How does everyone feel about Israel?

[Joseph]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The worst thing about the Armenians who want to "discuss Israel" as some sort of "Armenian topic" is that they are almost all just your average holocaust denier idiots who have absolutely no interest in real Armenian topics.

There is a reason the word jew is auto-corrected to xxx here. All discussions with that word or revolving Israel almost immediately follow Godwin's law and once a discussion has a mention of Hitler, you might as well just delete the thread already.

I agree

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The worst thing about the Armenians who want to "discuss Israel" as some sort of "Armenian topic" is that they are almost all just your average holocaust denier idiots who have absolutely no interest in real Armenian topics.

There is a reason the word jew is auto-corrected to xxx here. All discussions with that word or revolving Israel almost immediately follow Godwin's law and once a discussion has a mention of Hitler, you might as well just delete the thread already.

Or when people start bring up neo-Nazis and white supremacists as legitimate sources....

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The carnage in Sabra and Shatila was committed directly by the Christian groups, and happened knowingly under the Israeli noses. Of course you ignore how Christians were massacred by the Lebanese Muslim factions and how these massacres were a see-saw between the Muslim and Christian factions....The King David bombing was done by an extremist Israeli group so analogous to the Palestinian extremist groups, and I can also present you a much more longer list of all the times Palestinians have targeted and killed innocent civilians or used their own people as human shields...

Israel, along with the Lebanese Christians, is directly responsible for the massacre because the camp was guarded by Israel and Ariel Sharon let the Phalangists into the camp. While Palestinians did commit a massacre against the Christians at Damour, the overwhelming massacring was being done by the Christian side (Sabra and Shatila, Black Saturday, Karantina, Tel al-Za'atar).

I'd like to see when Palestinians have used human shields. If by human shields, you mean fighting in the streets of Palestine and bystanders being shot, that's really not using a human shield. If you mean people voluntarily standing infront of fighters, that's a choice and not forcing. It's doubtful that Palestinians forcefully use human shields simply because all the warring factions are nationalists and they all rely on popular support for their continuing existence. Israel, however, has been widely documented in their use of human shields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israel There's a part on the Gaza and West Bank too in that link that documents how people crowd infront of mosques and homes in order for it to not be demolished. Rabbis have done the same for Palestinians.

You know I've lost all respect for you. Supporting a bigoted neo-Nazi is just beyond my comprehension. What's next quoting Mein Kampf to show that xxxs are inferior or something? I really wouldn't be surprised. All this guy does is spread around hate and an idiotic viewpoint of the world around him. Do you also support KKK? Nazis? Holocaust? Russian skin heads? If you support this guy, the answers to those question should be obvious.

You're really taking it too far and villifying users when they have said no such thing other than posting a video of David Duke talking about alleged Israeli and Zionist crimes. It's not like the video was supporting the KKK or neo-Nazis or any crap like that.

If you wish to go identify yourself with that branch of Islam go right ahead, but remember you are abandoning Armenia in the process who has suffered a great deal because of Islamic extremism.

Since the beginning of our history, Zoroastrians (Persians), Christians (Byzantines, Romans) and Pagans (Romans and everyone before them) have massacred and conquered us too. They all wanted us to convert to their own religion. Islamic empires are just the last thing because they took out all the other religions in the region.

From the adoption of Christianity, Islamic powers have tried to subjugate us, conquer us, from the Arabs to the Persians, and eventually during the Genocide where because of our religion the Ottoman Muslims massacred 1.5 million of our own people, and all the way up to Karabakh war where Afghan and Chechen Islamic groups supported Azeris.

Whoa, wait. What? We weren't killed because we were Christian, we were killed because we were Armenian and we stood in the way of a Turkic empire. Religion was simply a tool used to fire up the troops during our massacres.

[Yedtarts]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

You know I've lost all respect for you.

