Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

[hipeter924]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

A dandy answer, well I'm satisfied... there is no race. Lets all go home boys.

p.s. that 1% difference in DNA could mean the difference between looking like a chimpanzee or not, but alas, there is no race

I said less than 1% meaning it is low. The difference is related to where one lives (the environment). For example someone in a Scandinavian climate may have greater chances to develop blue eyes. Or someone in Africa may have a greater chance to develop dark skin.

Plus Anthropologists study all cultures. So I think they know what they are talking about. There are Armenian anthropologists too.

[Armenian]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

So do you see similarities between the Jewish infestation in the Bolshevik movement and that of the Young Turks? With that said, can't the Turks shift the blame easily on the Jews for their atrocities??

Lucin jan, to answer your initial question:

Of course there are similarities between the two. With that said, the degree of 'their' involvement was much-much more in Bolshevism. The face of Bolshevism was that of a Jew. That simple. The same cannot be said of the Young Turks. While the core of Young Turks were of Jewish decent (Turkish born Jews) and they received some support from European Jews (primarily German, English and Polish Jews), the movement in question was unmistakably a 'Turkish' nationalist movement and the majority of its adherents were ethnic Turks. Moreover, Kurds were also a major factor in our genocide. Therefore, one can't simply place the blame entirely on Jews, although a certain segment of their society was complicit in the Armenian Genocide and to this day remains antagonistic.

Bolshevism on the other hand was a sociopolitical movement hatched in the West and predominated by Jews. It was a movement that was nurtured and later transplanted into the then vulnerable Russian Empire by special interests in the West. Unlike Pan-Turkism of the Young Turks in the Ottoman Empire, Bolshevism was never meant to become part of the Russian Empire's fabric, it was meant to destroy the Romanov Aristocracy and the Orthodox Church. And while Pan-Turkism benefited Turks, Bolshevism decimated Christian Slavs...

So, draw your conclusions. However, I believe that there are three main avenues of approach with Turks.

One, the Jewish factor in the Armenian Genocide:

Turks can save some face by placing a certain portion of the blame at the feet of the Young Turks that were of Jewish decent... This will make an eventual rapprochement easier somewhat than talking all the blame upon themselves. However, as I explained above, they have to take most of the responsibility themselves.

Two, the Kurdish problem in Turkey:

When sensible politicians in Turkey realize that they will sooner-or-later loose a certain portion of eastern Anatolia to the Kurds they may also realize that developing better ties with Armenia might be in their longterm interests. If I was a Turkish politician and I saw that Turkey was on the verge of loosing lands to Kurds, I would much rather return historic Armenian lands currently under Turkish occupation back to Armenia instead. Thus, the secret is being able to exploit/manipulate the Kurdish problem in Turkey in our favor. How we, under our current state of affairs, would be able to manage this is another story...

Three, our relations with Russia:

The closer Armenia is to Russia, and believe me we are not close enough, the harder will Ankara listen to our demands. The closer Armenia is to Russia, the probability of Armenia getting invaded by Turkey or Azerbaijan is virtually non-existent. These are two very crucial geopolitical factors in our national development in the Caucasus.

In final analysis, I don't care for a simple apology from Ankara. They can keep their worthless apology to themselves. I also don't care to discuss/debate/argue the details of the Armenian Genocide with them either. Armenians that are simply seeking an apology from Turks (look at the idiots of the newly merged Genocide forum here) are more dangerous to our nation than pan-Turks. I say this because the pursuit of Genocide recognition helps keep a significant portion of our large diaspora, Armenian. And trust me when I say this: As sad as it may be, the biggest factor in a diasporan Armenian's identity is the Armenian Genocide, a distant second being Christianity. Needless to say, the Armenian Church and Christianity on the whole in the West is in a steady decline. Once we loose the pursuit of genocide recognition as well, without gaining anything tangible in return from Turks, we will also loose a significant portion of the Armenian diaspora, especially the one in the West. Had it not been for certain geopolitical factors holding them back from doing so, Turks would have utterly decimated the Armenian diaspora simply by formally apologizing. While our western lands remain occupied and a vulnerable Armenia remains dependent upon others for survival, indefinitely maintaining the pursuit of Genocide recognition is actually in our nation's interests.

Nevertheless, what I want is the return of our historic lands, at least a significant portion of them. I want the lands in question not only for the sentimental/cultural values it presents, but mainly for their strategic value. For as long as Armenia remains tiny and landlocked in the Caucasus it will remain politically vulnerable and economically insignificant.

[hipeter924]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

Nevertheless, what I want is the return of our historic lands, at least a significant portion of them. I want the lands in question not only for the sentimental/cultural values it presents, but mainly for their strategic value. For as long as Armenia remains tiny and landlocked in the Caucasus it will remain politically vulnerable and economically insignificant.

Sounds nice. But Turks and Azeri's won't give them back without a war. Is that what you are suggesting?

