Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Lucin]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

What generalization and what did you understand?

Kattie, you did not seem to make any exceptions in your intital post (?)

That's what I implied in:
"In societies where Armenians are directly exposed to other cultures, the traditional concept of the Armenian couple becomes vulnerable because insufficient to guarantee the longevity of the couple. I don't shy away from responsibilities, but a sense of responsibilities is not always enough to guarantee the longevity of a relationship, partners should not take each other for granted and that's where charm comes in. I don't have in mind particular charms, and it's more about charming."

What is called charm and the lack of it makes also a couple fall into banalities and platitudes once the initial lust, the fire and the passion of the very beginning fades away, I believe this is also what makes couples not notice often times each other's presence after a while. I'm not married but this is just what I have observed in many couples.

I kept wondering who will ask this obvious but simple question.
I can't clearly define charm for the same reasons than one can't clearly define love or anything so essential to human life, both are multifaceted and maybe too "natural/primitive" to be fully understood. But I'll do my best.
First of all, I will remind what I've already said: "I don't have in mind particular charms, and it's more about charming." That is to say that what matters is the natural inclination that we have to charm, how it's done is to some degree culturally dependent.

Natural inclination? Do you think 'charming' or having the 'charm' within is inherent to every single woman's nature? Do all of us possess the 'same' level of charm? And that some are able to express it while others not?

In cooking, the ingredients do not make the dish, the cook does. The same applies to charming. The ingredients can be as simple as a smile, an earring, the passion in our words, the way one tilts the head, kindness, intelligence, the expression of the eyes, the stories one invents, our integrity, our love, giving, our dreams etc. etc.

Nice... I'm glad that you did not include physical 'attractiveness' in it. I would also like to add that a woman who is comfortable in her skin, who has some degree of self-acceptance and sometimes tends to lack inhibition can emanate that 'charm' from herself...

Second of all, I would distinguish it from what can be considered as a responsibility or compliance to a certain code/etiquette. For instance, little girls want to put on pretty dresses because they want to be a princess and charm, older women put on pretty dresses because it is proper. The dream is gone.
Another example is when Armenians put a pretty dress because it's "shnorkov", the purpose is not to charm but to comply. Of course, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Third of all, I would distinguish it from acting i.e. forcing oneself to do what people consider as charming, so it has to be naturally part of you. I have in mind women who force themselves to act in certain way just or wear a certain type of clothes/underwear just because they believe that their partner would enjoy it. Of course, if the woman genuinely enjoys how the clothes/underwear feel/look on her body then it's not acting, and she will wear them differently, with style.

So would you deem anything that is done willingly, with no sense of compliance as 'charming'?

My father was very authoritarian, he demanded his children to speak only Armenian at home, he forbid my mother to speak one turkish word. I learnt French at school. We were not allowed to talk French at home.

I do not see how the willingness to remain true and close to your roots be considered as "old-minded" or "authoritarian"? I know what... it would have been much more comforatble for you to speak French at home...

You can consider this right or wrong it is up to you but the fact is men need sex more often then women, it is in our biology.

This is not true. Most women absolutely love sex! It is in our biology!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Kanada, theoretically I know how to change a dirty diaper...............but...

I hear you loud and clear

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

That logic doesn't apply here.You can't get married then send someone in your place to honeymoon!

Really? I didn't know a ceremony and a "legal" piece of paper followed by an all expense paid vacation constituted into "knowledge"

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

jan, I'm very relaxed, just making a point.

And I completely understand you ! Sorry if I said something wrong. I just had an emotional moment there. I hate how people around the world throw our girls around whenever they xxxxing feel like it (I'm not talking about anyone here). It pisses me off. It's simply disrespecting.

I don't think I agree with you here

I'd love to know why ! I'm not saying you can't understand anything...I'm just saying there's a lot you can't experience if you don't live with your own people. I've lived in the Diaspora for most of my life and I can feel the difference almost immediately between living out there and here in our nation itself. It's very different. Plus, I don't sit at home all day. I'm always in contact with all kinds of people everyday, especially our people, and to gain the experience I'm talking about, you must live in Armenia at least for a year. I don't mean to disrespect anyone by saying this. It is the truth though and I don't see why anyone should disagree with me.

