The Western Armenian Language Thread

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

Not really

Eastern is more of Russian Hayastanci old Armenian

Yeah, but they speak Eastern Armenian. You guys are both Eastern Armenian, although you have been seperated for quite some time now.

[TomServo]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

Its not a loanword since we have the Armenian equivalent of it. 'Tarm' is the Armenian term.

And the English equivalent of abattoir is slaughterhouse. Yet abattoir is found in English language dictionaries? Why shouldn't teze?

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

Well first off its a foreign word. Second, because only a small portion of Armenians actually use that word (some Armenians whose parents are from Arab countries). And more importantly, we already have a word which means "fresh" in our language (I'm sure there are many synonyms).

If we start putting foreign words for which we already have an equivalent in Armenian dictionaries, then a significant portion of our dictionary would be Turkish words. Chojukh instead of yerekha, zeitun instead of tsitabdugh, chakhmakh instead of gaydzkar. It would also be infused with English words... television instead of heradesil, telephone instead of herakhos, computer instead of hamagarkich, etc...

Do you really want our language to be slowly morphed into the sick sh*t you hear in the average Bolsahye household? Or to be full of Arabic or English words? Մայ չոճուխըս այսօր մարքեթ գնաց եւ հետը բերաւ չախմախ մը եւ մէկ տոպրակ զեյդուն: Թեզէ խնցորները ֆորկաթ ըրաւ, բայց ից օքեյ: Honestly, in the long run it will turn our language into a retarded canvas of international phrases, and all in the name of convenience.

The Armenian language has so many root words and is so sophisticated that you could create new words out of existing Armenian roots. Lets say hypothetically there was no word for "syrup" in Armenian (I use the word "shireh" but that might be Arabic). You could simply create the word մեղրապէս ("like honey"). Made from scratch, has an accurate meaning, and is 100% Armenian. Imagine what a serious linguist could come up with if there was any lack of Armenian terms, which there really isn't. The only words which I would consider loanwords are scientific and medical terms borrowed from Latin and Greek. Other than that, a true loanword in the Armenian language is extremely rare, and I think we should keep it that way.

[Armenian]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

And the English equivalent of abattoir is slaughterhouse. Yet abattoir is found in English language dictionaries? Why shouldn't teze?

I have news for you, Armenian is not English.

What made English a standard for languages? A majority of English words, similar to Turkish and Russia, are not "English" per se. Since English (the language of Germanic peasants from Europe) proved to be a inferior language during the middle ages, vast amounts of Latin, French, Spanish and Greeks words were adopted into the language to embellish it. Today, a vast majority of words in the English language that are comprised of two or more syllables are non-English in origin. This is not a sin, this is simply the nature of their national/cultural development. Armenians, on the other hand, have had a rich/expressive language that has strongly resisted foreign influences. Since Armenia's adoption of Christianity 'very' few foreign words have crept into the Armenian language. Due to the flexibility and richness of the Armenian language we Armenians simply have not had the 'need' to adopt foreign words into our vocabulary. When a new word is needed the Armenian language, unlike English, is fully capable of creating one to fulfill the need. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that common words that have existed in the Armenian language for thousands of years can or should be supplemented by foreign words, especially ones taken from Turkic/Islamic societies.

So, what I'm saying here is don't xxxx with the nature/character/value of our national heritage just because you and your family (similar to a majority of Armenians without an Armenian education - the majority of Armenians) are accustomed to polluting the Armenian language. Instead of expecting your heritage to be lowered to your level why don't you instead try raising to its level...

PS: Relatively speaking, I speak Armenian quite well. However, when it comes to speaking/writing "grakan hayeren" - I admit, I'm very weak. This does not mean, however, that I expect the standards of the Armenian language to be lowered to 'my' level, instead I do my very best to speak (or write if need be) my native language.

This is called having pride in your heritage.

[Federate]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

Ուրիշ հարց մը ունիմ Արեւմտահայախօսներու համար - այս բառերը ի՞նչ կը որոշեն անգլերէնով:

կամ - կանք
կաս - կաք
կայ (there is) - կան (there are)

եւ ալ նմանապէս...

կայի - կայինք
կայիր - կայիք
կար (there was) - կային (there were)

Շնորհակալութիւն ձեր օրինակներու եւ պատասխաներու համար:

Ասոնք քիչ մը դժուար է անգլերէն թարգմանել։ Ամէն նախադասութեան հետ կապ ունի՝

Կամ - կանք is usually used to include oneself in something in the present. Կամ being the singular first person and կանք being the plural first person. Same goes with կաս - կանք which is 2nd person singular and plural respectively. The other four are the same thing except it's in the past tense. Also to note that all of the above except կայ կան կար եւ կային are used mostly in dialogue.

An example of a scenario where you would use կամ.

Person A has a car and is going to drive 3 people home. He says «Լաւ, միայն քեզի եւ երկու ընկերներուդ տուն պիտի հասցնե՞մ։» Then all of a sudden, another guy yells out from the distance, in a rush, «Չէ, ես ալ կամ։». What this guy does is that he points out that in addition to the 3 people, he's gonna come too.

EXCEPTION for կամ՝
Կամ can also mean "or". For example, «Ես կամ Երաժիշտան։» (Me or Yerazhishda). In fact, it's mostly used this way.

Hope I was clear

[womble]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

I have always been taught that the only time to use ն rather than ը as the definite article on a word ending in a consonant is before եմ, ես, է etc. (ie. before any of the auxiliary 'to be' verbs) or before էլ (EA)/ալ (WA). However, I regularly see it used at the end of words ending in consonants before any other word beginning with a vowel. A case in point would be the Njdeh quote that Armenian uses at the end of his posts: <<Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց...>>

So, what I'm asking is this: Is what I was taught correct, or can a ն be used as the definite article on a word ending in a consonant as long as it precedes a word (any word) beginning with a vowel?

