Discussion on Armenia's nation/culture/civilization/race

[crusader1492]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

take no offense, i mean no hostility.

[Azad]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

SoyElTurco I agree on most of your comments. Let me reverse the question to you now. Can any minority be accepted to preserve its identity in the region without turkic or Islamic expansionism? If Armenia and Armenians where left alone we wouldn't have the "unpleasant" characteristics you are describing. We respect Islam but have no intention to accept it in any shape or form same goes with turkic culture ... we would respect it where it belongs and not on our homeland. How hard is that to comprehend? We did find peace and unity in our culture without Islam or turkic backwardness (as we view it).

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian "uniquenes." How unique are you people really? Your dress is the same as every other people's in the caucus. You all have long ponytails and colorful aprons covering your white dresses. All of you in the caucus dress the same and dance the same. The rhythmns and melodies of your music are the same, with only sight or no variations in your instruments. The differences in your languages have created you into different people, into what otherwise would have been the same shared history amongst all the descendents of those people who live in that region today. Instead of unified history that interfaced with the world around it, its was fragemented history for each and every people that was localized regionally and didn't project anywhere. There was a time you had an international presence (under Tigran) but that didnt last long. All of you in the caucus are now the same people that cling to the different histories of you different languages thereby perpetuating yourselves as different people. I went to school with a half-azeri half-armenian girl. How many intermarriages have there been between the caucus peoples? The Chechens converted themselves to Islam to prevent themselve from assimiliating into the Russians when their women began to marry their Orthodox Russian brothers.

First off you mongolian seljuk turks were never in the picture before the 13th century. You came in the picture (caucuses) after the 13th century. Your anscestors killed, attacked and worked themselves through with your turkish "yataghans" attacking, killing, stealing and through their barbaric ways got the best of us as we were unfortunately not united at those times and we have lost our kingdom through wars between the Romans, the Greeks and the Iranians. Otherwise we should have pushed you back to mongolia where you asiatic barbaric turks migrated from.

The Georgians were there and the Armenians. There was no Turks or Azerbaidjanis in the picture. Our nationality goes back to millenia, where we had not only a language but a vast civilizaiton, demigods temples, buildings. Whoever came to the caucases later only mimicked and stole from our culture. And DON'T even try to tell me stupidity that we are mixed with other nations. I wouldn't even go there if I were you. When your DNA today is 70% Greek DNA. Your mixed up Turkish nation who stole our little boys and made "yenicheries" out of them who later fought against us, thanks to the Turkish belligerent mentalities and behaviours, then during and much before the first Genocide during Abdul Hamid II form 1895-1896 who annihilated 300,000 Armenians during before and until 1923; all the barbaric turkish government and their people did was stole our most beautiful women, either steal and get hold of them without their will; simply kidnap them either make her theirs or rape then kill them. The same killing continued with men, young men and women. Your turkish nation or un-nation is made up of Greeks, Armenians, Cherkez, Kurds, etc. etc. etc. Don't mix us up with yourselves. We have been through centuries and WE ARE a nation, a real one (it is called ARMENIANS)!

You're all the same people. The only reason why there are differences is because everyone is clinging to their language. I read somewhere once "If you want to destroy a people, destroy their languag." Your ancestors are not only from Ancient Armenians, but Azeris, Georgians, Ossetians, Abkhazians hell, even Iranians and Greeks. Now your cultures have converged and the only thing anyone in that region has to claim or assert a separate identity is their language. A language divorced from the culture and beliefs of its ancient speakers.

This formula applies for almost all people, including Turks. We are nothing special. Unique, yes, just like you're unique. Us Turks are composites of the middle easterner peoples and original christian anatolians (including armenians). We do not have any semblance or much cultural resemblance to the people of Altaics - the original Turks. We too are distanced from our roots. Our cultures more resemble that of the northern midlle east (syria and some of iraq) and the levant. We have very similiar customs with the Greeks and the Persians. What happened to the Greeks with their togas?

You see, culture constantly evolves. Being Turkish is important to me in that it is an experience through a different culture and language, its not any reason for me to think I am inferior or superior to any group of people, including Armenians. Nationalism was this blind satanic religion that tore you Armenians apart from us. Did we ever commit crimes against you before the empire started to deteriorate when the outside forces were working hard to ignite self-realization amongst the many minorites of the Ottoman Empire?

