How does everyone feel about Israel?

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

No problem discussing Israel but the topic always gets out of hand and the comments get flippant almost immediately.

Armenians get so caught up in diatribes against Israel/J e w s that they forget who the real perpetrators of the Armenian, Assyrian, Pontic, and Dersim genocide were. They also forget that some of biggest proponents of Armenian issues and scholars are as well. Yes, there were many J e ws in the CUP and many donmeh still involved with our enemies, but lets not forget there are donmeh Armenians doing the same against Armenia/Armenians even now as well as during the Genocide. Armenians have had good relations with Arabs and Persians and I hope this continues but let's face it, the die has been cast, the Muslim world is going to turn on us completely.

We are right to question Israel motives and policy, but lets not forget, Armenia is close to Ahmidednejad and his mullahs and I'm sure not appreciated by Israel. This is reality. They are as skeptical of us as we are of them although that is slowly changing as they are coming to see the true face of Turkey.

I feel for the Palestinians and I think they should have their own state (an equitable one, not the one stipulated by the Israeli authorities) but I also believe the Israelis have the right to defend themselves. Where have the Arabs states been with regards to helping the Palestinians?

I do not agree with most Israeli policy but Armenians fail to see that for better or worse, the Israelis have their own interests that often times fall on the opposite tract as Armenians. Most J e w s I know, are pro-Armenian and also think Israel is often wrong vis vis the Palestinians but calling for the obliteration of Israel or denigrating as J e w s will only make them defensive. They are gradually seeing who their real enemies are in Turkey we must nurture the split. Already, Israel is getting closer to Russia, Greece and Bulgaria; this is a good thing for Armenians in the long run.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

This is what you said "Bad things were done by both the Christian and the Muslim factions, it was a deadly civil war." so both of us are discussing factions as well but regardless, the Palestinians (the militant groups as the armed wing) were one of the factions in the Lebanese Civil War and the ones who suffered the most during it. The specific event we are talking about was Sabra and Shatila where Israel had a direct role and besides the Damour massacre of Christians, all the massacring was one-sided (Christians on Muslims). I don't know why you bring up Iran (possibly just cause you're throwing all Muslims in one bag or possibly because they support Hezbollah in 2010) but the Iranians had no part in the civil war. The Syrians were never involved in a massacre either themselves shooting or a la Israel where they let armed men into refugee camps to shoot the place up. The Syrian role at first ironically was against the Palestinian militants. Afterwards, they fought the Lebanese Forces Christian militia and the bastards decided to stay and occupy Lebanon for another 15 years. Screw Syria too, for that reason.

The Muslim factions were supported militarily by Iranian and Syrian elements. Analogous to how the Christians were supported by Israel and some Western powers. Using the argument of atrocities committed by Christian factions to somehow implicate Israel as terrorists and at the same time totally ignoring the militant Palestinian groups that target civilians is very far-fetched.

You have to familiarise yourself with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare It's not completely true that they "hide" in densely populated areas on purpose, rather they have families and Israel often chooses to target them when they are most vulnerable such as inside their own homes, during political gatherings (they are politicians too often) or when they leave a mosque because often they have problems finding them because these same militants are hiding in safe areas when they are conducting operations. And in those settings, civilians will be present and they will die when you launch a missile at them. And of course, when this happens it's a no-brainer the victim's side will use it for propaganda. It's a war and civilian deaths are always used to bolster support. Don't forget also that Gaza happens to be one of the most densely populated regions in the world so honestly, Israel is fighting a losing war when it comes to civilians. Both sides engage in propaganda and sadly, it sounds like you catch Palestinian propaganda quickly but fail to detect the propaganda when it comes from Israel. Finally, we can't forget that Palestinian factions are all nationalists and it would make little sense for them to sacrifice civilians like that but this is just a minor point.

No, they are not hiding only because they want to be near their families. It's a specific attempt to hid in the most populated of places in order to maximize civilian death when Israeli army tries to root them out. And Israel has a right to root these groups out as they conduct terrorist attacks in Israel, and like any country caring about its security it's going to take strict measures. The bottom line is those Palestinian terrorist groups instead of fighting the Israeli army, go out and specifically target civilians which is really disgusting. In Israel's case, it's civilians getting caught in the cross-fire, they aren't going specifically targeting civilians like the Palestinians.

