Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Siamanto, I would only consider Wiki a good source of grammar if the authors were actually experts on Armenian language.

But still, from the Wiki, the example for the Imperfect is:
-- Nrank' im girk'ә kardum ēin (They were reading/would read my book)

"They were reading" seems like a past continuous to me.

According to Wiki, Eastern Armenian does not use the k' prefix. I can tell you that that is wrong. As a practitioner of Eastern, the k' prefix is used to denote the simple future tense as in "myus tari Hayastanum ksksven @ntrutiunner@" (Elections will start in Armenia next year).

In fact, this is how I see the use of the two endings "um/e(a)lu" with the present/past forms of the "to be" verb, "em/ei". Example verb "gnal".

-gnum em: As mentioned this is used for both the present continuous, as "Yes zrucumem AC forumum" (I'm chatting on AC forum), and in simple present "Yes aprum em Americaum" (I live in US).

-gnum ei: This is "I was going", as in "Erek poghocov kaylum ei u @nenc mi hat nanar tesa" (I was walking on the street ...) --- past continious.

-gnalu em: This is "I will be going" or "I am going to go", as in "Vagh@ yerkelu em @nkerochs harsanikin" (tomorrow I will be singing ...) --- future continuous

-gnalu ei: This one is "I was going to go", as on "ancial tari gnalu ei Hayastan baic pdi mikich spasei" --- I don't know what you'd call this one

There is also as Armenian suggested the

-gnacel em --- "I have gone", which is the perfect present tense, as in "Arten tomss arrel em" (I have already bought the ticket)

-gnacel ei --- "Minchev for @nkers ekav, menk arten durs eink gnacel" (By the time he came, we had already left") --- past perfect

Anyways, I'm far far from any sort of expert (unfortunately), but to my unpracticed (unfortunately) ears this is how it is.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

OK let's see.

Thanks, but, as shown below, not even close???? Please check this simple introduction to Armenian Verbs

Simple future - կխանգարեմ, կգնամ, կխոսեմ, կնվագեմ

This is the conditional, not the future.

Future cont - խանգարելու եմ, գնալու եմ, խոսելու եմ, նվագելու եմ

This is the simple future, not the continuous form of it.

Simple past - խանգարեցի, գնացի, խոսեցի, նվագեցի

This is the preterite or simple past.

Past cont - խանգարում էի, գնում էի, խոսում էի, նվագում էի

This is the Imperfect, not the continuous form of the past.


Good Night!

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

OK let's see.

Simple future - կխանգարեմ, կգնամ, կխոսեմ, կնվագեմ
Future cont - խանգարելու եմ, գնալու եմ, խոսելու եմ, նվագելու եմ

Simple past - խանգարեցի, գնացի, խոսեցի, նվագեցի
Past cont - խանգարում էի, գնում էի, խոսում էի, նվագում էի

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

"Yes gnum em" can mean "I am going" as well as "I go" and the "-um" in "gnum" cannot indicate the continuous tense; as it's the same in the present simple.

Lucin jan, I disagree.

Գնում եմ = I am going

Կ'գնամ = I go

Կ'երթամ = I go

Գնալու եմ = I will be going

Պիտի գնամ = I will go

Գնացի = I went

Գնացելեյի = I had gone

Եվայլն...

Նշում: Բայեր - երրթալ և գնալ - նույն նշանակութիւնն ունեն:

Karoaper said; I will be going= Yes gnalu em, but again it does not work with quite a lot of verbs, and we tend to use more, the future simple instead.

Խփելու եմ...

Վազելու եմ...

ՈՒտելու եմ...

Հանելու եմ...

What verbs does it not work with? I can't think of any.

It might not be a big issue for us but it'd definitely be an impediment for our translators.

I don't understand. What's the big issue? What can be an impediment for our translators? In my opinion, there is not a language, especially an Indo-European one, that can't be translated to near perfection by the usage of Armenian. As a matter of fact, the Armenian language can not be done justice by translating it into English. Have you read some of the translations of Armenian poetry into English by English linguists? They are awful. And have you read Shakespeare's works translated into Armenian? They are flawless. Regardless of its current size, English is a very poor language in many ways, if it can even be called a language.