Did you know before the nationalist explosion amongst Greeks, both Turkish and Greek Cypriots always thought of themselves as one unified Cypriot culture? Did you know to this day there are both Greek and Turkish Cypriots that identify themselves Cypriots and still accept their differences in ethinicity and relgion? Nationalism tore up the multi-ethnic state of the Ottman Empire.

You're turning what you are not just into and ideology (there is nothing wrong with that, except it could be ridiculous) but you're turning it into a dangerous ideology like supremists. You're claim of Armenians is so high, but if they were as tenacious and resilient as you assert, the silent genocide of assimiliation would never have happened; your people knowing that they have a great culture would have prompted them to militantly and dogmatically protect it - only the xxxs have been able to do that in history - instead of becoming like those degenerate rabiz you all are horrified with. There was I time I used to love my culture like you, but I realized its infatuation and not love. I can only direct my love at something that can guide me and preserve me. Has "Armenianism" been able to guide the rabiz of Glenoaks? I live in a Russian neighborhood in Brooklyn, and there are a substantial amount of other soviet bloc immigrants, including armenians. MAny i have met are nice. But the other many, off the boat, have earned Armenians a reputation of banditry. These unfortunate ones, from mother Armenia, are they defunct? Why couldn't Armenianism prompt them to live up to the definition of being Armenian? They were living up to the definition of being a regular human, thats for certain.

We are unique in the sense that we are strong, we are real and because you furks annihilated and committed the first Genocide of the 20th century, now we have become more united, more nationalistic and more stronger than ever. If we have become ultra nationalistic it was your mongolian turkish invasion and the barbaric acts of killings and turtorings that made us to be more nationalistic. That part of it was due to your anscestors' barbaric joyful killings and afterwards getting hold of our wealths, buildings, monasteries and finally our lands after the annihilation and deportation.

I won't discuss anymore of my thoughts of the heinous crime on a forum - not publicly - public discussion will hijack any effort to make meaningful way into that subject.

take no offense, i mean no hostility.

Of course you can't discuss about your past governments' heinous crimes of the 20th century because it is factual and you are a coward and you don't want to admit it. Like the rest of today's turkish government who's into denial.

ADMIN EDIT: Sorry Anoush, I had to edit your post a little bit to take out some of the insults. Please try to refrain from insults and this is a reminder to all sides.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This is a lengthy response but please read it all before you reply.

Armenian "uniquenes." How unique are you people really? Your dress is the same as every other people's in the caucus. You all have long ponytails and colorful aprons covering your white dresses. All of you in the caucus dress the same and dance the same. The rhythmns and melodies of your music are the same, with only sight or no variations in your instruments. The differences in your languages have created you into different people, into what otherwise would have been the same shared history amongst all the descendents of those people who live in that region today. Instead of unified history that interfaced with the world around it, its was fragemented history for each and every people that was localized regionally and didn't project anywhere. There was a time you had an international presence (under Tigran) but that didnt last long. All of you in the caucus are now the same people that cling to the different histories of you different languages thereby perpetuating yourselves as different people. I went to school with a half-azeri half-armenian girl. How many intermarriages have there been between the caucus peoples? The Chechens converted themselves to Islam to prevent themselve from assimiliating into the Russians when their women began to marry their Orthodox Russian brothers.

You're all the same people. The only reason why there are differences is because everyone is clinging to their language. I read somewhere once "If you want to destroy a people, destroy their languag." Your ancestors are not only from Ancient Armenians, but Azeris, Georgians, Ossetians, Abkhazians hell, even Iranians and Greeks. Now your cultures have converged and the only thing anyone in that region has to claim or assert a separate identity is their language. A language divorced from the culture and beliefs of its ancient speakers.

This formula applies for almost all people, including Turks. We are nothing special. Unique, yes, just like you're unique. Us Turks are composites of the middle easterner peoples and original christian anatolians (including armenians). We do not have any semblance or much cultural resemblance to the people of Altaics - the original Turks. We too are distanced from our roots. Our cultures more resemble that of the northern midlle east (syria and some of iraq) and the levant. We have very similiar customs with the Greeks and the Persians. What happened to the Greeks with their togas?

This is just a pile of horserasdish that has gone sour. Stating "we are all the same peoples" proves everything, yet proves nothing. That's tantamount to saying to the whole world, "you are all the same people" or "we are all humans", or when the human genome was mapped, that supposedly race was nothing more than "skin deep." However, humans are pack animals and Turks most of all should know this.