I will consider this as a badge of honor and wear it proudly.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Israel, along with the Lebanese Christians, is directly responsible for the massacre because the camp was guarded by Israel and Ariel Sharon let the Phalangists into the camp. While Palestinians did commit a massacre against the Christians at Damour, the overwhelming massacring was being done by the Christian side (Sabra and Shatila, Black Saturday, Karantina, Tel al-Za'atar).

Bad things were done by both the Christian and the Muslim factions, it was a deadly civil war. Israels didn't go targeting innocent civilians, they supported the Christians with weapons and troops, as Christians were fighting the same terrorist groups that often targeted Israel.

I'd like to see when Palestinians have used human shields. If by human shields, you mean fighting in the streets of Palestine and bystanders being shot, that's really not using a human shield. If you mean people voluntarily standing infront of fighters, that's a choice and not forcing. It's doubtful that Palestinians forcefully use human shields simply because all the warring factions are nationalists and they all rely on popular support for their continuing existence. Israel, however, has been widely documented in their use of human shields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israel There's a part on the Gaza and West Bank too in that link that documents how people crowd infront of mosques and homes in order for it to not be demolished. Rabbis have done the same for Palestinians.

No, it's terrorists hiding in heavily populated places, near civilians, so that when Israel attacks and kills civilians they can use it as propaganda against Israel and demonize them as "baby-killers". How else do they get their funding for weapons, missiles, and recruitments?

You're really taking it too far and villifying users when they have said no such thing other than posting a video of David Duke talking about alleged Israeli and Zionist crimes. It's not like the video was supporting the KKK or neo-Nazis or any crap like that.

No, posting a video of Duke is legitimizing him as a person. And I don't understand how one can legitimize that racist, Nazi, ass_hole. It's the equivalent of quoting Mein Kampf and saying oh don't pay attention to who wrote it, just pay attention to the points he makes regarding xxxs...

Since the beginning of our history, Zoroastrians (Persians), Christians (Byzantines, Romans) and Pagans (Romans and everyone before them) have massacred and conquered us too. They all wanted us to convert to their own religion. Islamic empires are just the last thing because they took out all the other religions in the region.

Yes, and how many times have those Islamic powers oppressed us for our religion? How many times have they violated our freedom and independence? If we became Muslims than all our problems would have been solved, but I'm happy we didn't convert to that backwards religion and stayed true to our great Armenian Church and Christian identity. it's because of our church we are who we are, and I will never turn my back on it.

Whoa, wait. What? We weren't killed because we were Christian, we were killed because we were Armenian and we stood in the way of a Turkic empire. Religion was simply a tool used to fire up the troops during our massacres.

We along with other Christian minorities were massacred because we were Christian and a suitable scapegoat for the Ottoman leaders who were dealing with a crumbling empire. Just look at the Hamidian massacres. You know how some Armenians survived? They converted to Islam. If the Ottomans were unsure they would pull down your pants and if you weren't circumcised they would shoot you on the spot. The Armenian Genocide was just a highlight in the our history of oppression and massacre by Muslim powers.

This is from wikipedia but very valid points,

Abdul Hamid believed that the woes of the Ottoman Empire stemmed from "the endless persecutions and hostilities of the Christian world."[4] He perceived the Ottoman Armenians to be an extension of foreign hostility, a means by which Europe could "get at our most vital places and tear out our very guts."[3]

The Sultan ignored the massacres as long as they were not directed against the Muslim population.

The historian Lord Kinross claims that massacres of this kind were often achieved by gathering Muslims in a local mosque and claiming that the Armenians had the aim of "striking at Islam.

right Islam had nothing to do with the Genocide....

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Bad things were done by both the Christian and the Muslim factions, it was a deadly civil war. Israels didn't go targeting innocent civilians, they supported the Christians with weapons and troops, as Christians were fighting the same terrorist groups that often targeted Israel.

And in the context of this same civil war, Israelis knowing the Phalangists are massacring Palestinians, they armed the Christians and then let them into a refugee camp to they can carry out their massacre. It's like if the prison guards let in hitmen to go out and kill prisoners that they dislike. Not cool. Labeling one side terrorist and not the other is your own bias. Fact is and will remain that the Christians were by far the bloodiest of the warring factions and they were allied with none other than Israel.

