Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

What a lowly psychotic ass you are... Don't forget to take you Prozak pill, he/she

Grigor Tatevaci (1346-1409 AD)

"Greek is soft, Latin is vigorous, Hunnish is threatening, Hindu is chirping, Persian is eloquent, Armenian is sweet; and an Armenian is able to learn all these languages completely and correctly, but others learn Armenian in a faulty and distorted manner, because their languages are imperfect."

A quote by Charles V taken from an Armenian manual published 1699 AD:

Carlo Quinto (Charles V), who ruled as Emperor since 1519, used to say to his subjects: "I would have wished that a knowledgeable person speak French to his friends, German to his horse, Italian to his wife, Spanish to his God and English to the birds..."

LOL I don't know how often it happens; but on many occurrences, I've noticed that, you delete old posts of yours only to repost them immediately??? They seem to happen whenever you start fuming, during a discussion.
The psychologist in me wonders what your naive, disturbed and tormented mind believes is achieving? Just curious.

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

What a lowly psychotic ass you are... Don't forget to take you Prozak pill, he/she

Psychobabble...

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Grigor Tatevaci (1346-1409 AD)

"Greek is soft, Latin is vigorous, Hunnish is threatening, Hindu is chirping, Persian is eloquent, Armenian is sweet; and an Armenian is able to learn all these languages completely and correctly, but others learn Armenian in a faulty and distorted manner, because their languages are imperfect."

A quote by Charles V taken from an Armenian manual published 1699 AD:

Carlo Quinto (Charles V), who ruled as Emperor since 1519, used to say to his subjects: "I would have wished that a knowledgeable person speak French to his friends, German to his horse, Italian to his wife, Spanish to his God and English to the birds..."

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Lucin Jan, perhaps it does not make "perfect sense" to you because your ears are not used to it. However, that does not mean it's not right. I think the error you are making here is comparing Armenian to English. In other words, you are using English as the standard to which Armenian, or any other language, needs to be compared to. This is a serious mistake, the two languages need to be assessed separately.

Համաձայն եմ... Ոչ միայն անգլերէնը այլ ոչ մի ուրիշ լեզու չի կարող որպէս « ստանդարտ» հանդիսանալ մեզ համար բայց կարելի է թարգմանական դիտանկիւնից մոտենալ հարցին...

You can use these Armenian phrases with some effect. However, these thoughts are conveyed a bit differently in Armenian.

Try, for example:

Երբ հասնես (ժամանես) քունի մեչ պիտի լինեմ:

Երբ հասնես (ժամանես) ճաշի ընթացքում պիտի լինեմ:

However, the best way to express thoughts in question is to say:

Երբ հասնես քնած կ'լինեմ:

Երբ հասնես ճաշի նստած կ'լինեմ:

That's what I'm trying to say we just can't add categorically "-elu em" to every single verb, since those verbs and the thoughts they contain, are conveyed differently in Armenian. So I prefer "Երբ հասնես քնած կ'լինեմ" to " երբ հասնես քնելու եմ " or "Երբ հասնես քունի մէջ պիտի լինեմ". Also, this shows pretty much the flexibility of Armenian.

Գնամ: I go???

Which brings to mind: How would Սիրեմ be translated in English?

Shall I love? Սիրե՞մ... Ոչ մի ելք խելքիս չի հասնում... Ուղղակի Հայերէնի նրբութիւններից է վկայում...

Please give me some examples. Thus far I have not seen any viable examples.

In Eastern:

Present simple:

I go to the market ( every sunday) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (ամէն կիրակի) [for which you have proposed: "Շուկայ կ'գնամ"---- but I'd translate the latter as following: Շուկայ կ'գնամ եթէ ինձ ուղեկցես: ( եթէ հետս գաս) = I will go to the market, if you come with me.]

Present continuous:

I am going to the market ( now) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (հիմա)

For both of the above verbs we use one single tense ( գնում եմ) in the Eastern dialect and they can be ditinguished only within the context.

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Here's a little challenge: "Elle parla, quand on a parlé."
It's also a challenge to elegantly translate it into English without losing information.

How would you translate it ( in Armenian or English)??? Which action would come first? Hers or theirs? I think the latter...
Երբ որ մենք խոսեցինք, նա խոսեց:


P.S: Siamanto, there are some obvious mistakes and inaccuracies within the two sites ( especially Wiki) that you consider as "reference".

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Համաձայն եմ... Ոչ միայն անգլերէնը այլ ոչ մի ուրիշ լեզու չի կարող որպէս «ստանդարտ» հանդիսանալ մեզ համար բայց կարելի է թարգմանական դիտանկիւնից մոտենալ հարցին...