Categorization is purely an arbitrary concept. Based on the framework within which you are working, anything and everything can be "the same." However, these sort of generalized airbrush attempts at trying to create some sort of holistic oneness amongst all people ignores the histories of each of the individual peoples that occupy the given regions and in this case, have done so for millenia. You confuse the idea of similarities and differences and use the initial to disprove and disclaim the latter absolutely, whereas differences are always in degrees, not in kinds. In fact, as this studyindicates, Armenians are a unique people, down to their genotype. And language is merely a reflection of a people. There are people who are culture creating, and then there are people who are culture bearing. Civilizations, contrary to what many believe, are organic in nature, and not ethereal and abstract.

You see, culture constantly evolves. Being Turkish is important to me in that it is an experience through a different culture and language, its not any reason for me to think I am inferior or superior to any group of people, including Armenians. Nationalism was this blind satanic religion that tore you Armenians apart from us. Did we ever commit crimes against you before the empire started to deteriorate when the outside forces were working hard to ignite self-realization amongst the many minorites of the Ottoman Empire?

Did you know before the nationalist explosion amongst Greeks, both Turkish and Greek Cypriots always thought of themselves as one unified Cypriot culture? Did you know to this day there are both Greek and Turkish Cypriots that identify themselves Cypriots and still accept their differences in ethinicity and relgion? Nationalism tore up the multi-ethnic state of the Ottman Empire.

You're turning what you are not just into and ideology (there is nothing wrong with that, except it could be ridiculous) but you're turning it into a dangerous ideology like supremists. You're claim of Armenians is so high, but if they were as tenacious and resilient as you assert, the silent genocide of assimiliation would never have happened; your people knowing that they have a great culture would have prompted them to militantly and dogmatically protect it - only the xxxs have been able to do that in history - instead of becoming like those degenerate rabiz you all are horrified with. There was I time I used to love my culture like you, but I realized its infatuation and not love. I can only direct my love at something that can guide me and preserve me. Has "Armenianism" been able to guide the rabiz of Glenoaks? I live in a Russian neighborhood in Brooklyn, and there are a substantial amount of other soviet bloc immigrants, including armenians. MAny i have met are nice. But the other many, off the boat, have earned Armenians a reputation of banditry. These unfortunate ones, from mother Armenia, are they defunct? Why couldn't Armenianism prompt them to live up to the definition of being Armenian? They were living up to the definition of being a regular human, thats for certain.

I won't discuss anymore of my thoughts of the heinous crime on a forum - not publicly - public discussion will hijack any effort to make meaningful way into that subject.

take no offense, i mean no hostility.

If you have encountered Armenians that have spoken about Armenian superiority and/or Turkish inferiority, I apologize on all of our behalf. That is certainly not the image nor vibe those of my stripe would like to exude.

You are also correct in that culture evolves. But, be that as it may, culture is also unique at the same time. There is an interplay of something that is both constant yet transformational. I believe it was Rousseau that said the more things change the more they stay the same. Even though culture does incorporate, influences and is influenced and undergoes ripples and twists, the core of that culture remains, unless the original people who created that culture disappear because of mixing, absorption, low birth-rates, etc.

For any given culture to have come out, there had to have been a certain people to create that culture, since culture is only an outward expression of a peoples consciousness. There are embedded behaviors relevant to people that can not be changed. Armenians are a distinct people that have created their own culture as well as absorbed others, same as any other people. If you mean "the same" in that regard, then your point holds true. However, I suspect you seek to invalidate uniqueness. This is true for any people, since no one lives in absolute isolation. Therefore, interactions are the rule and cultural borrowing and spread is therefore prevalent.

There is an onion theory of culture proposed Sir Richard Winstedt. Specifically it is the "onion theory of Malay culture". The idea behind this is that if you peel off all the successive layers of cultural influence over the years, you will reach the core culture of that people. This theory was also used by John Whitmore, and he applied this to Vietnam and its history. This can be applied to any people at any given time and we can always come across to the core culture of a given people. As John Whitmore stated,

"Thus, for Malaya, off goes Islam, then the Hindu-Buddhism, before we reach the indigenous nature of Malay. This however assumes an unchanging process of cultural accretion, such that original cultural elements are untransformed as they move across the centuries. Instead, we need to consider, in a linguistic sense, constant change and transformation taking place as the culture develops, whether or not it is influenced from the outside. Yet, while this temporal change is taking place, a continuity still exists that allows us to recognize the culture as that culture, despite its changes. The question then is, what kind of transformation has taken place, and to what degree."