No, it's terrorists hiding in heavily populated places, near civilians, so that when Israel attacks and kills civilians they can use it as propaganda against Israel and demonize them as "baby-killers". How else do they get their funding for weapons, missiles, and recruitments?

Yes, when two opposing forces are not equal in strength, it leads to a guerrilla war where fighting takes place sporadically in urban areas. The entire Gaza Strip and West Bank IS the battlefield. And the local population IS the belligerent. Airstrikes and such are the things that cause the most damage to civilian populations. When you throw a megaton bomb on a leader of Hamas who is leaving a crowded mosque after prayers, what do you think will happen? Israel does not calculate this? And Israel shoots itself in the foot by feeding into the Palestinian propaganda by its continuous and widely documented use of human shields. That is the most damaging I find. The funding for weapons and such is irelevant. It comes from rich ex-pats, charity and Arab nations and Iran. Israel's funding comes from Western nations. Who cares?

No, posting a video of Duke is legitimizing him as a person. And I don't understand how one can legitimize that racist, Nazi, ass_hole. It's the equivalent of quoting Mein Kampf and saying oh don't pay attention to who wrote it, just pay attention to the points he makes regarding xxxs...

You don't like him and many other people do not like him either. That does not mean that everything that comes out of his mouth is related to Nazism or the such. In the video, he is putting forth claims of Israeli and/or Zionist crimes. You can't just go around and throw labels at people calling them neo-Nazis and the such just because they posted a video from a person that has links to those organisations. Who knows? Maybe the poster does not support neo-Nazism but support his stance on the Israeli government.

Yes, and how many times have those Islamic powers oppressed us for our religion? How many times have they violated our freedom and independence? If we became Muslims than all our problems would have been solved, but I'm happy we didn't convert to that backwards religion and stayed true to our great Armenian Church and Christian identity. it's because of our church we are who we are, and I will never turn my back on it.

You missed the point. Every empire with a specific religion has tried to subjugate us and not just the Muslims and that's regardless of what we have believed in. Even the French tried to catholicise us in Cilicia and partly succeeded. The Muslims were just the LAST empire trying to force their will upon us. BTW, the Ottoman Millet system was revolutionary in the sense that for the first time in any empire, we were protected legally as a religious minority and had certain religious laws to which we could govern ourselves.

We along with other Christian minorities were massacred because we were Christian and a suitable scapegoat for the Ottoman leaders who were dealing with a crumbling empire. Just look at the Hamidian massacres. You know how some Armenians survived? They converted to Islam. If the Ottomans were unsure they would pull down your pants and if you weren't circumcised they would shoot you on the spot. The Armenian Genocide was just a highlight in the our history of oppression and massacre by Muslim powers.

This is from wikipedia but very valid points,

right Islam had nothing to do with the Genocide....

The quotes from Wikipedia all point to the Hamidian massacres and not the Armenian Genocide. They are two different events. The Sultan's and Young Turks' motivations to slaughter us were very different from one another. In fact, the Sultan, who it can be argued had a religious motivation behind his massacres, was much more lenient (ironically) to the Young Turks as history showed. By the way, Arabs were massacred during the period of the AG as well and they were Muslims. Again, religion was just a tool used to the Young Turks' advantage.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

And in the context of this same civil war, Israelis knowing the Phalangists are massacring Palestinians, they armed the Christians and then let them into a refugee camp to they can carry out their massacre. It's like if the prison guards let in hitmen to go out and kill prisoners that they dislike. Not cool. Labeling one side terrorist and not the other is your own bias. Fact is and will remain that the Christians were by far the bloodiest of the warring factions and they were allied with none other than Israel.

First of all the discussion was regarding Palestinian militant groups, not factions in the Lebanese Civil War. Second of all, bad things were done by both sides with muslims being supported by Syrian and Iran. So if you are going to call Israel what you call, than you must also call Syria and Iran the same thing. Lastly, atrocities by warring factions should not be compared to terrorist attacks by palestinians groups.