Nonetheless, I don't think anyone of us here are truly proficient enough in the Armenian language to make definitive claims about its nature one way or another. Sadly, Armenian speakers, that is speakers of true Armenian, are a minority within our nation. Overwhelming majority of Armenians today, including myself, speak a form of Armenbonics.

The purest form of Armenian that can be heard today is within some of the Armenian news reports that are broadcast from the Armenian Republic. And I bet a vast majority of us Armenian speakers in the Diaspora will not understand much of what is being spoken.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Yeah, we indeed do have the same form for present continuous and the present indefinite.

From the above, I can simply conclude that the grammar of Eastern Armenian does not provide a syntax to express the continuous form.

I think that's the only confusion though. The situation with other continuous forms is unambiguous. I'd say that since we have the past continuous and the future continuous, as I had mentioned in the previous post, the form "-um em" is primarily for the present continuous tense.

If that is the case, why don't you show us how the grammar of Eastern Armenian allows to syntactically distinguish the continuous form from the non-continuous in the other tenses?
Apparently, Armenian, Eastern or not, does not allow it.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Though the correct syntax may be "Intch es anum" - not "Intches anum," if one should be grammatically correct; the "degenerate" interrogative form is relatively common in languages, when spoken.

Iharke, the correct syntax should be "inch es anum?", and this is uniquely the written form of the verbs. But, as a rule, verbs must be pronounced attached (inches anum?) when spoken or when an article, a text (or anything) is being read.

Pronunciation rules and spelling rules are different; according to your reasoning, it should be "Il estallé" instead of "Il est allé." I'm afraid that it makes no sense.
Regardless of pronunciation, words are separated when spelled; it's a basic rule.

Using temporal adverbs or "paraphrasing" - what I usually do - is not a solution, but only a workaround that works sometimes; in fact
1. Both "I am exercising" - for instance, as a recurrent activity - and "I am exercising, now" are valid and have different meanings and a temporal adverb is already used in the latter
2. "I swim, now" - i.e. I did not in the past, but I do now - does not mean "I am swimming;" using temporal adverbs when translating would confuse the two

Yes, unfortunately it just works sometimes and mainly in the present continuous tense with certain verbs. The progressive meaning is mainly indicated by the context in the Eastern dialect.
As for what Karo said; "Yes gnum em" can mean "I am going" as well as "I go" and the "-um" in "gnum" cannot indicate the continuous tense; as it's the same in the present simple.( It's the infinitif "gnal" which has been tranformed into "gnum" in conjugation.)

From the above, I can simply conclude that the grammar of Eastern Armenian does not provide a syntax to express the continuous form. It is a serious shortcoming.

I wonder how it is handled in some little known and spoken dialects such as the ones spoken in the region of Kessab, Syria and Mussa Dagh - I'm not sure, but I think that they are are related????

There are many such examples and some are real subtle and/or complicated. Furthermore, It becomes more complicated and subtle when the action happens - or is happening - in the past or the future.

For the future continuous, again we do have problems ( as you said). Karoaper said; I will be going= Yes gnalu em, but again it does not work with quite a lot of verbs, and we tend to use more, the future simple instead.

Apparently, the future continuous form does not exist in French either.( As there are only two main future tenses.)

As I have pointed out in an earlier post, the French has the same problem as the Armenian - not only in the future tense.

I have a certain "bias" against "gor" and I do a lot of effort to avoid using it; however, I can't deny that it's existence is legitimate and reflects a serious shortcoming of the Armenian language - that was solved in spoken Western Armenian with the usage of "gor." Armenian grammarians and linguists, instead of criticizing and snubbing the usage of "gor," should maybe work on a solution; as they are responsible for the situation.

It might not be a big issue for us but it'd definitely be an impediment for our translators.

The lack of a simple syntax to express the continuous action/activity/...is a serious shortcoming - not only for translators; the wide adoption of "gor" reflects the importance? I still think that Armenian linguists and grammarians are responsible for the situation and, obviously, they did not do a good job.

A simple solution - as it is in French - may be found.

Etre en train de...?? Again it is not a seperate tense as in English, it's more like a made-up formula. And at times, the simple future is used instead.
I was a bit underestimating English ( compared to some other languages) but its grammar seems pretty subtle, detailed and complete, at least when it comes to verb tenses.