The fact that different races of peoples have produced different cultures is evident in history and civilization. To quote John Ruskin, "There is however, a marked distinction between the imaginations of the Western and Eastern races, even when both are left free; the Western, or Gothic, delighting most in the representation of facts, and the Eastern in the harmony of colours and forms." When we look at architecture of the orient, they are far more similar to each other (China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc.), than they are to the occident (France, England, Germany, etc.) or the Near East or Mediterranean or the Caucasus. Even the characters of the writing script show marked distinctions. These cultural markers have come from the different imaginations of different racial groups.

Society always exists in relation to each other. All peoples in history have been influenced and have influenced. There is nothing wrong with being influenced by another culture or people. However, there is a difference between growth that is from within, and growth that is from without. The Western world is busy advocating multiculturalism and diversity. However, diversity is contradictory because it promotes mixing and thus diversity ultimately destroys the very thing it supposedly celebrates - diversity and uniqueness. It replaces peoples natural affinities for creativity, ingenuity and borrowing, with complete cultural suicide and forced integration and adoption of different value systems.

Thus, when we talk about Armenian uniqueness often on these forums, and Armenians intermarrying and why we place such a strong emphasis on this idea of uniqueness, we are talking about this. We think this for two reasons: (1) because of the genocide we are even more sensitive to the idea of disappearing, and (2) our sense of uniqueness and time-testedness has made us attuned to the idea of cultural evolution vs cultural destruction. Hence, when those like me frown upon Armenians adopting other cultures or marrying non-Armenians, they often defend it by stating "well they can be Armenian, learn the language, and the food, etc."

However, by encouraging other races to "be Armenian" is not as simple as you make it out to be like typing on a forum. Those non-Armenian people belonged to some other culture before they "became Armenian." Thus it is natural for them to bring elements of their genes and their culture into the "Armenian culture" and gene pool and already you have the slow and steady process of dilution and change. Change can either be good or bad, and change comes either from within or without. It is important that we do not follow false sources of change. That is so because we recognize that culture is a reflection of a people.

For example, People A and People B are completely unique and start off at the same time. Both People A and People B create different languages, customs, art forms, dances, foods, etc. Throughout their thousands of years of history, People A and People B interacted and mixed with different peoples and cultures to the point where they have many similar things, but at the same time, different components that make them unique amongst each other. People A and People B interacted with Empire C at one time because Empire C had an empire that encompassed all the lands of People A and B. They then mixed with Empire D and E. While People A and B started off with distinct language and culture, they were both influenced by Empire C, D and E. Your argument would say that because they were ruled by all those Empires they are the same. However, this ignores the creative potential, embedded behaviors and temperaments of People A and B and presumes them to be nothing more than robots. However, while both People A and B were occupied by the same empires they each, individually accepted and took and borrowed different things and incorporated it within their culture via their own perceptions, judgments and creative abilities. In other words, just like no two apple trees are alike, neither are two cultures or peoples. Just because both of the apple trees were influenced by the sun and the rain, it does not mean they will produce the same apples, in the same shapes, same taste or texture or type.

Final point: Just because there are scum among Armenians that give us a bad name, has absolutely no bearing or reference on the broader and more global points that are in discussion here.

[UrMistake]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Did u know that in Bizantium it were a period that it had only 2 cultures armenian and greek,that were Bizantium all about in most of its time leading by 2 nations,then armenia were part of a strong mekanism not a subject.
Also in Cyprus no 1 consider that turks belong in the island.
2)Armenians are older people in caucasus,we had the culture developed and most of the neighboring nations were subjects and then the others came so its like more like copy and paste in music and other sruff,face the facts and truths.
3)Armenia is small geographically so villagers are leaving in the capital and they have there own whays.

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Thanks Anonymous for your educational point of views. It was very well written and absorbed.

[Pazooki]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenian "uniquenes." How unique are you people really? Your dress is the same as every other people's in the caucus. You all have long ponytails and colorful aprons covering your white dresses. All of you in the caucus dress the same and dance the same. The rhythmns and melodies of your music are the same, with only sight or no variations in your instruments. The differences in your languages have created you into different people, into what otherwise would have been the same shared history amongst all the descendents of those people who live in that region today. Instead of unified history that interfaced with the world around it, its was fragemented history for each and every people that was localized regionally and didn't project anywhere. There was a time you had an international presence (under Tigran) but that didnt last long. All of you in the caucus are now the same people that cling to the different histories of you different languages thereby perpetuating yourselves as different people. I went to school with a half-azeri half-armenian girl. How many intermarriages have there been between the caucus peoples? The Chechens converted themselves to Islam to prevent themselve from assimiliating into the Russians when their women began to marry their Orthodox Russian brothers.

