Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Համաձայն եմ... Ոչ միայն անգլերէնը այլ ոչ մի ուրիշ լեզու չի կարող որպէս «ստանդարտ» հանդիսանալ մեզ համար բայց կարելի է թարգմանական դիտանկիւնից մոտենալ հարցին...

Այո, կարելի է թարգմանական դիտանկիւնից մոտենալ հարցին առանց որեվէ «չափանիշ»ներ գործածելով: Յուրաքանչյուր լեզու ունի իր հատկութիւնները: ՈՒստի, հարցը այստեղ պարզապես մտքի կամ եզրի փոխանցումն է:

That's what I'm trying to say we just can't add categorically "-elu em" to every single verb, since those verbs and the thoughts they contain, are conveyed differently in Armenian.

I agree. I just objected you call it a "shortcoming" in the language. I think your initial premise towards the matter (նախադրյալ կեցվածքդ) was flawed.

So I prefer "Երբ հասնես քնած կ'լինեմ" to " երբ հասնես քնելու եմ " or "Երբ հասնես քունի մէջ պիտի լինեմ". Also, this shows pretty much the flexibility of Armenian.

Like I said in my previous post, this is due to the ancient nature of the language. In reality, the Armenian language should have branched-off into dozens of languages during the last several thousand years. However, due to circumstances of the region in question, it did not. Nevertheless, some nationalists do claim that all Indo-European languages did emerge from proto-Armenian several thousand years ago.

Shall I love? Սիրե՞մ... Ոչ մի ելք խելքիս չի հասնում... Ուղղակի Հայերէնի նրբութիւններից է վկայում...

Սիրե՞մ - with a question mark the expression would be Shall I love?

Սիրեմ - without a question mark the expression could be several things.

I go to the market ( every sunday) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (ամէն կիրակի) [for which you have proposed: "Շուկայ կ'գնամ"---- but I'd translate the latter as following: Շուկայ կ'գնամ եթէ ինձ ուղեկցես: ( եթէ հետս գաս) = I will go to the market, if you come with me.]Present continuous: I am going to the market ( now) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (հիմա)For both of the above verbs we use one single tense ( գնում եմ) in the Eastern dialect and they can be ditinguished only within the context.

Lucin jan, I disagree.

Շուկայ կ'գնամ (կ'երդամ) ամէն կիրակի: Specifically means - I go to the market every Sunday (in Eastern and Western Armenian)

Շուկայ եմ գնում: Specifically means - I'm going to the market (in Eastern Armenian)

This is where Western Armenian has a slight "shortcoming" where - I am going and I go are both expressed by կ'երդամ. And that is why in the vernacular of Western Armenian the Turkish "yor" has been adopted and expressed by "gor." All this mess occurred when the Armenian nation moved away from Grabar. I wish some day the classical language gets reinstated.

Lucin Jan, I would like to reiterate once again that some of the Armenian expressions (արտահայտութիւններ) are not sounding right to you because your ears are not used to it. I have the same problem. Having grown up in the United States, not having attened Armenian school, constantly hearing English in my environment at all times, it is very difficult for me not to compare Armenian to English. I have seen Russian Armenians and French Armenians having the same problems, where they compare Russian and French word expressions to Armenian word expressions. There are no language standards to which any language can be compared to.

Some of us diasporans may speak Armenian well, but none of us are thoroughly <<proficient>> in the Armenian language. This simply has to do with exposure.

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Here's a little challenge: "Elle parla, quand on a parlé."
It's also a challenge to elegantly translate it into English without losing information.

How would you translate it ( in Armenian or English)??? Which action would come first? Hers or theirs? I think the latter...
Երբ որ մենք խոսեցինք, նա խոսեց:


P.S: Siamanto, there are some obvious mistakes and inaccuracies within the two sites ( especially Wiki) that you consider as "reference".

