express thoughts in question is to say:

Երբ հասնես քնած կ'լինեմ:

Երբ հասնես ճաշի նստած կ'լինեմ:

Note that you can use the Armenian word Պիտի for 'will.' Also the most important issue here is not direct translation, it is the accurate conveyance of the thought or phrase in question.

(I said that since I feel (I might be wrong) sometimes there is little or no difference between the future continuous ( gnalu em) and the simple future ( k'gnam) especially when the future event will occur at an indefinite time in the future.)

There is a difference between the two. You don't see it or feel it because you ears are in essence saturated by Persian and English on a daily basis.

Գնալու եմ: I will be going

Պիտի գնամ: I will go

կ'գնամ: I go

Գնամ: I go???

Which brings to mind: How would Սիրեմ be translated in English?

(The fact that some tenses in Armenian are the same such as present simple and present continuous however it can be resolved within the context. Some other languages such as French have similar "shortcomings".)

Please give me some examples. Thus far I have not seen any viable examples.

God knows where it's heading. It's getting worse day by day in the Diaspora. The տափակ, գիւղացի Armenian some Diasporans speak is just sickening...

Using English as the standard to which Armenian must be compared to is in itself an example of the sad state of our attitude towards our language in the Diaspora. It essentially reveals how inferior we feel Armenian is to other languages, albeit subconsciously. I don't think anyone of us here is proficient enough in the Armenian language to make any claims about the language's "shortcomings."

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Present simple: I go = Գնում եմ շուկայ: ( meaning that you go there on a regular basis)

Present continuous: I am going = Գնում եմ շուկայ: ( meaning that I am going now or in the near future)
( In the Eastern Armenian, the present simple and present continuous are presented by one single tense)

Շուկայ եմ գնում - I'm going to the market

Շուկայ կգնամ - I go to the market

Future simple: I will go = Կ'գնամ

Not correct. It should be: Պիտի գնամ or Գնալու եմ

Have to/ Must I have to ( must) go = Պիտի գնամ

Not correct. It should be Պետք է գնամ

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Siamanto, I would only consider Wiki a good source of grammar if the authors were actually experts on Armenian language.

karoaper, I know how Wikipedia is built and evolves and when compared to a more extensive source it seems accurate; so far, it proved to be an accurate reference. Also, compared to a more extensive source, it has the advantage to be a bit more concise. However, if you prefer a more extensive source as reference, please consider Armenian Language Lessons: Verbs (Part I)

So as long as it is consistent with other sources and as long as you can't point to inaccuracies, I would consider Wikipedia's Armenian Verbs as an acceptable reference. I consult both references before I post and I suggest that you consider them, as your understanding of the grammar seems quite subjective.

As for what you think is an inaccuracy; we will see below that it seems to reflect your confusion between the future and the conditional.

In any case, if you know a more reliable reference than the two mentioned above; please, share it us. In the meantime, I will consider one - or both - of the them as a reference, as I find them to be far more reliable than your subjective understanding. Maybe, you should consult a reference of your choice before posting, as you seem to be rewriting the grammar of Eastern Armenian as you understand it, and no reference seems to agree with you.

But still, from the Wiki, the example for the Imperfect is:
-- Nrank' im girk'ә kardum ēin (They were reading/would read my book)

"They were reading" seems like a past continuous to me.

In case you did not see it, it says both "They were reading" and "They would read;" such a semantic ambiguity simply means that the underlying grammar (of Eastern Armenian) does not allow to syntactically distinguish them - i.e. distinguish the continuous form.
I don't understand why it is an issue for you to admit the obvious, as none of the manuals that I have checked mentions the continuous form???
The French - that includes more cases i.e. tenses/moods/aspects/...than the Armenian, including the ones that you've mentioned - is known to be missing the continuous aspect/form; instead of denying the facts, as some of you seem to do, they have wisely enriched their language with a simple solution, mentioned in earlier posts.

According to Wiki, Eastern Armenian does not use the k' prefix. I can tell you that that is wrong. As a practitioner of Eastern, the k' prefix is used to denote the simple future tense as in "myus tari Hayastanum ksksven @ntrutiunner@" (Elections will start in Armenia next year).

As some do, I think that you're confusing the future and the conditional. Please see below or consult a reference of your choice.

Conditional or subjunctive mood

Պայմանական կամ ըղձական եղանակ

Section 165

The conditional mood has two tenses, future and future perfect.

Section 166

The future tense of the conditional mood shows an action accomplishment of which in the future is supposable or conditioned. The future tense of the conditional mood forms by means of the modal particle կ, which is prefixed to the forms of the future tense of the optative mood.

Future tense of optative mood Future tense of conditional mood Sing. Plur. Sing., Plur. 1. լսեմ լսենք կլսեմ I will hear կլսենք we will hear 2. լսես լսեք կլսես you - - կլսեք you - - 3. լսի լսեն կլսի he - - կլսեն they - -

1. գնամ գնանք կգնամ I will go կգնանք we will go 2. գնաս գնաք կգնաս you - - կգնաք you - - 3. գնա գնան կգնա he - - կգնան they - -

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Language_Lessons_Chapter_6a#Conditional_or_subjunctive_mood

In fact, this is how I see the use of the two endings "um/e(a)lu" with the present/past forms of the "to be" verb, "em/ei". Example verb "gnal".