You're all the same people. The only reason why there are differences is because everyone is clinging to their language. I read somewhere once "If you want to destroy a people, destroy their languag." Your ancestors are not only from Ancient Armenians, but Azeris, Georgians, Ossetians, Abkhazians hell, even Iranians and Greeks. Now your cultures have converged and the only thing anyone in that region has to claim or assert a separate identity is their language. A language divorced from the culture and beliefs of its ancient speakers.

This formula applies for almost all people, including Turks. We are nothing special. Unique, yes, just like you're unique. Us Turks are composites of the middle easterner peoples and original christian anatolians (including armenians). We do not have any semblance or much cultural resemblance to the people of Altaics - the original Turks. We too are distanced from our roots. Our cultures more resemble that of the northern midlle east (syria and some of iraq) and the levant. We have very similiar customs with the Greeks and the Persians. What happened to the Greeks with their togas?

You see, culture constantly evolves. Being Turkish is important to me in that it is an experience through a different culture and language, its not any reason for me to think I am inferior or superior to any group of people, including Armenians. Nationalism was this blind satanic religion that tore you Armenians apart from us. Did we ever commit crimes against you before the empire started to deteriorate when the outside forces were working hard to ignite self-realization amongst the many minorites of the Ottoman Empire?

Did you know before the nationalist explosion amongst Greeks, both Turkish and Greek Cypriots always thought of themselves as one unified Cypriot culture? Did you know to this day there are both Greek and Turkish Cypriots that identify themselves Cypriots and still accept their differences in ethinicity and relgion? Nationalism tore up the multi-ethnic state of the Ottman Empire.

You're turning what you are not just into and ideology (there is nothing wrong with that, except it could be ridiculous) but you're turning it into a dangerous ideology like supremists. You're claim of Armenians is so high, but if they were as tenacious and resilient as you assert, the silent genocide of assimiliation would never have happened; your people knowing that they have a great culture would have prompted them to militantly and dogmatically protect it - only the xxxs have been able to do that in history - instead of becoming like those degenerate rabiz you all are horrified with. There was I time I used to love my culture like you, but I realized its infatuation and not love. I can only direct my love at something that can guide me and preserve me. Has "Armenianism" been able to guide the rabiz of Glenoaks? I live in a Russian neighborhood in Brooklyn, and there are a substantial amount of other soviet bloc immigrants, including armenians. MAny i have met are nice. But the other many, off the boat, have earned Armenians a reputation of banditry. These unfortunate ones, from mother Armenia, are they defunct? Why couldn't Armenianism prompt them to live up to the definition of being Armenian? They were living up to the definition of being a regular human, thats for certain.

I won't discuss anymore of my thoughts of the heinous crime on a forum - not publicly - public discussion will hijack any effort to make meaningful way into that subject.

take no offense, i mean no hostility.

Don't give me that "Oh your country and mine is the same we have mixed blood" My ass.

Armenia was the second country on Earth to be made if not the 1st. So get it through your thick head. We will never let our country dissappear. We can be the smallest country on Earth. Even after that we'll be proud of our rich and noble blood.

[UrMistake]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Anoush i dont understand why u like the long posts that it explains further the obvious,u like to educate turks?

Its like dictionary for dumb people.

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Anoush i dont understand why u like the long posts that it explains further the obvious,u like to educate turks?

Its like dictionary for dumb people.

Dear UrMistake; Its not simply educating him, Ill be damned if I let him get away with murder; or I should say the obvious!!!!

Thats my prorogative as a human being, in this case as an Armenian human being!!!!

[Palavra]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenia was the second country on Earth to be made if not the 1st. So get it through your thick head. We will never let our country dissappear. We can be the smallest country on Earth. Even after that we'll be proud of our rich and noble blood.

Haha so our noble(Turkish) blood comes from there..I do not think, we can find noble blood at central asia. Anyway, which blood is more noble? Greek blood or armenian blood?

Ill be damned if I let him get away with murder

Tell me, who is murderer. I will inform Turkish police about him. It would be better to say who is murdered too..