Այո, կարելի է թարգմանական դիտանկիւնից մոտենալ հարցին առանց որեվէ «չափանիշ»ներ գործածելով: Յուրաքանչյուր լեզու ունի իր հատկութիւնները: ՈՒստի, հարցը այստեղ պարզապես մտքի կամ եզրի փոխանցումն է:

That's what I'm trying to say we just can't add categorically "-elu em" to every single verb, since those verbs and the thoughts they contain, are conveyed differently in Armenian.

I agree. I just objected you call it a "shortcoming" in the language. I think your initial premise towards the matter (նախադրյալ կեցվածքդ) was flawed.

So I prefer "Երբ հասնես քնած կ'լինեմ" to " երբ հասնես քնելու եմ " or "Երբ հասնես քունի մէջ պիտի լինեմ". Also, this shows pretty much the flexibility of Armenian.

Like I said in my previous post, this is due to the ancient nature of the language. In reality, the Armenian language should have branched-off into dozens of languages during the last several thousand years. However, due to circumstances of the region in question, it did not. Nevertheless, some nationalists do claim that all Indo-European languages did emerge from proto-Armenian several thousand years ago.

Shall I love? Սիրե՞մ... Ոչ մի ելք խելքիս չի հասնում... Ուղղակի Հայերէնի նրբութիւններից է վկայում...

Սիրե՞մ - with a question mark the expression would be Shall I love?

Սիրեմ - without a question mark the expression could be several things.

I go to the market ( every sunday) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (ամէն կիրակի) [for which you have proposed: "Շուկայ կ'գնամ"---- but I'd translate the latter as following: Շուկայ կ'գնամ եթէ ինձ ուղեկցես: ( եթէ հետս գաս) = I will go to the market, if you come with me.]Present continuous: I am going to the market ( now) = Շուկայ եմ գնում (հիմա)For both of the above verbs we use one single tense ( գնում եմ) in the Eastern dialect and they can be ditinguished only within the context.

Lucin jan, I disagree.

Շուկայ կ'գնամ (կ'երդամ) ամէն կիրակի: Specifically means - I go to the market every Sunday (in Eastern and Western Armenian)

Շուկայ եմ գնում: Specifically means - I'm going to the market (in Eastern Armenian)

This is where Western Armenian has a slight "shortcoming" where - I am going and I go are both expressed by կ'երդամ. And that is why in the vernacular of Western Armenian the Turkish "yor" has been adopted and expressed by "gor." All this mess occurred when the Armenian nation moved away from Grabar. I wish some day the classical language gets reinstated.

Lucin Jan, I would like to reiterate once again that some of the Armenian expressions (արտահայտութիւններ) are not sounding right to you because your ears are not used to it. I have the same problem. Having grown up in the United States, not having attened Armenian school, constantly hearing English in my environment at all times, it is very difficult for me not to compare Armenian to English. I have seen Russian Armenians and French Armenians having the same problems, where they compare Russian and French word expressions to Armenian word expressions. There are no language standards to which any language can be compared to.

Some of us diasporans may speak Armenian well, but none of us are thoroughly <<proficient>> in the Armenian language. This simply has to do with exposure.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Here's a little challenge: "Elle parla, quand on a parlé."
It's also a challenge to elegantly translate it into English without losing information

How would you translate it ( in Armenian or English)??? Which action would come first? Hers or theirs? I think the latter...
Երբ որ մենք խոսեցինք, նա խոսեց: .

The French "Elle parla, quand on a parlé" presents more than a difficulty:
1. The "passé simple," as opposed to the "passé composé" describes actions of short duration and that have started and finished in the past (See below.)
To keep it simple, it, more or less, says "she briefly spoke when we( orthey) ("on" is ambiguous) spoke, and we(or they) continued to speak." Translating both "parla" and "a parlé" using the same tense, the information is lost.

Le passé simple est aussi appelé « passé défini ». Ce temps du récit donne une vision globale du procès. Le passé simple, très peu employé à l'oral (on le remplace généralement pas le passé composé), indique une action brève dans un contexte passé. Il exprime un fait situé dans un passé révolu, sans lien avec le moment de l'énonciation.

Valeur de base :
* Valeur temporelle : il situe un procès dans le passé. Hier, à quatorze heures, il neigea.
* Valeur aspectuelle :
o Aspect tensif : le passé simple montre l'action elle-même, du début à la fin.

more details...

Le passé composé : c'est fondamentalement un temps du discours. L'événement passé se prolonge par ses conséquences dans le présent de l'énonciateur.
* Valeur aspectuelle : le passé composé est plus une forme composée du présent qu'un temps du passé.

more details...

2. The second difficulty is to translate the ambiguity of "on" in an elegantly enough manner, as such an ambiguity may add a bit of style and poetry; in fact, the reader may wonder whether the speaker was in the party or just an outside observer - i.e. whether "on" replaces "we" or "they." Of course, more complicated scenarios may be considered.