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Lucin Jan, perhaps it does not make "perfect sense" to you because your ears are not used to it. However, that does not mean it's not right. I think the error you are making here is comparing Armenian to English. In other words, you are using English as the standard to which Armenian, or any other language, needs to be compared to. This is a serious mistake, the two languages need to be assessed separately.

Համաձայն եմ... Ոչ միայն անգլերէնը այլ ոչ մի ուրիշ լեզու չի կարող որպէս « ստանդարտ» հանդիսանալ մեզ համար բայց կարելի է թարգմանական դիտանկիւնից մոտենալ հարցին...

You can use these Armenian phrases with some effect. However, these thoughts are conveyed a bit differently in Armenian.

Try, for example:

Երբ հասնես (ժամանես) քունի մեչ պիտի լինեմ:

Երբ հասնես (ժամանես) ճաշի ընթացքում պիտի լինեմ:

However, the best way to express thoughts in question is to say:

Երբ հասնես քնած կ'լինեմ:

Երբ հասնես ճաշի նստած կ'լինեմ:

That's what I'm trying to say we just can't add categorically "-elu em" to every single verb, since those verbs and the thoughts they contain, are conveyed differently in Armenian. So I prefer "Երբ հասնես քնած կ'լինեմ" to " երբ հասնես քնելու եմ " or "Երբ հասնես քունի մէջ պիտի լինեմ". Also, this shows pretty much the flexibility of Armenian.

Գնամ: I go???

Which brings to mind: How would Սիրեմ be translated in English?

Shall I love? Սիրե՞մ... Ոչ մի ելք խելքիս չի հասնում... Ուղղակի Հայերէնի նրբութիւններից է վկայում...

Please give me some examples. Thus far I have not seen any viable examples.

In Eastern:

Present simple:

I go to the market ( every sunday) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (ամէն կիրակի) [for which you have proposed: "Շուկայ կ'գնամ"---- but I'd translate the latter as following: Շուկայ կ'գնամ եթէ ինձ ուղեկցես: ( եթէ հետս գաս) = I will go to the market, if you come with me.]

Present continuous:

I am going to the market ( now) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (հիմա)

For both of the above verbs we use one single tense ( գնում եմ) in the Eastern dialect and they can be ditinguished only within the context.

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Grigor Tatevaci (1346-1409 AD)

"Greek is soft, Latin is vigorous, Hunnish is threatening, Hindu is chirping, Persian is eloquent, Armenian is sweet; and an Armenian is able to learn all these languages completely and correctly, but others learn Armenian in a faulty and distorted manner, because their languages are imperfect."

A quote by Charles V taken from an Armenian manual published 1699 AD:

Carlo Quinto (Charles V), who ruled as Emperor since 1519, used to say to his subjects: "I would have wished that a knowledgeable person speak French to his friends, German to his horse, Italian to his wife, Spanish to his God and English to the birds..."

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

What a lowly psychotic ass you are... Don't forget to take you Prozak pill, he/she

Psychobabble...

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

What a lowly psychotic ass you are... Don't forget to take you Prozak pill, he/she

Grigor Tatevaci (1346-1409 AD)

"Greek is soft, Latin is vigorous, Hunnish is threatening, Hindu is chirping, Persian is eloquent, Armenian is sweet; and an Armenian is able to learn all these languages completely and correctly, but others learn Armenian in a faulty and distorted manner, because their languages are imperfect."

A quote by Charles V taken from an Armenian manual published 1699 AD:

Carlo Quinto (Charles V), who ruled as Emperor since 1519, used to say to his subjects: "I would have wished that a knowledgeable person speak French to his friends, German to his horse, Italian to his wife, Spanish to his God and English to the birds..."

LOL I don't know how often it happens; but on many occurrences, I've noticed that, you delete old posts of yours only to repost them immediately??? They seem to happen whenever you start fuming, during a discussion.
The psychologist in me wonders what your naive, disturbed and tormented mind believes is achieving? Just curious.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Pronunciation rules and spelling rules are different; according to your reasoning, it should be "Il estallé" instead of "Il est allé." I'm afraid that it makes no sense.
Regardless of pronunciation, words are separated when spelled; it's a basic rule.

