Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[kemal]

Now I know who is Hulegu. It seems that he was a great loss in deed!

Chapter 25
How Mongke-Khan's Brother, Hulegu, Wasted Assyria and Entered the Kingdom of Persia
Hulegu, after seeing to what was necessary and proper for the preservation of the kingdom of Persia, went to a district in the land called Sotlok' [Soloch, plain of Hamadan]. There he gave himself over to recreation and rest for the entire summer. But at the coming of winter, he besieged the city of Baghdad where the head and teacher of the Muhammedan religion lived. Hulegu called up 30,000 Tartar troops who were in the country of the Turks. After assembling his people from all parts, he attacked that city and quickly took it. [When he had gathered his host, he had the city of Baghdad assailed on all sides, until they took it by force; and they put to the sword the men and women they encountered. oe39] The Caliph was arrested and led before Hulegu; and they found such astounding wealth there that it was truly a wonder to behold. The city of Baghdad was taken in the year 1258. [g47]

Chapter 26
How Hulegu Took the City of Baghdad and Did Away with the Caliph, Head of the Saracen Religion; the Death of the Caliph
Once Hulegu had done what he willed with the city of Baghdad, he commanded that the Caliph be brought before him and had all his treasures put in front of him. Hulegu asked him: "Do you realize that all the things you see were yours?" And the Caliph replied: "Yes." Then Hulegu reproached him: "How is it that with all this wealth you did not have mercenary troops and call your neighbors to preserve yourself and your country from the might of the Tartars?" The Caliph replied: "I thought that my people would be sufficient." Then Hulegu said to him: "You were called Caliph, head of all those holding the religion of Mahmet, yet you choked on your wealth. Now such a great leader should be fed on no other food. This huge amount of wealth is the food which you so loved and kept with insatiable greed." Having said this, Hulegu ordered that the Caliph be placed in a room and that pearls and gold be set before him, so that he eat of them as much as he pleased. He decreed that no other food or drink be given to him. Thus did that wretched, greedy, covetous man dismally end his life. Thereafter no caliph resided in Baghdad. [g48]
Chapter 27
Regarding the Persecution of Saracens
After conquering Baghdad and the surrounding areas, Hulegu divided the districts among his generals and administrators as he saw fit. He decreed that kindness be shown to Christians everywhere and that the maintenance of fortresses and cities be entrusted to them, while the Saracens were thrown into the meanest servitude.
The wife of Hulegu, named Dukos saron [Dokuz khatun], was a Christian descended from the line of those kings who had come from the East, guided by the Star, to be present at the birth of the Lord. This woman, an extremely devout Christian, [caused all the Christian churches there to be rebuilt, oe40] and all the Saracen mosques demolished. All their religious celebrations in honor of the head of the faith [Muhammad] were prevented, and thus were the Saracens put into servitude from which the did not emerge for some time thereafter.
Chapter 28
How Hulegu Conquered the City of Antioch
Then Hulegu relaxed for a year in the city of Edessa. He sent to the King of Armenia for him to come to him with his troops, for he planned to go to the Holy Land to deliver it to the Christians. King Het'um set out with 12,000 cavalry and 40,000 infantry and went to Hulegu. [For in this period, the realm of Armenia was prospering, so that [Het'um] had xii thousand horsemen and xii thousand infantry; and I saw that in my day. oe40] Het'um said to [Hulegu]: "Your Excellency, the Sultan of Aleppo holds sway over the entire country of Syria and the city of [g49] Jerusalem is located in that kingdom. Therefore, if you capture the main city of Aleppo first, you will be lord of the entire country of Syria." Hulegu accepted the advice and ordered that Aleppo be besieged. The city was very strong, fortified with walls, heavily populated and wealthy. Hulegu courageously attacked it, making use of underground passages, with machinery called mules, with bowmen, catapults, and various other sorts of weapons. Despite the fact that the city seemed impregnable, he took it in nine days, discovering an unbelievable amount of treasure there. In the center of the city was a fortress which he took with rock-hurling devices, after twelve [eleven, oe41] days. [So Aleppo was taken and after that, the entire realm of Syria in the year 1260. oe41].