You missed the point man. Mein Kampf is not comparable to David Duke. Mein Kampf, a book, had an entire intent to spread an ideology. David Duke has opinions on certain matters external of his other views, meaning they are exclusive from his opinions on Aryans or whatever he believes in. He might be a neo-Nazi for example and believe in I dunno what but if he is critical of the Israeli government and cites alleged crimes, then there's nothing wrong with posting and discussing this. But this is beyond the point, the problem here is you labelling another user by a term which is not justified and can be considered as an insult. No user has admitted to being a neo-Nazi or whatever label you used on them so cease calling them such. And I couldn't give a sh!t about David Duke.

But he's critical of Israel to serve his anti-Semitic purposes, nothing else. This whole "Zionist" hysteria he puts out in order to bolster his own bigoted view of everybody who is not white and protestant and living in the deep south. When a user brings up a video by Dukes as a legitimate source, than I deeply question where that user gets his information from and his intelligence in seeking out Dukes' video.

Again, if I quote Hitler and say he's right (Dukes shares very similar views to him) people would call be a neo-Nazi, so let's not apply double standards here...

Well, during the Lebanese Civil War, when Armenians chose to be neutral, the Christians bombed the Armenian quarters and we suffered plenty. I know people who were kidnapped or are maimed today due to them. In Armenia's case, the Byzantine empire was pretty brutal against us and is half the reason why Armenia was divided into two, something that affects us to this day. But the reason perhaps why Christians haven't done much to us since the fall of the Byzantines is because Christian countries fell to Muslim countries and they haven't been in power for awhile Religion does not mean much in politics. Russia helped us simply because the Ottoman Empire was threat, not because of our religion even if that might've been an extra motivation. By the way, xxxs are equally bad as Muslims when it comes to non-xxxs or "infidels". Our priests get spat on in Jerusalem by xxxs on a daily basis

Oh so Muslims have always treated us well? That's what you're trying to say? This Muslim-Armenian alliance is truly ridiculous, we've been oppressed and targeted often by Muslim powers because of our religion. After all in the Q'uran it says that the infidel (that's us) deserves to be killed. Point out to Byzantines all you want but fact remains fact that over our history the largest source of our oppression has been by Muslim powers. During Cilicia we were allied with the Christian Crusades, and it was a true golden age and cultural renaissance for us during those times of independence.

Not all of the Islamic Organisation. And their motivation is based on politics.

oh come'on, have you not heard about all the resolutions they adopted condeming armenia. The biggest supporters of Azerbaijan were Muslim fundamentalists and Pakistan. Can you not accept that yes Muslim terrorist groups were supporting Azerbaijan and killed Armenian soldiers??

Lol no. I'm showing you that you unjustly blame everything on Muslims when everyone else has been equally bad if in a position of power.

Oh right, like how you say Israel is at fault for everything in the palestinian-israeli conflict....

Mos, where did you read the Hamidian Massacres were not important? We were talking about the AG a page back but you quoted stuff from the Hamidian massacres. They are different events, with different motivations. One was perhaps motivated by relgion (but mostly sparked by taxes) but the other (the actual genocide) was motivated by Turan wet dreams. Scholars confirm this. Whether they converted our churches into mosques is just the side effect after the genocide. And converting to Islam back then meant converting yourself into a Turk or Kurd. Religion was strictly identified with ethnicities. That's why we use the terms "Turkified" and "Kurdified" when speaking of our lost Armenians.

No religion played a key emotional role for the Turks and Kurds in killing us, the Greeks, and the Assyrians, do not ignore that. Many of these soldiers were simple farmer folks who used Islam to justify the killings and exterminate us from our ancestral homeland. Why else did they target all Christian minorities? The notion of the Armenia-Islam alliance is just truly ridiculous, and believing in such false promises is what has led turbulent times in our history like the genocide. We have to look at reality and not be pro-Muslim like some people here, but pro-Armenian, and be suspicious of everybody else except strong friends.

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The Muslim factions were supported militarily by Iranian and Syrian elements. Analogous to how the Christians were supported by Israel and some Western powers. Using the argument of atrocities committed by Christian factions to somehow implicate Israel as terrorists and at the same time totally ignoring the militant Palestinian groups that target civilians is very far-fetched.