Yes, when two opposing forces are not equal in strength, it leads to a guerrilla war where fighting takes place sporadically in urban areas. The entire Gaza Strip and West Bank IS the battlefield. And the local population IS the belligerent. Airstrikes and such are the things that cause the most damage to civilian populations. When you throw a megaton bomb on a leader of Hamas who is leaving a crowded mosque after prayers, what do you think will happen? Israel does not calculate this? And Israel shoots itself in the foot by feeding into the Palestinian propaganda by its continuous and widely documented use of human shields. That is the most damaging I find. The funding for weapons and such is irelevant. It comes from rich ex-pats, charity and Arab nations and Iran. Israel's funding comes from Western nations. Who cares?

No, palestinian terrorist groups have specifically made sure they hid in places with a dense amount of population, this tactic was also evident during Gaza war. They could hid in more discrete and less populated places, but they don't. they do for a specific purpose and it's to full-fill their sick and selfish purposes of propaganda and the expense of innocent lives.

People throwing rocks are not belligerents, I'm talking about the organized groups that go out and blow themselves up to take out innocent Israeli lives. There's a big difference.

You don't like him and many other people do not like him either. That does not mean that everything that comes out of his mouth is related to Nazism or the such. In the video, he is putting forth claims of Israeli and/or Zionist crimes. You can't just go around and throw labels at people calling them neo-Nazis and the such just because they posted a video from a person that has links to those organisations. Who knows? Maybe the poster does not support neo-Nazism but support his stance on the Israeli government.

So, it's fine to quote Mein Kampf and ignore who wrote it? Fact remains fact you can't ignore the person whose behind this and his intentions for making this video, intention out of idiotic anti-Semitism, and the fact that the person listens to this guy is beyond my comprehension. I mean really David Dukes?

Yes I can go around throwing labels around because this person is a proven neo-Nazi and head of the KKK. You can't go wrong with him. And again his stance on Israel is just fuelled by his burning anti-Semitism, inspired by Hitler and other mental diseases that occupy his mind.

You missed the point. Every empire with a specific religion has tried to subjugate us and not just the Muslims and that's regardless of what we have believed in. Even the French tried to catholicise us in Cilicia and partly succeeded. The Muslims were just the LAST empire trying to force their will upon us. BTW, the Ottoman Millet system was revolutionary in the sense that for the first time in any empire, we were protected legally as a religious minority and had certain religious laws to which we could govern ourselves.

So tell me the last time Christians came and massacred us or oppressed us? Russians helped us, Greeks have been reliable friends, we've always been good with the French. The fact remains fact what Muslims have done to us throughout our history. Sure we still have minorities in Muslim countries that are treated relatively well, but their views on non-muslims or "infidels" is well known.

I very well will not forget the Muslim brotherhood with Azerbaijan and the support by Islamic Organization.

What are you trying to prove anyways? We should turn our back on Christianity and turn to Islam? Look at what Islam has done to Middle east, look at Iran how Islam has turned that country into a hell-hole. It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with Muslims.

The quotes from Wikipedia all point to the Hamidian massacres and not the Armenian Genocide. They are two different events. The Sultan's and Young Turks' motivations to slaughter us were very different from one another. In fact, the Sultan, who it can be argued had a religious motivation behind his massacres, was much more lenient (ironically) to the Young Turks as history showed. By the way, Arabs were massacred during the period of the AG as well and they were Muslims. Again, religion was just a tool used to the Young Turks' advantage.

Oh so Hamidian massacres were not important? You know how many thousands of Armenian died during those massacres? just because they show that Muslims were targeting us for religion you ignore it? Yes Islam was used as a tool to Massacre us and other Christian minorities. If we were Muslim they wouldn't have massacre us and that's why some Armenians during AG converted. They destroyed our churches or converted them to their mosques. The whole Turkish/Ottoman identity is based on lies and stealing other people's cultures and lands. That's it.