Chapter 29
The Taking of Damascus and the Holy Land as Far as the Egyptian Desert
After this, Hulegu took the city of Damascus together with the sons and wife of the Sultan of Aleppo. The latter went to Hulegu seeking their return and also mercy, but his hopes were frustrated. For Hulegu sent him with his wife and children to the kingdom of Persia, so that Syria would remain tranquil. Hulegu gave to the King of Armenia a large part of the booty and numerous fortresses close to his kingdom. The Armenian King had these fortified as he chose.
Subsequently, Hulegu sent presents to [sent for, oe41] the duke of Antioch [Bohemond VI] who was a relative of the King of Armenia [son-in-law of the King of Armenia, oe41], and ordered that all the districts [g50] of his kingdom which the Saracens had held be returned to him. He also bestowed many other favors on him. Having put these affairs in order, he immediately wanted to go against Jerusalem to return it to the Christians. But just then, bad tidings from a reliable source reached him regarding the death of his brother and the fact that the throne of the Tartar Khanate was vacant [and that the lords wanted to make him Emperor, oe42]. As soon as he heard this [news about his brother's death, oe42], [Hulegu] fell into deep sorrow and advanced no farther. Instead, he made his way east, leaving his son [named Abagha, oe41] in Tabriz. He appointed a general named Kit-Bugha [and gave him 10,00 troops, oe41] to hold the kingdom of the country of Syria, to take Jerusalem, and return it to the Christians.
Chapter 30
Qubilai-Khan, Fifth Ruler of the Tartars
When Hulegu reached the land of Persia, he received news that the nobility and grandees had already seated his brother Qubilai on the throne of the Tartar Khanate. [Once Hulegu heard this he went no farther, but returned again to Tabriz where he had left his son, household, and servants. oe42]. While in Tabriz he learned that Partat [Berke] was coming with great preparation into his lands. Hulegu immediately assembled the entire multitude of his people and went against his adversaries on a certain frozen river. There a ferocious battle took place. But from the weight of the multitude of soldiers and horses, the ice gave way and 30,000 Tartars drowned from both sides. The remaining two armies turned back greatly saddened over their losses.
Meanwhile Kit-Bugha, whom Hulegu had left in Syria and Palestine, conducted the affairs of those regions peacefully and greatly loved the Christians. [g51] For he, too, was a descendant of those three kings who had come to adore the nativity of the Lord. Kit-Bugha was interested in returning the Holy Land to the Christians but the devil fomented discord between him and the Christians of those parts. For in the country of Tepel Fordis [Belfort] in the lordship of the Sidonites were numerous villages and districts where the Saracens lived and provided the Tartars with set taxes. It happened that some men from Sidon and Belfort gathered together, went to the Saracens' villages and fields, looted them, killed many Saracens and took others into captivity together with a great deal of livestock. A certain nephew of Kit-Bugha who resided there, taking along but few cavalry, pursued the Christians who had done these things to tell them on his uncle's behalf to leave the booty. But some of the Christians attacked and killed him and some other Tartars. When Kit-Bugha learned of this, he immediately took the city of the Sidon and destroyed most of the walls [and killed as many Christians as he found. But the people of Sidon fled to an island, and only a few were slain. oe43]. Thereafter the Tartars no longer trusted the Christians, nor the Christians the Tartars. But later the Tartars were expelled from the country of Syria, as I shall relate below.
Chapter 31
The Death of Hulegu and How the Sultan Took Back the Land of Syria and Egypt
While Hulegu was battling with Berke, as was described above, the Sultan of Egypt [Kutuz] with his assembled troops arose from [g52] Egypt and went to Henialek [Haymelot, Ain Jalut] in Palestine and began warring with the Tartar general Kit-Bugha [A.D. 1260]. Kit-Bugha was slain there while those Tartars who narrowly escaped made their way to [Cilician] Armenia. Thereafter the country of Syria once again fell under the domination of the Saracens, excluding a few cities on the coast which the Christians held. Learning about this, Hulegu assembled his troops and sent to the King of Armenia, the King of Georgia, and other eastern Christians [in Syria, oe43] that they come in readiness to battle the Sultan of Egypt. When he himself had assembled his soldiers, he fell ill and died after fifteen days. This was a great loss, since the Holy Land would not be captured again. His son, Abagha, succeeded him, and at his request his uncle, Qubilai-Khan, confirmed him in his father's lordship in the year 1264.