-gnum em: As mentioned this is used for both the present continuous, as "Yes zrucumem AC forumum" (I'm chatting on AC forum), and in simple present "Yes aprum em Americaum" (I live in US).

-gnum ei: This is "I was going", as in "Erek poghocov kaylum ei u @nenc mi hat nanar tesa" (I was walking on the street ...) --- past continious.

-gnalu em: This is "I will be going" or "I am going to go", as in "Vagh@ yerkelu em @nkerochs harsanikin" (tomorrow I will be singing ...) --- future continuous

-gnalu ei: This one is "I was going to go", as on "ancial tari gnalu ei Hayastan baic pdi mikich spasei" --- I don't know what you'd call this one

You seem to be rewriting the Armenian Grammar as you please - or understand. Please check one of the references - or one of your choice. Apparently, your understanding does not seem to be conform to the accepted grammatical rules.
The first is the imperfect, the second is the future and the third is the future perfect.

There is also as Armenian suggested the

-gnacel em --- "I have gone", which is the perfect present tense, as in "Arten tomss arrel em" (I have already bought the ticket)

-gnacel ei --- "Minchev for @nkers ekav, menk arten durs eink gnacel" (By the time he came, we had already left") --- past perfect

LOL You expect me to take seriously Armenian who translates the conditional as "I go" and you won't consider Wikipedia's page as a possible reference??? I appreciate your sense of humor.

In any case, none of the above is continuous, I'm afraid that you are confusing the different tenses. Please, see below.

Past and plusquamperfect tenses

Վաղակատար և անցյալի վաղակատար ժամանակներ

Section 154

The past tense (վաղակատար ժամանակ) shows an action that happened before the moment of speaking.

Նա ավարտել է իր աշխատանքը:
He finished his work.
Քո նամակը ստացել եմ:
I received your letter.

The past tense is formed by means of the past participle and personal forms of the auxiliary verb of the present tense.

Singular Plural

1. լսել եմ I listened 1. լսել ենք we listened 2. լսել ես you listened 2. լսել եք you listened 3. լսել է he listened 3. լսել են they listened

1. գնացել եմ I went 1. գնացել ենք we went 2. գնացել ես you went 2. գնացել եք you went 3. գնացել է he went 3. գնացել են they went

Section 155

Plusquamperfect tense (անցյալի վաղակատար ժամանակ) shows the past action accomplished before a given past moment and viewed back from that past moment.

Երեկ, երբ դու եկար ինձ մոտ, ես նամակն արդեն գրել էի:
Yesterday, when you came to me, I had already written the letter.
Երբ նա հասավ կայարան, գնացքն արդեն շարժվել էր:
When he went to the station, the train had already left.

Section 156

The plusquamperfect tense is formed by means of the past participle and personal forms of the auxiliary verbs of the past tense.

Singular Plural

1. լսել էի I had heard լսել էինք we had heard 2. լսել էիր you had heard լսել էիք you had heard 3. լսել էր he had heard լսել էին they had heard

1. գնացել էի I had gone գնացել էինք we had gone 2. գնացել էիր you had gone գնացել էիք you had gone 3. գնացել էր he had gone գնացել էին they had gone

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Language_Lessons_Chapter_6a#Past_and_plusquamperfect_tenses

Anyways, I'm far far from any sort of expert (unfortunately), but to my unpracticed (unfortunately) ears this is how it is.

karoaper, I can tell that you're not an expert, so checking one of the references before posting may help???

[womble]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Շուկայ եմ գնում - I'm going to the market

Շուկայ կգնամ - I go to the market

Quote:
Future simple: I will go = Կ'գնամ


Not correct. It should be: Պիտի գնամ or Գնալու եմ

Quote:
Have to/ Must I have to ( must) go = Պիտի գնամ


Not correct. It should be Պետք է գնամ

I'm certainly no expert, but I think some confusion may be occuring as a result of differing usages between Eastern and Western Armenian. For example:

Կգնամ, in Eastern Armenian = 'I will go' (as opposed to գնալու եմ - 'I will be going'. However, in Western Armenian, the Կը prefix indicates the present or past tense of the indicative mood, thus Կ'երթամ = 'I go'.

Պիտի գնամ , in Eastern Armenian = I must/should go, while in Western Armenian Պիտի indicates the future tense, hence Պիտի երթամ = I will go.

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Of course, we can use "-elu em" for every single verb but sometimes it just doesn't make perfect sense ( at least to me) when you try to put it ( -elu em) into a context:
I will be studying when you come.= Yerp vor gas, sovorelu em?? "sovorelu em" in itself sounds fine but in the context...
I will be eating lunch when you arrive. = Yerp vor hasnes, jashelu em??
I will be sleeping when you come. = Yerp vor gas, knelu em.
How do these sentences(in Armenian) sound to your ears?