We write ի՞նչ ես անում but the phonetic is [ ինչես անում], so is the pronunciation. It is one of the rules of Armenian language.( I'm not talking about the spelling)

Գրում եմ [Գրումեմ]
Կարդում եմ [Կարդումեմ]
Քնած էի [Քնածէի]

See what I mean?

I understood what you meant last time, and that's why I compared it with a similar case that is the French "Il est allé." I simply reminded that, when writing grammatically, spelling rules are respected, regardless of pronunciation rules.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Պիտի գնամ , in Eastern Armenian = I must/should go, while in Western Armenian Պիտի indicates the future tense, hence Պիտի երթամ = I will go.

According to Armenian Language Lessons: Verbs (Part I), you seem to be on target.

Կգնամ, in Eastern Armenian = 'I will go' (as opposed to գնալու եմ - 'I will be going'.

According to the same reference, the 'Կ' indicates the conditional, not the future. and "գնալու եմ" is the future - keep in mind that there's a confusion with the continuous aspect/form in all tenses, as, strictly speaking, Armenian lacks the continuous form.

However, in Western Armenian, the Կը prefix indicates the present or past tense of the indicative mood, thus Կ'երթամ = 'I go'.

Yes.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Պիտի գնամ = I will go (in Eastern and Western Armenian)
Պետք է գնամ = I must go (in Eastern and Western Armenian)

"Պիտի գնամ" and "Պետք է գնամ" in Western Armenian????????

Please let's not make a mockery of the language here.

With your
1. Apparently poor understanding of the Armenian Grammar
2. Naive views of grammar and language, in general
3. Poor standards
You are certainly making a mockery of the (Armenian) language - and language, in general.

The point I am attempting to make here is to reveal that there is no thought or phrase in English that can't be accurately translated into Armenian. A language without shortcomings, simple as that.

Here's a little challenge: "Elle parla, quand on a parlé."
It's also a challenge to elegantly translate it into English without losing information.

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Please "womble," don't complicate this matter.

I'm certainly no expert, but I think some confusion may be occuring as a result of differing usages between Eastern and Western Armenian. For example:

The prefix "Կ" is used in Eastern and Western Armenian and it has interchangeable meanings in both dialects. However, the "Կ" is used much more often in Western than Eastern Armenian.

Կգնամ, in Eastern Armenian = 'I will go' (as opposed to գնալու եմ - 'I will be going'. However, in Western Armenian, the Կը prefix indicates the present or past tense of the indicative mood, thus Կ'երթամ = 'I go'.

Պիտի գնամ = I will go (in Eastern and Western Armenian)

Պետք է գնամ = I must go (in Eastern and Western Armenian)

This thought can even be expressed by saying:

Կամիմ/կ'կամենամ գնալ = I will/willing to go

Պիտի գնամ , in Eastern Armenian = I must/should go, while in Western Armenian Պիտի indicates the future tense, hence Պիտի երթամ = I will go.

Please let's not make a mockery of the language here.

The point I am attempting to make here is to reveal that there is no thought or phrase in English that can't be accurately translated into Armenian. A language without shortcomings, simple as that. Nevertheless, each language has its own unique nature. As a result, they should not be compared to each other.

The difficulty with the Armenian language is that there are elements of many sub-dialects still actively in use within the two major branches of the Armenian language. As a result of these dialects, there are different ways to conjugate verbs and to phrase sentences and they are considered to be legitimate. This is the fundamental reason why Armenian is so flexible and complicated at the same time. And it is also the reason why if one is not a native speaker of the language it is very difficult to learn it properly.

In other words, due to its ancient age and complex historiography the Armenian language is not as clearly or neatly defined as a modern language such as English. However, as far as expressions are concerned Armenian takes second place to none.