What was I saying, Hmmm? Maybe it's time to cut the your list a little bit short. What do you think?

[matteo]

The text which I quote below is from 'A History of the Modern World since 1815', written by R.R Palmer & Joel Colton, published by McGraw-Hill. I used that book in my history classes at Tufts University.

"In 1856 the Ottoman government issued the Hatt-i Humayun, the most far-reaching reform edict of the century. Its purpose was to create an Ottoman national citizenship for all persons in the empire. It abolished the civil authority of religious hierarchs. Equality before the law was guaranteed as was eligibility to public office without regard to religion. The army was opened to Christians and Muslims alike, and steps were taken to include both in nonsegregated military units. The edict announced a reform of taxes, security of property for all, abolition of torture, and reform of prisons. It promised to combat chronic evils of graft, bribery, and extortion by public officials.

For twenty years there were serious efforts to make the reform decree of 1856 a reality. Western and liberal ideas circulated freely. Newspapers were founded. Writers called for a national Turkish revival,k threww off the old Persian style in literature, composed histories of the Ottomans, translated Montesquieu and Rousseau. Foreign lands entered the country. Railroads joined the Black Sea and the Danube. Abdul Aziz (1861-1876), the first sultan to travel to Europe, visited Vienna, London, and the great Paris world's fair of 1867. But powerful resistance developed against such radical changes. Also, the best efforts of the Turkish reformers miscarried. There were too few Turks with skill or experience in the work required. Abdul Aziz took to spending his borrowed money somewhat too freely for purposes of the harem. In 1874, the Ottoman government, having recklessly overborrowed, repudiated half its debt" (p. 656)

I believe this section comes very near to answering the two issues between bugra and tonge regarding
1) Christians and the Ottoman Army
2) The general level of education among Ottoman Turks.

It looks like Bugra is closer to truth regarding 1) while Tongue's claims about 2) is supported by the book.

[kemal]

Qubilai, Great Khan of the Tartars, sends an army to save the Armenian
Chapter 34
How Abagha Entered Egypt and Destroyed the Country of the Turks
The Armenian King, Levon, ruled wisely and with an alert mind, beloved by his own people and by the Tartars. With all his heart he labored to destroy the Saracens. Now it came to pass that Abagha (Son of ;Hulegu – mynote) made peace with his neighbors, with whom he had been inimical for a long time. Then the Sultan of Egypt entered the country of the Turks, killed many Tartars and conquered many villages and districts. A certain Saracen, named P'arwana, who was in the country of the Turks and was head of the Tartars, had revolted from Abagha and was trying to ruin the Tartars or cause them to desert. When Abagha heard about this, he arrived there in fifteen days. When the Sultan of Egypt heard of the coming of the Tartars, [g55] he wanted to flee the land of the Turks, but was unable. For the Tartars had set out quickly and attacked the rearmost wing of the army at a place called Basplang [Lepas Blanc (the pass of Aqchai Bogazi)], at the approaches of Egypt. The Tartars attacked and seized two thousand Saracen cavalry and many goods. They also seized five thousand Kurdish families dwelling in that district. However, when Abagha reached the borders of the country of Egypt, he did not want to advance farther because of the heat, for that district was extremely warm. Furthermore the Tartars and their beasts which had come a very far distance in a hurry, were unable to bear the toil and heat. So Abagha returned to the country of the Turks, and he routed and destroyed all the rebellious places and those which had surrendered to the Sultan. As for the traitor P'arwana and his cohorts, Abagha had him cut to bits, according to Tartar custom. He then ordered that at every meal some of the flesh of the traitor P'arwana be set out. And Abagha and the nobility ate of this. Such was the manner in which King Abagha wreaked vengeance on the traitor P'arwana.