Lucin, those are indeed interesting and more importantly do not contain the future continuous tense. I wonder if the culprit is the "when ...". This might be like cheating but if you change the sentences to:
"Ko galu jamanak yes sovorelu em"
"Ko aycelutian @ntackum yes jashelu em"

The sentence you gave on the other hand are examples of "I am going to ...", like "When you come I am going to sleep". So maybe that's another use for the "elu em", like the "elu ei" is "was going to ..."

Also, for the "I will be sleeping when you arrive", the closest Armenian version is "Vor gas yes klinem qnats" (literally "when you come I will be asleep"), which really is the meaning behind "I will be sleeping when you arrive". That could explain why the "elu em" doesn't work in that context.
The continuous to me signifies a process that lasts some time.

Verdict: Armenian grammar is a true chameleon or a Transformer, as far as grammars are concerned.

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Present simple: I go = Գնում եմ շուկայ: ( meaning that you go there on a regular basis)

Present continuous: I am going = Գնում եմ շուկայ: ( meaning that I am going now or in the near future)
( In the Eastern Armenian, the present simple and present continuous are presented by one single tense)

Past continuous: I was going = Գնում էի:

Future simple: I will go = Կ'գնամ

Past simple: I went = Գնացի

Present perfent: I have gone = Գնացել եմ

Past perfect: I had gone = Գնացել էի

Have to/ Must I have to ( must) go = Պիտի գնամ

Conditionel: If I go : Եթէ գնամ

Just my understanding...

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Խփելու եմ...

Վազելու եմ...

ՈՒտելու եմ...

Հանելու եմ...

What verbs does it not work with? I can't think of any.

Lucin jan, you mentioned that the future continuous doesn't work with many verbs. I just woke up but I can't think of one. Can't you just add the "-elu em" to any verb?

Of course, we can use "-elu em" for every single verb but sometimes it just doesn't make perfect sense ( at least to me) when you try to put it ( -elu em) into a context:
I will be studying when you come.= Yerp vor gas, sovorelu em?? "sovorelu em" in itself sounds fine but in the context...
I will be eating lunch when you arrive. = Yerp vor hasnes, jashelu em??
I will be sleeping when you come. = Yerp vor gas, knelu em.
How do these sentences(in Armenian) sound to your ears?

(I said that since I feel (I might be wrong) sometimes there is little or no difference between the future continuous ( gnalu em) and the simple future ( k'gnam) especially when the future event will occur at an indefinite time in the future.)

I don't understand. What's the big issue? What can be an impediment for our translators? In my opinion, there is not a language, especially an Indo-European one, that can't be translated to near perfection by the usage of Armenian. As a matter of fact, the Armenian language can not be done justice by translating it into English. Have you read some of the translations of Armenian poetry into English by English linguists? They are awful. And have you read Shakespeare's works translated into Armenian? They are flawless. Regardless of its current size, English is a very poor language in many ways, if it can even be called a language.

(The fact that some tenses in Armenian are the same such as present simple and present continuous however it can be resolved within the context. Some other languages such as French have similar "shortcomings".)
No doubt in the perfection of our unique, beautiful language and alphabet in many regards;
Modern Armenian alphabet with its 38 unique and individual signs is closest to perfection when it comes to representing human's speech. Latin ( its alphabet) is probably the most widespread of all but it definitely lacks the ability to meet speech habits and sounds of different nationalities while the Armenian alphabet can be adapted to any human speech without the use of subsidiary characters, marks, dots,etc.
In reality, Armenian is the only living language with absolute symbol for sound-alphabet. ( Not according to me)

Nonetheless, I don't think anyone of us here are truly proficient enough in the Armenian language to make definitive claims about its nature one way or another. Sadly, Armenian speakers, that is speakers of true Armenian, are a minority within our nation. Overwhelming majority of Armenians today, including myself, speak a form of Armenbonics.

God knows where it's heading. It's getting worse day by day in the Diaspora.
The տափակ, գիւղացի Armenian some Diasporans speak is just sickening...

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Pronunciation rules and spelling rules are different; according to your reasoning, it should be "Il estallé" instead of "Il est allé." I'm afraid that it makes no sense.
Regardless of pronunciation, words are separated when spelled; it's a basic rule.

We write ի՞նչ ես անում but the phonetic is [ ինչես անում], so is the pronunciation. It is one of the rules of Armenian language.( I'm not talking about the spelling)

Գրում եմ [Գրումեմ]
Կարդում եմ [Կարդումեմ]
Քնած էի [Քնածէի]

See what I mean?

The ''eastern dialect'' has the correct pronouncing and the ''western dialect'' the correct spelling.

Wrong. Parskahays 'have' both; the correct pronouncing and the Mashtotsian spelling.

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Ապեր, գիտե՞ս որ ցեխին քար ես քցում:

Ապեր, այդ պատճառով էլ փորցում եմ վիճաբանությունները հաճելի պահել: Թե չե իրոք ցեխը շատ հեշտ կտարածվի (Շիամանթո նկատի «կտարածվի», վոչ թե «տարածվելու է» ): Դե տեսնենք էլի:

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Եղբայր, գիտե՞ս որ ցեխին քար ես քցում: