Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

[gegev]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

How are women being men and vice-versa? I presume you don't mean that they are changing their sex chromosomes, so please explain what you mean.

You probably didn't hear about homosexuals.

And how prey-tell can creatures living in the natural world, ever be going "against nature"? It's a logical impossibility. The fact that it occurs at all disproves your claim that it's against nature. "Res ipsa loquitur."

For instance abortion ... goes against nature.

Some creatures couldn't reproduce themselves and are extinguished, as the red book says.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

You probably didn't hear about homosexuals.

Homosexuals wouldn't be gay if the men became women prior to engaging in romantic relations with men and vice-versa. Try again.

For instance abortion ... goes against nature.

Some creatures couldn't reproduce themselves and are extinguished, as the red book says.

I don't think you're following the reasoning. We live in the natural world and are natural beings. Nothing we do is unnatural because by virtue of the very fact that we are doing it, it is natural. So, this "goes against nature" doesn't hold.
If some creatures can't reproduce and are thus extinguished, then isn't it pointless to worry about homosexuality? If it is "unnatural" and unsustainable as you wish to claim, then it will take care of itself, no?

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

The whole goal of Feminism has been the removal of women from traditional gender roles, which has been viewed as "oppressive" and "unequal". I think this is pretty obvious. Of course, over time that Feminism has developed into something worse and into something dangerous for conservative cultures that still revolve around the family unit. If you have a movement that advocates this for women, how can you expect your traditional family unit to be maintained?

I know also Feminism attempts to create this equality between men and women, but the reality is men and women are fundamentally different, in their biology, psychology, etc. So men and women can never be "equal", though of course both are equal citizens in the eyes of the law.

You will notice that in many women in the West a certain innocence has been lost in women, modesty in both behaviour and dress, the dedication to family and family values. Compare such Western women to let's say Muslim women and the difference is rather clear. Of course not all Western women are like this, but a great deal.

This is not say such women should be educated, given opportunity in workforce, etc.

The goal has not been to change the gender roles or to pretend that men and women are identical. We aren't, but just because we do have some differences doesn't mean we should be treated differently. There are lots of feminists who disagree as to whether we should have equal outcomes or equal opportunity. This is a debate I've been caught up in in a different circle recently. So, I really don't know how it is that you can claim unequivocally that "the goal of feminism is _________" when there's not agreement among self-identified feminists.

What you fail to see is that the reason why men and women must be treated as equal citizens and given equal job opportunity TODAY is precisely because of the feminists who fought for that. We didn't used to enjoy even that much. Yet, you still present feminism as a negative. Those very beliefs which you stated are feminist ideals. Don't let people who hold extreme positions build strawmen for you. What you have undoubtedly seen and find so disagreeable are almost certainly strawmen of "the feminist position" (of itself absurd because there isn't one position).

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Gegev and Mos, why don't you two just be honest with everyone and convert to Islam? You are obviously ideologically already 99% of the way there - just take that final little step and join the ranks of the turbaned fanatics who share your world view.

[Haykakan]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Gegev and Moz, why don't you two just be honest with everyone and convert to Islam? You are obviously ideologically already 99% of the way there - just take that final little step, join the ranks of the turbaned fanatics, and (if it is at all possible) go live in a hole in Afghanistan with the rest of your kind.

You make a good point there. I do believe that part of the backwardsness many armenians have regarding women stems from the fact that we have lived with or next to islamic people for so long.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

Gegev and Mos, why don't you two just be honest with everyone and convert to Islam? You are obviously ideologically already 99% of the way there - just take that final little step and join the ranks of the turbaned fanatics who share your world view.

You make a good point there. I do believe that part of the backwardsness many armenians have regarding women stems from the fact that we have lived with or next to islamic people for so long.

Oh good, so it's not just me that sees this similarity between the ideals that Mos and Gegev seem to be promoting and the very reasons why my parents fled Islamic Iran years and years ago? It's rather ironic; they left everything they knew and had to have me grow up with the same opportunities and freedoms that these two think are undermining Armenian society/culture. I wonder what they would think about Mos's and Gegev's opinions. Afterall, Mos at the very least, thinks I should defer to my parents' judgments and decisions in all cases.