Chapter 35
The Poisoning of the Sultan of Egypt
Having worked his will against the country of the Turks, and when the Tartars were loaded with the loot and riches they had taken from the rebel Saracens, Abagha summoned the King of Armenia and offered the realm of the Turks to him, for [Levon] and his father had always been loyal to the Tartars. The wise and judicious King of Armenia thanked him for the gift, but rejected it on the grounds that he was unable to direct two kingdoms. [g56] For the Sultan of Egypt was extremely powerful and was plotting the destruction of the kingdom of Armenia. And the Armenian King advised Abagha to set in order the affairs of the realm of the Turks before departing so that no Saracen would be able to establish lordship there and so that there would remain no threat of rebellion. Abagha accepted the King's advice and forbade Saracens from holding the lordship in the country of the Turks.
When this was done, the King of Armenia beseeched him regarding freeing the Holy Land from the infidels. Abagha so promised, simultaneously advising the Armenian King to send emissaries to the Pope and to the orthodox kings regarding this matter. [Abagha ordered the King of Armenia to send to the Pope and to the other kings and lords of the Christians of the West, that they should come or send their men to help the Holy Land [oe46] and to keep the lands and cities that they should conquer. Then the King of Armenia departed and returned to his land and sent his messengers to the Pope and to the kings of the West. oe47] Abagha arranged what was necessary and returned to the kingdom of K'orasten [Khurasan] where he had left his family.
Bntuxtar, who had done such wicked things to the Tartars, was poisoned to death in Damascus. The Christians of the East were delighted by this, while the Saracens were saddened by the loss of the brave sultan. Bntuxtar was succeeded by his son, Melik-zade [al-Malik as Said Nasir-ad-din Muhammed, sultan 1277-79]. After a short while he was expelled, and Ershi [al-Mansur Saif-ad-Din Kalawun al-Elfy, 1279-90] became Sultan.

Chapter 36
How the Tartar General, Mangodan, Fled Due to Fear
When Abagha was planning to war against the Sultan of Egypt, he sent his brother, Mangodan [Mangu Timur, d.1282], to the country of Syria with 30,000 Tartar troops, to occupy it and give it to the Christians, [and he himself [Abagha] would follow after. If the Sultan came against them, they should bravely fight with him. And if the Sultan dared not come to battle, he commanded that they should occupy the lands and cities and deliver them into the hands of the Christians to keep. oe47] [g57] [Abagha also notified] the King of Armenia. The latter arrived at once with his many troops, and they entered the country of Syria together, looting everywhere as far as the city of Homs, known to many at the time as Semel [la Chalemelle], located in the center of Syria. Before they arrived at the city, there was a plain on which the Sultan had amassed his forces to oppose the Tartars. The Saracens waged a fierce battle with the Tartars and Christians. The King of Armenia headed the right wing. He attacked the left wing of the Sultan of Egypt's army and put it to flight as far as the city of Hams, and even farther [and three leagues beyond, oe47]. Then Almax [Alinaq, a Georgian general], with his Tartar troops, trounced the other side and sent the Saracens fleeing to the city of Dara [Qara]. But Mangu Timur--never having seen battle--encountered some Saracens called Vitin [Bedouins], and was terrified, stopped operations, and abandoned the field of victory [leaving the King of Armenia and the [Georgian] constable who had gone in pursuit of their enemies. oe48].
Now when the Sultan, who thought everything was lost, saw the field of battle empty and completely deserted, he went up onto a mountain, fortified it [with his 4,000 troops, oe48], and captured the place. But when the Armenian King returned from dispersing the enemy, and did not find Mangu Timur, he was astonished and went back after him. Similarly, Alinaq who had also fought the Saracens, waited two days for Mangu Timur--for he knew that the latter had set out--then he hastened to go after him, leaving off his conquering. They rode as far as the banks of the Euphrates, but could not overtake Mangu Timur. After this, the Tartars returned to their place. Now the King of Armenia and his troops suffered greatly on that journey, [g58] for from the length of the trip and scarcity of goods, the horses were thoroughly worn out and were unable to advance. Thus, going along separated from one another via untrodden places, they were mercilessly attacked by the Saracens of the area. Most of the army was lost and almost all the vassals. This unfortunate event occurred in the year 1282.
When Abagha-Khan was informed about all of this, he gathered his multitudinous troops and had them prepare [to enter the realm of Egypt, oe48]. But just then some Saracen came to the kingdom of Persia and gave many bribes to some of Abagha's intimate servants and got them to agree to administer poison to Abagha and his brother, which they did. Both of them died after eight days, the truth of the matter being confused by those very villains. This poisoning occurred in the year 1282.