[Lucin]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

In final analysis, I don't care for a simple apology from Ankara. They can keep their worthless apology to themselves. I also don't care to discuss/debate/argue the details of the Armenian Genocide with them either. Armenians that are simply seeking an apology from Turks (look at the idiots of the newly merged Genocide forum here) are more dangerous to our nation than pan-Turks...

Yes, that's why I like you, lol. A lot of Armenians are very naïve and way too laid back...

[jgk3]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

I also personally don't care for a recognition of the AG by Turkey. Let them recognize it after the Armenian nation has been restored to its healthy boundaries.

[Anoush]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

Nevertheless, what I want is the return of our historic lands, at least a significant portion of them. I want the lands in question not only for the sentimental/cultural values it presents, but mainly for their strategic value. For as long as Armenia remains tiny and landlocked in the Caucasus it will remain politically vulnerable and economically insignificant.

Yes Armenian for you are a true Armenian, that's what we want and that's what Tashnagtsoutyoun wants as well. I believe Sevri Tashnakir's Wilsonian Armenia's lands would do just that. Lands that already belongs to us and legally is bound to us by Sevri Tashnakir. Which would be great because they go as high above as to the Black Sea. Something that President Wilson has foreseen then to draw the map so that we'll be able to be in contact with Europe through the Black Sea and we wouldn't be landlocked any more. It would be ideal for us when that happends.

[Anoush]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

You know Armenian jan, when the Diasporan Armenians and also Tashnagtsoutyoun all these years wanted Turkey to recognize the Genocide, it's not their apology we wanted but right after their recognition of the Genocide it was and it is about the matter of our lands. We will undoubtedly ask them to give back our lands. They can keep their bloody apology, it is the matter of our lands that is in question. After all wasn't that the primary reason why they committed the Genocide? To get rid of us so that they could claim our wealth and our lands. We wanted then and we want now our anscestral's lands back.

[gmd]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

Can someone clarify what is meant by Armenian race? I do not question culture/nation/religion just the race part. Considering our long history and its often tragic consequences, wouldn't any distinct racial characteristics have been diluted?

I ask this because in my own experience I have met Armenians in the diaspora who did not look like Hyeastancis. I have never had trouble identifying a Hyastanci even in a crowd by appearance alone.

[Armenian]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

Can someone clarify what is meant by Armenian race? I do not question culture/nation/religion just the race part. Considering our long history and its often tragic consequences, wouldn't any distinct racial characteristics have been diluted? I ask this because in my own experience I have met Armenians in the diaspora who did not look like Hyeastancis. I have never had trouble identifying a Hyastanci even in a crowd by appearance alone.

There are three main races on earth - white (Europoid/Caucasian), Black (African) and Mongoloid (Asian). Each racial group has its subgroups/branches. The White/Caucasian race for example has Alpine, Nordic and Mediterranean subgroups. Moreover, Middle Eastern people are largely a mix of African and Caucasian racial types. There are many other mixes which account for the wide variations of looks we find in various nations. If you want race and nationality to make sense to you examine the differences between different dog breeds and how they are bred. There is no such thing as an "Armenian race," just like there is no such thing as a Russian race, a German race or a Chinese race. Like all other peoples, we Armenians are a nation that belong within a certain racial mix. Racially, Armenians are a part of a particular mix that has developed for thousands of years in Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Moreover, the reason why you can easily pick out "Hayastantsi" Armenians in a crowd is primarily due to their mannerism and style/taste of clothing.

[gmd]

Re: Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

There are three main races on earth - white (Europoid/Caucasian), Black (African) and Mongoloid (Asian). Each racial group has its subgroups/branches. The White/Caucasian race for example has Alpine, Nordic and Mediterranean subgroups. Moreover, Middle Eastern people are largely a mix of African and Caucasian racial types. There are many other mixes which account for the wide variations of looks we find in various nations. If you want race and nationality to make sense to you examine the differences between different dog breeds and how they are bred. There is no such thing as an "Armenian race," just like there is no such thing as a Russian race, a German race or a Chinese race. Like all other peoples, we Armenians are a nation that belong within a certain racial mix. Racially, Armenians are a part of a particular mix that has developed for thousands of years in Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Moreover, the reason why you can easily pick out "Hayastantsi" Armenians in a crowd is primarily due to their mannerism and style/taste of clothing.

I agree with the distinctions of race based on white, black, asian. I questioned the use of Armenian race in the title of the thread.

As for picking out Hyeastancis I disagree. Even ones who have lived in the US for a long time and seem to blend in within a crowd I can figure out where they are from. This also extends to at least some Persian Armenians. I have been out with a group of Armenians from work and three of us were Eastern and I believe had certain similar features that were not shared with the Western Armenians. I am not implying we are not all Armenians, simply pointing out that our historic geography/isolation may have led to some unique characteristics within the various tribal/regional groups. As for Hyeastan, I think it acted as a melting pot for the post Genocide survivors.