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I can have the knowledge to build a house yet get someone else to do it without even touching a tool. Knowledge is power. Managers tell people how to do things without ever having to do it themselves.

That logic doesn't apply here.You can't get married then send someone in your place to honeymoon!

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Woa, woa, you misunderstood me completely yekhpayr. Completely. Relax.

jan, I'm very relaxed, just making a point.

I wasn't saying that Armenians living outside are "fallen" and I'm in the holy land, lol. Come on bro, your misunderstanding me. I was getting pissed at the people who make really big judgement calls ... not necessarily you ... when they haven't even come here or have met very few Armenians. I consider all of you my people ... my family. Everything I do, all I know, all my experience ... is for all of you and my nation. Don't misunderstand me.

lav.

What I meant was that Haykakan said that he's visited Armenia a few times and I said that that isn't enough to understand our people. Might sound confusing but like I said, you need to become a part of our people to understand them properly. This doesn't mean your not an Armenian or I'm better then you. I'd rather die then say something like that. Please don't misunderstand me.

I don't think I agree with you here, but that's lifes rich tapestry.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

This seems to have degenerated into a slug-match between Saco & Haykakan. Shame.
I'm not taking sides at all but Saco, you run the risk of alienating many people here with your "More Armenian Than You" attitude.

Woa, woa, you misunderstood me completely yekhpayr. Completely. Relax.

Why do you disrespect Diasporans so ?
My gorgeous wife is a Yerevansti princess and we went through the traditional courtship ritual for a long time before we married and even so I was petrified when I asked her father for her hand even though I knew he would say yes. Our daughter knows the same values and will live by them, not because we as her parents say she must, but because she sees the worth in them.
Will we insist she marries Armenian? No, we'll insist she marries true to her values, chances are it will be an Armenian boy.
Saco, please I don't want to hear anymore about your being in Armenia is better than others..............you don't know where everyone lives or where they're from or why, it loses your audience.

I wasn't saying that Armenians living outside are "fallen" and I'm in the holy land, lol. Come on bro, your misunderstanding me. I was getting pissed at the people who make really big judgement calls ... not necessarily you ... when they haven't even come here or have met very few Armenians. I consider all of you my people ... my family. Everything I do, all I know, all my experience ... is for all of you and my nation. Don't misunderstand me.

What I meant was that Haykakan said that he's visited Armenia a few times and I said that that isn't enough to understand our people. Might sound confusing but like I said, you need to become a part of our people to understand them properly. This doesn't mean your not an Armenian or I'm better then you. I'd rather die then say something like that. Please don't misunderstand me.

And this "slug match" started when Haykakan started throwing my age around, trying to make it seem like I'm just this kid who doesn't know better!

I don't know where you got the idea that Saco was "More Armenian Than You". He was speaking on behalf of all Armenians around the world. Personally, I agree with everything he has said and I've been in the "diaspora" my entire life. The funny thing about culture, the majority of the time, the woman's culture is dominant unless the man's side of the family is directly involved with the children. That IS why it's called the mother's tongue. I think this is why you see more Armenian women marrying into other cultures and Armenian men running around aimlessly like chickens with their heads cut off. Saco was referring to everyone's opinion on Armenia when most of the diaspora go there to "vacation" and "party" and don't really get a taste of what life is like in Armenia.

I would just like to add that, like I said before, it's very important that our girls have good fathers. Why? Because they'll guide their daughters in the right direction. Right now though, a lot of Armenian men here in Armenia don't even have the right to call themselves Armenians (trust me, you'd throw them out of here if you had the chance) so that's why I think we should talk about them more then the women. If women are handicapped in some way, it has a connection more to the parents then our traditions.