Chapter 37
Teguder, Hulegu's Second Son, Who Succeeded Abagha on the Throne
Following the death of Abagha, the Tartars assembled and set up Abagha's brother, Teguder, as their lord. In his youth, Teguder had been baptized Nicholaus, but later in life, he cleaved to the Saracens whom he loved, and wanted to be styled Muhammad-Khan. He tried by all means to convert the Tartars to the faith of Muhammad, gave gifts and honors to those whom he did not dare to force; as a result, countless Tartars became Saracens. Then [this son of the devil, oe49] ordered that all Christian churches be destroyed, [g59] and that Christians not dare to preach the laws or doctrines of Christ any longer. He had Muhammad's laws and doctrines preached publicly. He had the Christians banished, and he had the Christian churches of Tabriz totally destroyed. He sent to the Sultan of Egypt and established a peace treaty with him, and vowed to force all Christians in his lordship to become Saracens, or else have them beheaded. Whereupon the Saracens filled with every joy, while the Christians, were overcome with sadness and dread. And there was nothing they could do but call upon the mercy of God to help them, for they experienced very great persecution.

[kemal]

Furthermore, Muhammad-Khan himself sent to the King of Armenia and the King of Georgia and to other Christians ordering them to come before him at once. However, the Christians resolutely decided to die willingly rather than to submit to the impious order [to convert], for there was no other sentiment. While the faithful were so anguished, behold, God, Who never abandons those who place their hopes in Him, gave solace to all the Christians. For that Muhammad-Khan's brother, and his nephew, Arghun, who were opposed to such wicked deeds, went to Qubilai, Great Khan of the Tartars, and informed him that Muhammad-Khan had forsaken the way of their forbears, become a Saracen, and was taking the rest of the Tartars along with him.
As soon as Qubilai-Khan heard this, he became extremely agitated, and sent an order to Muhammad-Khan to pull back and desist from such wickedness or else he would come against him. But Muhammad-Khan ignored the Khan's command and, filled with anger and rage, killed his own brother. Wanting to slay Arghun as well, he went against him with a huge [g60] force. Arghun, unable to resist, fled to the mountains and holed up in a secure fortress. Muhammad-Khan came and besieged this with his troops until Arghun surrendered to him, on condition that he and his lordship be left unharmed. Muhammad-Khan entrusted Arghun to his Constable [Alinaq] and his grandees and returned to Tabriz, where he had left his sons and women, ordering the Constable and his confidants to kill Arghun and to send the head to him.
But the righteous judgement of God, Who preserves the innocent and those who strive for true faith, saw to it that one righteous liberator exist among the impious murderers. This was a brave man, [Buqa], motivated by compassion, who had been nourished by Abagha, Arghun's father. During the night, he raised his sword and struck down the Constable and his co-conspirators. Then he set up Arghun--who was saved from death--as lord and governor of all. Whereupon some through affection and some through fear recognized him as their lord. When this was accomplished, [Arghun] hastened after Muhammad-Khan, seized him, and had him cut to pieces. And so perished this enemy of the faith and the faithful, after a lengthy, unjust misrule of the country [in the second year of his reign, oe50] [1284].
Chapter 38
How Abagha's Son, Arghun, Became Lord of the Tartars after Teguder's Death
In 1284 A.D., Arghun sent ambassadors to the Great Khan of the Tartars to relate all that had transpired. The Great Khan was much pleased at this and sent some senior members of his house [g61] to establish the lordship of Arghun. Thereafter he was honored by everyone and called Khan. The handsome Arghun loved the Christians and looked after his lordship bravely and wisely. And he restored the churches ruined by Muhammad-Khan. Therefore the kings of Armenia and Georgia, together with other Christians, went and beseeched him that the Holy Land be taken through his plan and aid. He consulted about this and then replied that he would do whatever was possible according to their wishes, after making peace with his neighbors. Although he wanted to fulfill his promise, he died in the fourth year of his reign [1284-91]. He was succeeded by his brother, a useless man named Rheghayid [Geikhatu], as we shall explain.

[imported_Hellektor]

Don't take everything too literally!