I'm proud to be Christian and to have known that Armenians despite all the Muslim powers that tried to convert us, we stand strong with our ancient Christian identity intact. That comes to show the resilience of our people and the strength of our church. Long live Armenia and f*ck anybody who thinks otherwise.

[Federate]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

First of all the discussion was regarding Palestinian militant groups, not factions in the Lebanese Civil War. Second of all, bad things were done by both sides with muslims being supported by Syrian and Iran. So if you are going to call Israel what you call, than you must also call Syria and Iran the same thing. Lastly, atrocities by warring factions should not be compared to terrorist attacks by palestinians groups.

This is what you said "Bad things were done by both the Christian and the Muslim factions, it was a deadly civil war." so both of us are discussing factions as well but regardless, the Palestinians (the militant groups as the armed wing) were one of the factions in the Lebanese Civil War and the ones who suffered the most during it. The specific event we are talking about was Sabra and Shatila where Israel had a direct role and besides the Damour massacre of Christians, all the massacring was one-sided (Christians on Muslims). I don't know why you bring up Iran (possibly just cause you're throwing all Muslims in one bag or possibly because they support Hezbollah in 2010) but the Iranians had no part in the civil war. The Syrians were never involved in a massacre either themselves shooting or a la Israel where they let armed men into refugee camps to shoot the place up. The Syrian role at first ironically was against the Palestinian militants. Afterwards, they fought the Lebanese Forces Christian militia and the bastards decided to stay and occupy Lebanon for another 15 years. Screw Syria too, for that reason.

No, palestinian terrorist groups have specifically made sure they hid in places with a dense amount of population, this tactic was also evident during Gaza war. They could hid in more discrete and less populated places, but they don't. they do for a specific purpose and it's to full-fill their sick and selfish purposes of propaganda and the expense of innocent lives.

People throwing rocks are not belligerents, I'm talking about the organized groups that go out and blow themselves up to take out innocent Israeli lives. There's a big difference.

You have to familiarise yourself with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare It's not completely true that they "hide" in densely populated areas on purpose, rather they have families and Israel often chooses to target them when they are most vulnerable such as inside their own homes, during political gatherings (they are politicians too often) or when they leave a mosque because often they have problems finding them because these same militants are hiding in safe areas when they are conducting operations. And in those settings, civilians will be present and they will die when you launch a missile at them. And of course, when this happens it's a no-brainer the victim's side will use it for propaganda. It's a war and civilian deaths are always used to bolster support. Don't forget also that Gaza happens to be one of the most densely populated regions in the world so honestly, Israel is fighting a losing war when it comes to civilians. Both sides engage in propaganda and sadly, it sounds like you catch Palestinian propaganda quickly but fail to detect the propaganda when it comes from Israel. Finally, we can't forget that Palestinian factions are all nationalists and it would make little sense for them to sacrifice civilians like that but this is just a minor point.

So, it's fine to quote Mein Kampf and ignore who wrote it? Fact remains fact you can't ignore the person whose behind this and his intentions for making this video, intention out of idiotic anti-Semitism, and the fact that the person listens to this guy is beyond my comprehension. I mean really David Dukes?

Yes I can go around throwing labels around because this person is a proven neo-Nazi and head of the KKK. You can't go wrong with him. And again his stance on Israel is just fuelled by his burning anti-Semitism, inspired by Hitler and other mental diseases that occupy his mind.

You missed the point man. Mein Kampf is not comparable to David Duke. Mein Kampf, a book, had an entire intent to spread an ideology. David Duke has opinions on certain matters external of his other views, meaning they are exclusive from his opinions on Aryans or whatever he believes in. He might be a neo-Nazi for example and believe in I dunno what but if he is critical of the Israeli government and cites alleged crimes, then there's nothing wrong with posting and discussing this. But this is beyond the point, the problem here is you labelling another user by a term which is not justified and can be considered as an insult. No user has admitted to being a neo-Nazi or whatever label you used on them so cease calling them such. And I couldn't give a sh!t about David Duke.