Here's an example. In my street, there are many families. All of them abide to the Armenian laws and live as Armenians ... but some of them are great Armenians and raise proper children who I'm proud to call my friends ... and other's raise completely spoiled, arrogant, and goghakan children. Now, who do we blame? Our traditions or the parents? Some families don't teach a THING about our Armenian traditions (let alone history or anything serious) to their kids and naturally, they start acting wrongly and/or seem hanicapped. So how can we blame it on tradition, in this case ... and many others? It's the parents not our traditions. I can bring you lots of examples. I hope you got my point, guys.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't girls who are handicapped in some way ... I'm just not putting emphasis the size of Mt. Ararat on them. I'm not starting to think our majority of women are that way because only a small minority is.

I see the problem stemming from somewhere else and not our traditions. It's our traditions that hav ebrought us this far and I don't think we should be dissing them even in a subtle way. I know so many families that live by tradition and they are simply wonderful and live properly, without many problems ... let alone "handicaps", lol. So that proves it isn't our traditions but rather something else ........

Saco and kanadahye definetly do not understand this issue.

You haven't even replied to my posts in TWO THREADS so before you start dissing my now, read them, my friend. I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything else but the one thing I hate the most is when people, it doesn't matter who, start to ignore what the other person is saying ... and then, if that wasn't enough, calling him this or that.

They percieve the discussion of a legitimate social problem which is not even uniquly armenian as somehow dissing armenian values and armenian women even when it is a armenian women who started the thread.

An Armenian women who doesn't seem to come back and continue the discussion. So many people, not just me, gave really serious questions and neither you or the Armenian women you mentioned said anything. And although you say this problem isn't uniqely Armenian ... the way you guys talk places a special emphasis on our girls and our "traditional upbringing" so how it not uniqely Armenian. We're talking about Armenian "traditional upbringing" and so far, no one mentioned a single tradition that they didn't like. So don't be talking about imaturity Haykakan. It's not the place or time for that.

There is definetly immeturity here and it is not all that unnatural (they are both young).

Here we go again with the age flick! You haven't answered anything I've said in any way and your calling me young?

The simple fact is you won't get what we are talking about untill you have experienced it yourself and this means having a long and serious relationship with a women if you are a man.

You don't have to be married for ten years to know what it's like. I've seen many, many Armenian families and I feel our problems don't stem from tradition. Because you have been in a relationship doesn't mean you can call us young. I never called YOU young although many of your views were so I'd appreciate it if you placed more emphasis on what I'm saying then how old I am because it doesn't matter one bit.

Being in armenia does not give saco the right to simply dimiss this issue

When did I "dismiss" it? I'm just clarifying the issue so we'll know what we're dealing with and talking about. I never said NO Armenian women is handicapped. What's immature is how you don't reply to anything I say and then get the right to call me young.

These two guys are just too young and inexperienced to comprehend this subject and i wish they would just let those who have something constuctive to add to participate instead ruining this very insightfull and usefull thread.

So far, you haven't said much that has been "constructive". I've given you a lot to think about and/or work out or consider in my posts and you just ignored everything. That's what's immature.

I don't think I said anything that you didn't imply. Maybe I'm too good at understanding people and reading between the lines. When you have a close knit family like I do, you learn to understand a lot of things without experiencing them.

I agree. You ESPECIALLY gain a lot of experience when you meet and live with lots of different families and I have. So stop with the "I have more experience then you do" flick. It just shows how proud you are...not how smart, Haykakan. I have nothing against you, yekhpayr.

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I can have the knowledge to build a house yet get someone else to do it without even touching a tool. Knowledge is power. Managers tell people how to do things without ever having to do it themselves.

Kanada, theoretically I know how to change a dirty diaper...............but...

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Its true that , understanding and knowing are separated by doing.

I can have the knowledge to build a house yet get someone else to do it without even touching a tool. Knowledge is power. Managers tell people how to do things without ever having to do it themselves.

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Its true that , understanding and knowing are separated by doing.