Hi Kemal,

You are going too fast again. I am still working on your previous posts. I admire your curiosity for research and I have to tell you that I have the entire Robert Bedrossian web on my computer, though I haven’t read everything yet.
I know that the Cilicians made a pact with the Mongols, don’t forget, this sort of thing has been going on forever. The thing is the Mongols didn’t keep their end of the promise and did not help the Cilicians when they needed it.
Why did they make a pact? What would any country do in their place? They were being constantly invaded by the Mamluks, the Seljuks and the Byzantines among others. A small country being attacked on almost monthly basis (this is a manner of speech as one of your pals remarked, don’t take everything literally) had to find allies. I haven’t counted but when I was reading a summary of the Cilician period I think its safe to say they were raided more or less a hundred times in that short period.
Speaking of not taking everything literally, I just mentioned a series of names that are associated with barbarity in most countries these guys xxxxxled on so although I thank you for giving a short biography of these guys, you cannot change the public perception of these people. Let me give you an example: Here in Iran when someone wants to describe a really cruel person, they say: He is worse than Hitler, Chingiz, Teimur, Hulagu, etc. Regardless of what they did when they were not attacking and plundering.
Speaking of pacts, when the Mongols appeared on the scene, the Crusaders could have made a pact with them to destroy the Muslims. I have heard that "they chose the devil they knew over the devil they didn't" and together with the Muslims they confronted the Mongols. It's been said, had the Crusaders made a pact with the Mongols the religion of Islam would not exist today. I have only reported what I've heard. You do a research on this and keep me posted.

[Tongue]

The text which I quote below is from 'A History of the Modern World since 1815', written by R.R Palmer & Joel Colton, published by McGraw-Hill. I used that book in my history classes at Tufts University.

"In 1856 the Ottoman government issued the Hatt-i Humayun, the most far-reaching reform edict of the century. Its purpose was to create an Ottoman national citizenship for all persons in the empire. It abolished the civil authority of religious hierarchs. Equality before the law was guaranteed as was eligibility to public office without regard to religion. The army was opened to Christians and Muslims alike, and steps were taken to include both in nonsegregated military units. The edict announced a reform of taxes, security of property for all, abolition of torture, and reform of prisons. It promised to combat chronic evils of graft, bribery, and extortion by public officials.

For twenty years there were serious efforts to make the reform decree of 1856 a reality. Western and liberal ideas circulated freely. Newspapers were founded. Writers called for a national Turkish revival,k threww off the old Persian style in literature, composed histories of the Ottomans, translated Montesquieu and Rousseau. Foreign lands entered the country. Railroads joined the Black Sea and the Danube. Abdul Aziz (1861-1876), the first sultan to travel to Europe, visited Vienna, London, and the great Paris world's fair of 1867. But powerful resistance developed against such radical changes. Also, the best efforts of the Turkish reformers miscarried. There were too few Turks with skill or experience in the work required. Abdul Aziz took to spending his borrowed money somewhat too freely for purposes of the harem. In 1874, the Ottoman government, having recklessly overborrowed, repudiated half its debt" (p. 656)

I believe this section comes very near to answering the two issues between bugra and tonge regarding
1) Christians and the Ottoman Army
2) The general level of education among Ottoman Turks.

It looks like Bugra is closer to truth regarding 1) while Tongue's claims about 2) is supported by the book.

1) How does this thing you posted, in any way, prove Bugra's claims about

Yes Muslims paid less taxes, but Muslims had to serve in the army where Armenians like other Christians were not have to serve in Army

? And how does that justify the heavy taxing of Christians? You too, need to read about the Ottoman labor battalions and how Armenians were DRAFTED... Now, go read.

2) How does this thing you posted, in any way, disprove my point about social class and cultural differences between Armenian and Turk citizens?

[Tongue]

I think they need to make friends with Turks not to choose being enemies. Instead of using anti Muslim, anti Turkish feelings among Europeans.

What have Armenians gotten from Turks? The government they were citizens of? A Genocide, murder, rape, kidnaping, beheading, forced exile from their homes, and last but not least, a big fat ugly denial! Yes, I would love to be your friend.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

By provoking Europeans what will they achieve? Nothing, just a big NOTHING.

Provoking Europeans? hahaha... You're running out of comments, aren't you?

[kemal]

Hi Kemal,

You are going too fast again. I am still working on your previous posts. I admire your curiosity for research and I have to tell you that I have the entire Robert Bedrossian web on my computer, though I haven’t read everything yet.