It was never suggested that the French had a separate tense, at the contrary; in fact, I have said in an earlier post

1. "Gor" is used to fill a shortcoming of the Armenian language where the continuous forms of verb tenses do not exist - i.e. I am going, I was going etc. By the way, other languages - i.e. the French - lack the continuous form.

And "être en train de"" is a simple solution: it is applied in a uniform way in all tenses. By the way, it has a similar pattern to the English syntax.

[Կարմիր Բ]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

The ''eastern dialect'' has the correct pronouncing and the ''western dialect'' the correct spelling.

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Yeah, we indeed do have the same form for present continuous and the present indefinite.

I think that's the only confusion though. The situation with other continuous forms is unambiguous. I'd say that since we have the past continuous and the future continuous, as I had mentioned in the previous post, the form "-um em" is primarily for the present continuous tense.

Lucin jan, you mentioned that the future continuous doesn't work with many verbs. I just woke up but I can't think of one. Can't you just add the "-elu em" to any verb?

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Though the correct syntax may be "Intch es anum" - not "Intches anum," if one should be grammatically correct; the "degenerate" interrogative form is relatively common in languages, when spoken.

Iharke, the correct syntax should be "inch es anum?", and this is uniquely the written form of the verbs. But, as a rule, verbs must be pronounced attached (inches anum?) when spoken or when an article, a text (or anything) is being read.

Using temporal adverbs or "paraphrasing" - what I usually do - is not a solution, but only a workaround that works sometimes; in fact
1. Both "I am exercising" - for instance, as a recurrent activity - and "I am exercising, now" are valid and have different meanings and a temporal adverb is already used in the latter
2. "I swim, now" - i.e. I did not in the past, but I do now - does not mean "I am swimming;" using temporal adverbs when translating would confuse the two

Yes, unfortunately it just works sometimes and mainly in the present continuous tense with certain verbs. The progressive meaning is mainly indicated by the context in the Eastern dialect.
As for what Karo said; "Yes gnum em" can mean "I am going" as well as "I go" and the "-um" in "gnum" cannot indicate the continuous tense; as it's the same in the present simple.( It's the infinitif "gnal" which has been tranformed into "gnum" in conjugation.)

There are many such examples and some are real subtle and/or complicated. Furthermore, It becomes more complicated and subtle when the action happens - or is happening - in the past or the future.

For the future continuous, again we do have problems ( as you said). Karoaper said; I will be going= Yes gnalu em, but again it does not work with quite a lot of verbs, and we tend to use more, the future simple instead.

Apparently, the future continuous form does not exist in French either.( As there are only two main future tenses.)

I have a certain "bias" against "gor" and I do a lot of effort to avoid using it; however, I can't deny that it's existence is legitimate and reflects a serious shortcoming of the Armenian language - that was solved in spoken Western Armenian with the usage of "gor." Armenian grammarians and linguists, instead of criticizing and snubbing the usage of "gor," should maybe work on a solution; as they are responsible for the situation.

It might not be a big issue for us but it'd definitely be an impediment for our translators.

A simple solution - as it is in French - may be found.

Etre en train de...?? Again it is not a seperate tense as in English, it's more like a made-up formula. And at times, the simple future is used instead.
I was a bit underestimating English ( compared to some other languages) but its grammar seems pretty subtle, detailed and complete, at least when it comes to verb tenses.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

I think the continuous is well defined in Eastern:

I am going (pres cont) - Yes gnum em
I was going (past cont) - Yes gnum ei
I will be going (future cont) - Yes gnalu em as opposed to Yes kgnam (simple future) which is I will go.
I would have been going (weird cont) - Yes gnalu ei

I'm afraid that the above does not answer the simple question raised earlier: How do you distinguish, in Eastern Armenian, between "I go" and "I am going?" In case, you'll suggest to use temporal adverbs, please refer to my reply to Lucin. Thanks.

So, maybe the continuous in not defined in Western, because the -um suffix is not used in Western? So, to distinguish the future continuous from simple future tense, the Western Armenian adds "gor". I don't know, is this right?

Yes, as mentioned above, the continuous form does not exist in Western Armenian and the usage of "gor" seems to be a solution in the spoken language. However, according to some - including Armenian Verbs or Verbs in Eastern Armenian - the form that you have suggested above is not the continuous form??? In other words, some seem to think that "um" does not indicate the continuous form????