So tell me the last time Christians came and massacred us or oppressed us? Russians helped us, Greeks have been reliable friends, we've always been good with the French. The fact remains fact what Muslims have done to us throughout our history. Sure we still have minorities in Muslim countries that are treated relatively well, but their views on non-muslims or "infidels" is well known.

Well, during the Lebanese Civil War, when Armenians chose to be neutral, the Christians bombed the Armenian quarters and we suffered plenty. I know people who were kidnapped or are maimed today due to them. In Armenia's case, the Byzantine empire was pretty brutal against us and is half the reason why Armenia was divided into two, something that affects us to this day. But the reason perhaps why Christians haven't done much to us since the fall of the Byzantines is because Christian countries fell to Muslim countries and they haven't been in power for awhile Religion does not mean much in politics. Russia helped us simply because the Ottoman Empire was threat, not because of our religion even if that might've been an extra motivation. By the way, xxxs are equally bad as Muslims when it comes to non-xxxs or "infidels". Our priests get spat on in Jerusalem by xxxs on a daily basis

I very well will not forget the Muslim brotherhood with Azerbaijan and the support by Islamic Organization.

Not all of the Islamic Organisation. And their motivation is based on politics.

What are you trying to prove anyways? We should turn our back on Christianity and turn to Islam? Look at what Islam has done to Middle east, look at Iran how Islam has turned that country into a hell-hole. It's a backwards religion that we should never associate with and should always be careful in our relations with Muslims.

Lol no. I'm showing you that you unjustly blame everything on Muslims when everyone else has been equally bad if in a position of power.

Oh so Hamidian massacres were not important? You know how many thousands of Armenian died during those massacres? just because they show that Muslims were targeting us for religion you ignore it? Yes Islam was used as a tool to Massacre us and other Christian minorities. If we were Muslim they wouldn't have massacre us and that's why some Armenians during AG converted. They destroyed our churches or converted them to their mosques. The whole Turkish/Ottoman identity is based on lies and stealing other people's cultures and lands. That's it.

I'm proud to be Christian and to have known that Armenians despite all the Muslim powers that tried to convert us, we stand strong with our ancient Christian identity intact. That comes to show the resilience of our people and the strength of our church. Long live Armenia and f*ck anybody who thinks otherwise.

Mos, where did you read the Hamidian Massacres were not important? We were talking about the AG a page back but you quoted stuff from the Hamidian massacres. They are different events, with different motivations. One was perhaps motivated by relgion (but mostly sparked by taxes) but the other (the actual genocide) was motivated by Turan wet dreams. Scholars confirm this. Whether they converted our churches into mosques is just the side effect after the genocide. And converting to Islam back then meant converting yourself into a Turk or Kurd. Religion was strictly identified with ethnicities. That's why we use the terms "Turkified" and "Kurdified" when speaking of our lost Armenians.

[Azar]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

So Azar you support Hitler as well? You support Ku Klux Klan? Ahmadinejad would be proud of your neo-Nazi and anti-Semitic support...

Of course not and neither have I ever said that I support Duke.

Duke is no longer a member of the KKK, your points are invalid.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The worst thing about the Armenians who want to "discuss Israel" as some sort of "Armenian topic" is that they are almost all just your average holocaust denier idiots who have absolutely no interest in real Armenian topics.

There is a reason the word jew is auto-corrected to xxx here. All discussions with that word or revolving Israel almost immediately follow Godwin's law and once a discussion has a mention of Hitler, you might as well just delete the thread already.

Israel is probably the one Armenian topic that should be discussed more frequently but isn't due to the instant labeling of antisemitism. Not only are those lands part of Armenian history but Israel plays a major role with local politics as well as directly affecting Armenia's neighbours. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room.

right Islam had nothing to do with the Genocide....

Yeah... the wealthy sultans wanted Armenians to have 4 wives and 300 concubines and since our ancestors refused, it warranted a need for extermination.