3. The third difficulty is due to the lack of gender in Armenian. "նա" is ambiguous, and does not translate an ambiguity in the original French sentence.

In other words, " Երբ որ մենք խոսեցինք, նա խոսեց" is a highly lossy translation of "elle parla, quand on a parlé." Do you want to try again?

(By the way, the French imparfait can designate a continuous activity in the past; however, it can't be considered the continuous form of the past. I have noticed, in your other posts, that both you and karoaper, are considering a tense that may designate a continuous action/activity as the continuous form a tense. From a grammatical - i.e. syntactic - point of view, that is incorrect, even when semantically "acceptable." Also, in some cases, there may be semantic differences; for instance, compare "il était en train de manger" and "il mangeait.)"

P.S: Siamanto, there are some obvious mistakes and inaccuracies within the two sites ( especially Wiki) that you consider as "reference".

If that is the case, then, please, share with us
1. A reference grammar - that you consider more reliable
2. The inaccuracies that you have noticed
And we'll compare the reference grammar to the ones mentioned above and if more reliable, we'll considered it as the main reference. Later, we'll consider the "inaccuracies," case by case.
As a rule, when the two sources that I've mentioned disagree, then I would consider Armenian Language Lessons: Verbs (Part I) as correct, unless proven otherwise.

In any case, I'm afraid that stating it without any facts and explanations is of no use.

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

The French "Elle parla, quand on a parlé" presents more than a difficulty:
1. The "passé simple," as opposed to the "passé composé" describes actions of short duration and that have started and finished in the past (See below.)
To keep it simple, it, more or less, says "she briefly spoke when we( orthey) ("on" is ambiguous) spoke, and we(or they) continued to speak." Translating both "parla" and "a parlé" using the same tense, the information is lost.



2. The second difficulty is to translate the ambiguity of "on" in an elegantly enough manner, as such an ambiguity may add a bit of style and poetry; in fact, the reader may wonder whether the speaker was in the party or just an outside observer - i.e. whether "on" replaces "we" or "they." Of course, more complicated scenarios may be considered.

3. The third difficulty is due to the lack of gender in Armenian. "նա" is ambiguous, and does not translate an ambiguity in the original French sentence.

In other words, " Երբ որ մենք խոսեցինք, նա խոսեց" is a highly lossy translation of "elle parla, quand on a parlé." Do you want to try again?

So you suggest that the two actions s'entrecroisent ( interwine?) in the past. I can only think of the following (in Armenian);

Երբ մենք դեռ խոսում էինք, նա (համառոտ) խոսեց:

Or to avoid some repetitions such as the subject and the verb «խոսել» : Դեռ խոսում էինք որ նա (համառոտ) արատյայտվեց:
What do you suggest in Armenian?

(By the way, the French imparfait can designate a continuous activity in the past; however, it can't be considered the continuous form of the past. I have noticed, in your other posts, that both you and karoaper, are considering a tense that may designate a continuous action/activity as the continuous form a tense. From a grammatical - i.e. syntactic - point of view, that is incorrect, even when semantically "acceptable." Also, in some cases, there may be semantic differences; for instance, compare "il était en train de manger" and "il mangeait.)"

I agree. But where? Quote me please. By the way, isn't it the case only in French?

If that is the case, then, please, share with us
1. A reference grammar - that you consider more reliable
2. The inaccuracies that you have noticed
And we'll compare the reference grammar to the ones mentioned above and if more reliable, we'll considered it as the main reference. Later, we'll consider the "inaccuracies," case by case.
As a rule, when the two sources that I've mentioned disagree, then I would consider Armenian Language Lessons: Verbs (Part I) as correct, unless proven otherwise.

In any case, I'm afraid that stating it without any facts and explanations is of no use.

No. Right now, I do not have any sources. However a question: Is Գնացել եմ = I went???

[Kanki]

I live in the US, but speak the Eastern dialect, with Russian words, (basiclly the dialect people speak in Armenia). However, all the Armenians I know in my area have a Western dialect, and when they hear me speak, they comment that i don not know the real Armenian basically saying that I do not know Armenian. Well, they might say it in the states, but when they go to Armenia they will see that the motherland speaks the eastern dialect. Anybody else ever experience this?

ps. take no offense western dialect speakers,

United States,Brazil,Argentina etc, were set up by Europeans! They killed indians!!! These lands are not belong them originally!! You still say westrern Armenia!!! Today there is Turkey!!! Forget it! You are as same as Indians!!

[NightOwl]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

I dont know much on the subject but have heard of different dialects,,Someone I know told me Ken Davitian in Borat speaks the real Armenian language.