No, they are not hiding only because they want to be near their families. It's a specific attempt to hid in the most populated of places in order to maximize civilian death when Israeli army tries to root them out. And Israel has a right to root these groups out as they conduct terrorist attacks in Israel, and like any country caring about its security it's going to take strict measures. The bottom line is those Palestinian terrorist groups instead of fighting the Israeli army, go out and specifically target civilians which is really disgusting. In Israel's case, it's civilians getting caught in the cross-fire, they aren't going specifically targeting civilians like the Palestinians.




But he's critical of Israel to serve his anti-Semitic purposes, nothing else. This whole "Zionist" hysteria he puts out in order to bolster his own bigoted view of everybody who is not white and protestant and living in the deep south. When a user brings up a video by Dukes as a legitimate source, than I deeply question where that user gets his information from and his intelligence in seeking out Dukes' video.

Again, if I quote Hitler and say he's right (Dukes shares very similar views to him) people would call be a neo-Nazi, so let's not apply double standards here...



Oh so Muslims have always treated us well? That's what you're trying to say? This Muslim-Armenian alliance is truly ridiculous, we've been oppressed and targeted often by Muslim powers because of our religion. After all in the Q'uran it says that the infidel (that's us) deserves to be killed. Point out to Byzantines all you want but fact remains fact that over our history the largest source of our oppression has been by Muslim powers. During Cilicia we were allied with the Christian Crusades, and it was a true golden age and cultural renaissance for us during those times of independence.




oh come'on, have you not heard about all the resolutions they adopted condeming armenia. The biggest supporters of Azerbaijan were Muslim fundamentalists and Pakistan. Can you not accept that yes Muslim terrorist groups were supporting Azerbaijan and killed Armenian soldiers??



Oh right, like how you say Israel is at fault for everything in the palestinian-israeli conflict....



No religion played a key emotional role for the Turks and Kurds in killing us, the Greeks, and the Assyrians, do not ignore that. Many of these soldiers were simple farmer folks who used Islam to justify the killings and exterminate us from our ancestral homeland. Why else did they target all Christian minorities? The notion of the Armenia-Islam alliance is just truly ridiculous, and believing in such false promises is what has led turbulent times in our history like the genocide. We have to look at reality and not be pro-Muslim like some people here, but pro-Armenian, and be suspicious of everybody else except strong friends.

Here, Here. Armenia/Armenians should have magnanimous attitude towards Israelis, Arabs, and Persians. We should engage in commerce, diplomacy, etc but should stay out of their conflicts. It is a lose-lose for us and some how we will only end up scapegoated.

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Of course not and neither have I ever said that I support Duke.

Duke is no longer a member of the KKK, your points are invalid.

Because he is now dedicated to an extremely racist organization in Russia that targets Armenians as well.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Here, Here. Armenia/Armenians should have magnanimous attitude towards Israelis, Arabs, and Persians. We should engage in commerce, diplomacy, etc but should stay out of their conflicts. It is a lose-lose for us and some how we will only end up scapegoated.

I'm not saying we shouldn't engage in commerce or diplomacy, but declaring that they are our brothers or eternal friends is truly ridiculous, especially given our history. We should keep our distance in our relations with them, and not get to cozy.

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

I agree. I'm not saying we should get cozy, only that we should be magnanimous to all sides and stay out of the conflict. Both sides will screw us and we must not be pawns. Armenians have enough on their plate with Turkey and Azerbaijan. Things are starting to play out in our favor.

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The Muslim factions were supported militarily by Iranian and Syrian elements. Analogous to how the Christians were supported by Israel and some Western powers. Using the argument of atrocities committed by Christian factions to somehow implicate Israel as terrorists and at the same time totally ignoring the militant Palestinian groups that target civilians is very far-fetched.