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

The goal has not been to change the gender roles or to pretend that men and women are identical. We aren't, but just because we do have some differences doesn't mean we should be treated differently. There are lots of feminists who disagree as to whether we should have equal outcomes or equal opportunity. This is a debate I've been caught up in in a different circle recently. So, I really don't know how it is that you can claim unequivocally that "the goal of feminism is _________" when there's not agreement among self-identified feminists.

What you fail to see is that the reason why men and women must be treated as equal citizens and given equal job opportunity TODAY is precisely because of the feminists who fought for that. We didn't used to enjoy even that much. Yet, you still present feminism as a negative. Those very beliefs which you stated are feminist ideals. Don't let people who hold extreme positions build strawmen for you. What you have undoubtedly seen and find so disagreeable are almost certainly strawmen of "the feminist position" (of itself absurd because there isn't one position).

No movement in the world is united wholly. That being said, I'm talking about the general effects of Feminism that has affected the West. Yes, the initial goals of Feminism was rather political (equal suffrage, political rights, etc) but the movement also began to transform culture, this notion of "empowering women" began to destroy the family unit, it emphasised and encouraged women to be more independent outside the family unit. So with decades of such idealistic influence, the mainstream societies in the West lost the importance of the family unit, women became more aggressive, and men became more oppressed. For example, It became a norm for women to disengage from their parents at an early age, be involved in numerous romantic relationships without marrying, put off having a family and being in a stable marriage. This mindset has increased more and more, and this mindset cannot be allowed in Armenia and Armenian society, because by destroying our family values, by having corrupt women, your nation same-way falters. Tell me how is the Dutch nation doing? Their multicultural and ultraliberal values and ideals have turned that society into a cesspool of immorality and the Dutch identity is something of the past.

There's a modesty and innocence that has to be sustained in our society. A woman should stay a woman, in her behaviour and goals, a man should stay a man. The importance of modesty in both behaviour and dress should also be held high, same with the importance of staying and being connected with your family till you create your own family. A woman's dedication to her children, husband, and family is a rather holy dedication and of course in return such a woman should be respected for what she does for her own family. Take a look at all the dysfunctional families, the numbers of divorces, and bad marriages that take place in the West. That's another consequence of your society being transformed by such values.

[Mos]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

You make a good point there. I do believe that part of the backwardsness many armenians have regarding women stems from the fact that we have lived with or next to islamic people for so long.

I really don't see how it's backwardness. I see the objectification of women, the tolerance of women that act like prostitutes, the degradation of women as much more backward than encouraging modesty, family values, and traditional gender roles in which women are respected in a more moral manner.

[jgk3]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

What I'm more curious about is how all these alleged "prostitute" women will turn out when they feel like settling down and having a family...

I mean, seriously, do you think that desire comes from traditional Armenian culture and is under attack in the west? If that were the case, people wouldn't be getting married at all.

The reasons divorces happen is because both the man and the women probably did not figure each other, nor themselves, before they tied the knot. Maybe you prefer a society where people don't need to figure themselves out, and let fear of being socially ostracized or punished figure it out for them.

[Siggie]

Re: Who is the Armenian girl that our guys strive to marry.

What I'm more curious about is how all these alleged "prostitute" women will turn out when they feel like settling down and having a family...

I mean, seriously, do you think that desire comes from traditional Armenian culture and is under attack in the west? If that were the case, people wouldn't be getting married at all.

The reasons divorces happen is because both the man and the women probably did not figure each other, nor themselves, before they tied the knot. Maybe you prefer a society where people don't need to figure themselves out, and let fear of being socially ostracized or punished figure it out for them.

Jeff, there's nothing to figure out when you're not required or encouraged to think at all. Their utopia involves automatons who are programmed to act a certain way and there is no deviation.

I think we need to cease trying to understand their position in terms of logic and evidence because that's not the basis for the argument. The basis for their argument is ignorance, insecurity, intolerance, and hate.