[TomServo]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

If we start putting foreign words for which we already have an equivalent in Armenian dictionaries, then a significant portion of our dictionary would be Turkish words. Chojukh instead of yerekha, zeitun instead of tsitabdugh, chakhmakh instead of gaydzkar. It would also be infused with English words... television instead of heradesil, telephone instead of herakhos, computer instead of hamagarkich, etc...

They should have been put in long ago. Aren't Sayat-Nova's poems and songs a melange (oops) of Armenian, Persian, Georgian, and Turkish? What about this Abovian poem?

Do you really want our language to be slowly morphed into the sick sh*t you hear in the average Bolsahye household? Or to be full of Arabic or English words? Մայ չոճուխըս այսօր մարքեթ գնաց եւ հետը բերաւ չախմախ մը եւ մէկ տոպրակ զեյդուն: Թեզէ խնցորները ֆորկաթ ըրաւ, բայց ից օքեյ: Honestly, in the long run it will turn our language into a retarded canvas of international phrases, and all in the name of convenience.

You can go ahead and speak academic Armenian -- but not many others are going to join you. Not even people in Armenia.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

They should have been put in long ago. Aren't Sayat-Nova's poems and songs a melange (oops) of Armenian, Persian, Georgian, and Turkish? What about this Abovian poem?

You said it yourself-- its a combination of Armenian, Persian, Georgian and Turkish-- not exclusively Armenian. Also, poetry is a freestyle artform, its not like he was writing an essay or making a speech, or speaking to somebody for that matter, so its not representative of anything. So I don't know why we should incorporate these words into the official dictionary, just because one Armenian guy spoke those four languages, or just because Abovian felt like using some other words (which he was conscious of, btw). You can use foreign words when you speak-- as long as you know which words are Armenian and which are not. But your idea of incorporating it in the dictionary will make future generations think they are speaking Armenian, when they really are not.

Using the English model for Armenian doesn't make sense. Armenian put it well when he said they incorporated all these foreign words in English because it was a very basic and bland language-- there is no need to do so with Armenian, and we shouldn't corrupt the official language just because some people are too lazy (or ashamed, or not able, etc etc) to learn it properly.

You can go ahead and speak academic Armenian -- but not many others are going to join you. Not even people in Armenia.

Which is more of a reason why I wouldn't want to change the official language to accelerate this epidemic of ignorance. I don't speak "academic Armenian", I speak Armenian, as do many others. People like me are just conscious of the foreign words we use. If you want to delude yourself into thinking you're speaking Armenian by using foreign words, then go ahead-- don't change the dictionary and ruin it for the rest of us.

[yerazhishda]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

Ասոնք քիչ մը դժուար է անգլերէն թարգմանել։ Ամէն նախադասութեան հետ կապ ունի՝

Կամ - կանք is usually used to include oneself in something in the present. Կամ being the singular first person and կանք being the plural first person. Same goes with կաս - կանք which is 2nd person singular and plural respectively. The other four are the same thing except it's in the past tense. Also to note that all of the above except կայ կան կար եւ կային are used mostly in dialogue.

An example of a scenario where you would use կամ.

Person A has a car and is going to drive 3 people home. He says «Լաւ, միայն քեզի եւ երկու ընկերներուդ տուն պիտի հասցնե՞մ։» Then all of a sudden, another guy yells out from the distance, in a rush, «Չէ, ես ալ կամ։». What this guy does is that he points out that in addition to the 3 people, he's gonna come too.

EXCEPTION for կամ՝
Կամ can also mean "or". For example, «Ես կամ Երաժիշտան։» (Me or Yerazhishda). In fact, it's mostly used this way.

Thanks for the explanation.

Could the guy have also said «Ես ալ հոս եմ:» instead of «ես ալ կամ:» Do those two statements have a similar meaning?

Hope I was clear

Very clear, enger. You have been a valuable resource for me and I am sure for other learners of Westen Armenian. I highly appreciate your responses as you seem to be educated in these types of grammatical/colloquial matters.

[TomServo]

Re: The Western Armenian Language Thread

Using the English model for Armenian doesn't make sense. Armenian put it well when he said they incorporated all these foreign words in English because it was a very basic and bland language-- there is no need to do so with Armenian, and we shouldn't corrupt the official language just because some people are too lazy (or ashamed, or not able, etc etc) to learn it properly.

There is no shame in using/incorporating "foreign" words in Armenian. How foreign is zeytun to Armenians anymore? Zeytun is a de facto Armenian word. I don't think Armenians are going to stop using "zeytun" until some official Armenian linguistic organization states that it shouldn't be used, and Yerevan renames Kanaker-Zeytun district into Kanaker-Tsitabdough.

Which is more of a reason why I wouldn't want to change the official language to accelerate this epidemic of ignorance. I don't speak "academic Armenian", I speak Armenian, as do many others. People like me are just conscious of the foreign words we use.

People like you, and many others, are in a minority.

If you want to delude yourself into thinking you're speaking Armenian by using foreign words, then go ahead-- don't change the dictionary and ruin it for the rest of us.

Since you are a historian and Armenologist(?), I'm sure you've heard of Hrachia Ajarian. He was the one who compiled all the Armenian dialects, both historical and surviving, and they numbered over 100, maybe even 200. How many of them were made up of a "purely" Armenian vocabulary?