Wrong. We can't even just call them "Muslim" factions because the Muslims were divided during the war and even now, between Sunni, Shi'a and in between political parties too. And they fought each other too. So yet again you generalise all Muslims and throw them in one pot. I even recall earlier you called Iran a part of the Arab world (???), albeit unintentionally it shows a bias you have. And it's not analogous nor is it that simple. The Western powers and Iran are non-factors on the battlefield. The Iranians never played a direct role in the war and were never considered belligerents (unlike Israel and Syria). They were busy with their own war against Iraq. The only support Iran had was moral support in the form of the 1979 Revolution and possible financial support to Shi'a groups (which later came to the founding of Hezbollah in 1987, 3 years before the end of the civil war). And before you say it, no, Hezbollah didn't massacre Christians. I have provided you with 4 counts of widescale massacres by Christian militant groups with one where Israel was directly involved and I explained to you how they were involved in it. The sole widescale massacre done by Palestinians was at Damour, which was sadly a response to the Karantina massacre which is no justification before you claim that I am justifying a massacre, just providing context. BTW I do not like the label terrorists and prefer not to label any side as such. Ironically, what you claim I ignore actually applies to what you are doing and that is putting the terrorist label on one side and ignoring the other. And the whole point of this was to show you that Israel is directly responsible for Sabra and Shatila and you can't wipe their hands clean. We also need to establish that the Christian militias were by far the bloodier side of the conflict as evidenced by their massacres. Not only that but they targeted Armenians we well. So much for Christian brotherhood.

No, they are not hiding only because they want to be near their families. It's a specific attempt to hid in the most populated of places in order to maximize civilian death when Israeli army tries to root them out. And Israel has a right to root these groups out as they conduct terrorist attacks in Israel, and like any country caring about its security it's going to take strict measures. The bottom line is those Palestinian terrorist groups instead of fighting the Israeli army, go out and specifically target civilians which is really disgusting. In Israel's case, it's civilians getting caught in the cross-fire, they aren't going specifically targeting civilians like the Palestinians.

These claims that they purposely hide in populated places is just another claim without any evidence, typical of propaganda. I have explained to you why Israel often kills civilians as collateral damage. Whenever Israel has the chance, it will target its targets with no civilian deaths. But because the Palestinian fighters are always in hiding and away from Israeli drones, they are often only seen during public appearances and Israel takes advantage and blows them up and anyone in the vicinity dies with them. The same applies to them being at home with their families. That's pretty much how the founder of Hamas died a few years ago. But I agree, Palestinians specifically targeting civilians is wrong. But it's also wrong for you to claim that Israel is being unfairly victimised, it deserves all the criticism it gets.

But he's critical of Israel to serve his anti-Semitic purposes, nothing else. This whole "Zionist" hysteria he puts out in order to bolster his own bigoted view of everybody who is not white and protestant and living in the deep south. When a user brings up a video by Dukes as a legitimate source, than I deeply question where that user gets his information from and his intelligence in seeking out Dukes' video.

Again, if I quote Hitler and say he's right (Dukes shares very similar views to him) people would call be a neo-Nazi, so let's not apply double standards here...

Like I said, I don't give a sh!t about David Duke or his views. Whatever his motivations might be, he has put forth claims of Israel and/or Zionist crimes and it's fair to discuss them. And Azar has already confirmed once again that he is not whatever you called him to be, it is insulting. No, you won't be called a Nazi if you quote Hitler. I would certainly not call you one. Hitler has some very good quotes that have nothing to do with Nazism or can exist outside the Nazi context and apply today. For example, if you mentioned the 'Big Lie' technique (invented by Adolf), why on Earth would I or anyone label you a Nazi? It's a concept or an argument.

Oh so Muslims have always treated us well? That's what you're trying to say? This Muslim-Armenian alliance is truly ridiculous, we've been oppressed and targeted often by Muslim powers because of our religion. After all in the Q'uran it says that the infidel (that's us) deserves to be killed. Point out to Byzantines all you want but fact remains fact that over our history the largest source of our oppression has been by Muslim powers. During Cilicia we were allied with the Christian Crusades, and it was a true golden age and cultural renaissance for us during those times of independence.