Hi,

Amazing collection though!

I know that the Cilicians made a pact with the Mongols, don’t forget, this sort of thing has been going on forever. The thing is the Mongols didn’t keep their end of the promise and did not help the Cilicians when they needed it.

Not realy. It seems they kept their promises. Read the book. Let me quote from the book;

"I, who wrote this book, know all that is in the third part in three ways. oe60] Events which transpired from the time of Chingiz-Khan [first Emperor of the Tartars, oe60] to Monge-Khan [the fourth Emperor], were taken from the histories of the Tartars. [Events] from Monge-Khan to the death of Hulegu, [I] heard from my honorable uncle [King Het'um of Armenia, oe61] who was present at all of them. [With great diligence [he] retold [it] to his sons and nephews, and had us put [it] in writing for a remembrance. oe61] From the beginning of the reign of Abagha-Khan [g71] [son of Hulegu, oe61] to the third part of the book where the history of the Tartars ends, I speak as one who was present in person; and what I have seen I have recorded accurately. "

It seems it's not just a pact. Starting from the Cenghis- Mongke- Qubilai-Hulegu-Abagha...till Ghazan, the Mongol's made a strategic alliance () from 1253 to 1305, with the Cilician Armenians. Those rapes, murders,..., (well it's not fair to say maybe but...) seems to occur in some cases with the very presence of the Armenians. And the those that were raped and killed were the Memluks and the Seljuiks. At least don't blame those who suffered from those events as if they are the ones that are responsible. I mean its not fair. Right?

BTW, it's not the point. The point was it was a bloody history. There is no need to argue it. Those days, people were killing each other like flies.

Why did they make a pact? What would any country do in their place? They were being constantly invaded by the Mamluks, the Seljuks and the Byzantines among others. A small country being attacked on almost monthly basis (this is a manner of speech as one of your pals remarked, don’t take everything literally) had to find allies. I haven’t counted but when I was reading a summary of the Cilician period I think its safe to say they were raided more or less a hundred times in that short period.
Speaking of not taking everything literally, I just mentioned a series of names that are associated with barbarity in most countries these guys xxxxxled on so although I thank you for giving a short biography of these guys, you cannot change the public perception of these people.

It's not my intention to change the public perception. As I said, maybe you wouldn't name them when refering to the Turks from now on!

Let me give you an example: Here in Iran when someone wants to describe a really cruel person, they say: He is worse than Hitler, Chingiz, Teimur, Hulagu, etc. Regardless of what they did when they were not attacking and plundering.
Speaking of pacts, when the Mongols appeared on the scene, the Crusaders could have made a pact with them to destroy the Muslims. I have heard that "they chose the devil they knew over the devil they didn't" and together with the Muslims they confronted the Mongols. It's been said, had the Crusaders made a pact with the Mongols the religion of Islam would not exist today. I have only reported what I've heard. You do a research on this and keep me posted.

I will. Next I will provide some passages from the Persian crimes against the Armenians. Then the Byzantium agains Armenians. Maybe you can add few other names in the list after you remove a few... (I guess)

[Tongue]

I did not say prove or disprove, but I said it SUPPORTS your point. Sorry that I did not manipulate/censor my findings when I came up with something which supports your/Armenian point of view.

I misread the last line of your previous post, since I'm so used to you attacking me every time. My appologies.

What you complained about obviously changed in 1856 according to history books. The Armenian uprisings started after 1870s. What do you think upset Armenians so much in the period in between? Less taxes? Equality? More civil rights?

Things changed after 1870s? They sure did… to the worse! The condition of Armenians became even more frightening after Sultan took power in 1878. What equality? Are you kidding me? Armenians were never equal to Turks in Ottoman Empire. On December 28, 1895 Sultan ordered its gendarmes to set a church full of Armenians afire. Is this equality to you? civil rights? How about the massacres of Armenian Sassoun mountaineers from August 21st to September 4th 1894, again ordered by Sultan. Equality or civil rights? Sultan slaughtered Armenians left and right. There was no equality. There was no civil rights.