You assume too much Mos. Where did I say Muslim have always treated us well? In fact, I said we were treated badly under every empire and the Muslims were simply the latest one that destroyed all the others. He who is in power treats its subjects badly. That's it, that's all. The Ottomans treated us like second class citizens but you can't ignore also the Millet system's revolutionary concept of granting us religious freedom, something unheard of before. The Qu'ran calls us Dhimmi yes. The xxxs have a similar idea of us. Non-factors in realpolitik. There is no Muslim-Armenian alliance, where do you come up with these things? You mix religion too much with your politics, it's not how things truly are. It's like if someone saw Armenia and Azerbaijan fighting and thought this was a religious war. In the realpolitik world, nations are only after their own national interests and do not care about Muslim/Christian/Buddhist or whatever stuff in the long run.

oh come'on, have you not heard about all the resolutions they adopted condeming armenia. The biggest supporters of Azerbaijan were Muslim fundamentalists and Pakistan. Can you not accept that yes Muslim terrorist groups were supporting Azerbaijan and killed Armenian soldiers??

The UN also has resolutions condemning Armenia as well. It has hundreds on Israel. Big deal! The problem is again you throwing all Muslims into one bag which is hardly accurate or what goes on in reality. F*k the Afghans and Chechens who fought against us. F*k Pakistan for not recognising us. But thank you Iran for not blockading us during the war. Thank you Egypt, Lebanon and Syria for helping Armenian refugees settle in your countries after the AG. Do you get it?

Fun fact: when the Chechens realised the Azerbaijanis did not give a xxxx about religion and the war was about nationalism and territory, they pulled out of the war.

Oh right, like how you say Israel is at fault for everything in the palestinian-israeli conflict....

Again, where have I said these things?

No religion played a key emotional role for the Turks and Kurds in killing us, the Greeks, and the Assyrians, do not ignore that. Many of these soldiers were simple farmer folks who used Islam to justify the killings and exterminate us from our ancestral homeland. Why else did they target all Christian minorities? The notion of the Armenia-Islam alliance is just truly ridiculous, and believing in such false promises is what has led turbulent times in our history like the genocide. We have to look at reality and not be pro-Muslim like some people here, but pro-Armenian, and be suspicious of everybody else except strong friends.

Please read carefully. Islam was a tool used by the Young Turks to massacre Armenians, it was not a cause of the genocide. The cause of the genocide was Pan-Turan wet dreams. The Young Turks (who weren't even de-facto Muslims) used religion by saying the Christians in the Balkans killed the Muslims there so that the average dumbf*k in the army gets bloodthirst for us. The puppetmasters played the game out successfully. Their true intentions had nothing to do with religion. The Muslim Arabs were also massacred during the AG period. And for the last time, there is no Armenia-Islam alliance lol. And your call on being pro-Armenian is exhibited by all forum members of Armenian descent. But I can point you to a non-pro-Armenian state if you want. (Hint: it's not Christian or Muslim ) Whatever is in the interests of Armenia is what we should be after. Ideally, we should be on good terms with everyone non-hostile to us.

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

I'm not saying we shouldn't engage in commerce or diplomacy, but declaring that they are our brothers or eternal friends is truly ridiculous, especially given our history. We should keep our distance in our relations with them, and not get to cozy.

Nobody has claimed they are our brother or eternal friends. Nobody is our brother or eternal friend. We should be vigilant with all our relations and not just Muslim states.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

All I'm doing is taking a balanced approach to this conflict, I really could care less what happens in that area, but if I'm to discuss it I will do so in a neutral manner. Again both sides do bad things, and depicting Israelis as the monsters and Palestinians as the only victims is quite an exaggeration and inaccurate. Palestinians do there bad deeds with terrorist attacks/using human shields, Israelis do their bad things by being overly aggressive with their military and overly aggressive retaliations at times. There's propaganda on both sides.

On a more personal level, I've had a few Israeli friends with whom I got along very well and they were actually pretty pro-Armenian and anti-Turkish. They also reflect on the fact that many Israelis believe that the Genocide should be recognized. I'm not going to take a Israeli bias because of these friends, but saying that all Israelis are baby-killers or evil is just really wrong.

Another note,

It seems Armenia doesn't recognize Palestine? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nition-map.png

What's the reason by curiosity... (

[Azar]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with Muslims.

Now I don't really care that much about Islam as I view it as culturally foreign to Iran, but lets imagine someone said what you just said about xxxs.

It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with xxxs.

I think you'd be sounding off the "anti-Semite" alarm