Lord Kinross, the author of several books on the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, has described how the organisers of the massacres exploited religious sentiments:

Their tactics were based on the Sultan's principle of kindling religious fanaticism among the Moslem population. Abdul Hamid briefed agents, whom he sent to Armenians with the specific instructions as to how they should act, It became their normal routine first to assemble the Moslem population in the largest mosque in a town and then to declare, in the name of the Sultan, that the Armenians were in general revolt with the aim at striking at Islam. Their Sultan enjoined them as good Moslems to defend the faith against these infidel rebels . . . Each operation, between the bugle calls, followed a similar pattern. First into the town there came the Turkish troops, for the purpose of massacres; then came the Kurdish irregulars and tribesmen for the purpose of plunder. Finally came the holocaust, by fire and destruction, which spread, with the pursuit of fugitives and mopping-up operation throughout the lands and villages of the surrounding provinces. This murderous winter of 1895 thus saw the decimation of much of the Armenian population and the devastation of their property in some 20 districts of eastern Turkey.


What do I think upset Armenians? I don’t know. What do you think upset the Armenians? Though, upset is an understatement. Is it so hard to see why Armenians in such horrifying situation would want independence?

[matteo]

I misread the last line of your previous post, since I'm so used to you attacking me every time. My appologies.

No problem, we all make mistakes. Thanks for acknowledging it.

Things changed after 1870s? They sure did… to the worse! The condition of Armenians became even more frightening after Sultan took power in 1878. What equality? Are you kidding me? Armenians were never equal to Turks in Ottoman Empire. On December 28, 1895 Sultan ordered its gendarmes to set a church full of Armenians afire. Is this equality to you? civil rights? How about the massacres of Armenian Sassoun mountaineers from August 21st to September 4th 1894, again ordered by Sultan. Equality or civil rights? Sultan slaughtered Armenians left and right. There was no equality. There was no civil rights.

Lord Kinross, the author of several books on the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, has described how the organisers of the massacres exploited religious sentiments:

Their tactics were based on the Sultan's principle of kindling religious fanaticism among the Moslem population. Abdul Hamid briefed agents, whom he sent to Armenians with the specific instructions as to how they should act, It became their normal routine first to assemble the Moslem population in the largest mosque in a town and then to declare, in the name of the Sultan, that the Armenians were in general revolt with the aim at striking at Islam. Their Sultan enjoined them as good Moslems to defend the faith against these infidel rebels . . . Each operation, between the bugle calls, followed a similar pattern. First into the town there came the Turkish troops, for the purpose of massacres; then came the Kurdish irregulars and tribesmen for the purpose of plunder. Finally came the holocaust, by fire and destruction, which spread, with the pursuit of fugitives and mopping-up operation throughout the lands and villages of the surrounding provinces. This murderous winter of 1895 thus saw the decimation of much of the Armenian population and the devastation of their property in some 20 districts of eastern Turkey.


What do I think upset Armenians? I don’t know. What do you think upset the Armenians? Though, upset is an understatement. Is it so hard to see why Armenians in such horrifying situation would want independence?

If I am not wrong, this quote is from 'Ottoman Centuries', which I also quoted regarding the Armenian massacres in Urfa (posting #47 in this thread). It is a comprehensive and relatively objective book, and everyone who is interested in this forum's issues should read it.

I am not knowledgeable enough to answer your question about what upset Armenians, but I can put down few factors by limiting myself to Kinross' accounts.

- Increased level of education & awareness among Armenians regarding their ethnic & cultural identity. This was achieved largely thourogh their own efforts, and through the efforts of Christian missionaries & educators. Therefore Armenians started to look down upon their Turkish co-citizens, and this was only a natural consequence, and cannot be judged as right or wrong.
This attitude, in turn, was perceived as a sign of ungratefulness and treason among many Turks, including those in the state apparatus.


- Insufficient implementation of 1856 reforms by Ottoman officials. While reforms which would undermine the state's authority (such as the over-extended right to own&carry firearms) were implemented, reforms aimed at integrating Christian citizens (equality before law, proportionate representation in state institutions etc...) were not totally implemented. Thus, Armenians with treacherous & terroristic intentions were rewarded while peaceful & law abiding Armenians were punished by the Porte.

No matter what, the period between 1856 and 1878 was a missed opportunity for the Ottoman state, as well as Turco-Armenian relations within the empire. We can certainly disagree about whom to blame for this, but it is undisputable that even that bit of goodwill & optimism was forever lost thereafter.