Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[imported_Fadix]

And The Result

Ape. Pictures taken from people apointed from the Ottoman autorities..., what proves they aren't Armenians? If they are not, what proves they were killed by Armenians?

While pictures like this taken by Germans and Austrians, Ottoman allies, were taken in the Armenian camps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armenianmassacres.jpg

The Germans had no reason to lie, while Ottoman authorities had.

[imported_Fadix]

Niles, Emory and Sutherland, Arthur, U.S. 867.00/1005, Princeton, 11 October 1919:
(Captain Emory Niles and Mr. Arthur Sutherland were Americans ordered by the United States Government in 1919 to investigate the situation in eastern Anatolia.)

In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are the Armenian quarters, as was evidenced by churches and inscriptions on the houses, while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed. Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed.

Ape with his copypast job.

I do have the report... let post it.

Van cities:

Muslim houses, 3,400 before wars, August 1919 3 left.
Armenian houses, 3,100 before wars, August 1919 1,170 left.

Bitlis cities:

Muslim houses, 6,500 before wars, August 1919 none.
Armenian houses, 1,500 before wars, August 1919 1,000 left.

Villages in Van (houses)

Muslim 1,373 before, 350 after
Armenian 112 before, 200 after(They say Armenian and mixed for others, that they concluded it after they realised it was impossible is another story)

Bayazit (houses)

Muslim 448 before, 243 after
Armenian 33 before, 33 after

I don't need to say why this is nonsense, but if you want to know, be glad to ask me. The “nonsense” nature of this report is exposed in the report itself. Let me quote the relevant part.

“When the Turkish army advanced at Erzindjan, Erzerum, and Van, the Armenian army broke down and all of the soldiers, regular and irregular, turned themselves to destroying Musulman property and committing atrocities upon Musulman inhabitants. The result is a country completely ruined, containing about one-fourth of its former population and one-eighth of its former buildings, and a most bitter hatred of Musulmans for Armenians which makes it impossible for the two races to live together at the present time. The Musulmans protest that if they are forced to live under an Armenian Government, they will fight, and it appears to us that they will probably carry out this threat.”

It was reported by(to them) them that Armenians actually managed to destroy ¾ of Ottoman population and 7/8 of the buildings. Do I need to continue, or the worth of this commission is clear by now?

Niles and Sutherland report was ignored by the Senate at that time for abvious reasons. The table he present, even McCarthy when he published them was trying to slowly pull them under the carpet because he knew it would defeat the purposes of a “report.”(adding that they reported what they “thought”/”believed”) When they claim that in Van for instance, there was nearly no Muslim villages left in 1919, and adding that the large majority of Armenian villages were left intact. Cevded himself in his dispatches at the war ministry, later followed by Halil himself reported quite the opposite, what to say about Nogales that claimed no Armenians were left. The tables anomalies clearly shows how Armenian villages in Van were repopulated by Muslims, and what was left was only devastated zones. Niles and Sutherland were under the custody of Ottoman authorities that were merely showing them what “they” wanted them to see. This can hardly be called an investigation. In 1919, there was no Armenian left in Anatolia.

In short, Niles and Sutherland were not there when the Anatolian Armenian population was destroyed, they were sent there when there was no Armenian left, yet the Turkish authorities have presented the villages and claimed them that Armenians were still living there and nothing happened to them, while the Muslim villages were destroyed, the claim is even not supported by revisionist literature that show clearly that there was praticaly no Armenian left there at that date, and even Gurun don't really deny that.

[imported_Fadix]

General Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 24 July 1921:
As demonstrated by the innumerable declarations, provocative pamphlets, weapons, ammunition, explosives etc., found in areas inhabited by Armenians, the rebellion was prepared for a long time, organized, strengthened and financed by Russia. Information was received on time in Istanbul about an Armenian assassination attempt directed at high ranking state officials and officers.

Since all Muslims capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenceless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Muslim folk in the region as well. The Armenian atrocities which I have witnessed were far worse than the so-called Turkish brutality.

Ape. “Schellendorf” more known as General Major Fritz Bronsart von Schellendorf, the Chief of Staff at the Ottoman General Headquarters and whom requested an emergency secret conference with Enver, Talaat Von Sanders and of course him, in which he concocted with Enver and Talaat a so-called Armenian rebellion and is accused of being one of the initiators of the anti-Armenian measures, and planning the replacement of the Armenian economical dominance from the East with the Germans. Bronsart is another evidence that the Armenians were NOT “relocated” because they were considered a threat for the Ottoman. Bronsart was the one proposing severe measures against the Armenian men in the Ottoman labour battalions, because he considered them as potential resistance against the Armenian deportations, which means that the Armenian deportations were not a consequences of any Armenian attacks, but rather the Armenian male were killed because they were considered as potential resistance to prevent the Armenian deportations, and that is why there has been no resistance reported preventing the “relocations.” Bronsart was as well the responsible of the replacement of Scheutner Ritcher, because Ritcher was interceding in the behalf of the Armenians.

But is this all about Bronsart? Is this all that must be said? I can discuss the matter, like how he was the leading figure and responsible of the German war effort on the Russian front by the intermediary of the Ottoman front soon during the war. Bronsart was as well a known racist, one of those “types” of Germans in the military with an Hitlerian mentality. The same NAZI and Holocaust denialists that accused the Jews for their own destruction. Let me now quote from Bronsart own words, in which he clearly refer to what happened to the Armenians as their murder, but accuses the Armenians and compare them to Jews: “Namely, the Armenian is just like the Jew, a parasite outside the confines of his homeland, sucking off the marrow of the people of the host country. Year after year they abandon their native land—just like the Polish Jews who migrate to Germany—to engage in usurious activities. Hence the hatred which, in a medieval form, has unleashed itself against them as an unpleasant people, entailing their murder.” (A. A. Bonn. Goppert Papers (Nachlass), vol. VI, file 5 (files 1-Cool, p. 4, February 10,1919).

[imported_Fadix]

Nogales part I

Rafael de Nogales, Four Years Beneath the Crescent, New York 1926, (English translation by Muna Lee):
After hostilities had actually commenced, the Deputy to the Assembly for Erzurum, Garo Pasdermichian passed over with almost all the Armenian troops and officers of the Third Army to the Russians; to return with them soon after burning hamlets and mercilessly putting to the knife all of the peaceful Mussulman villagers that fell into their hands. These bloody excesses had as their necessary corollary the immediate disarmament by the Ottoman authorities of the gendarmes and other Armenian soldiers who still remained in the army (probably because they had been unable to escape) and the utilization of their labour in the construction of highways and in carrying provisions back and forth across the mountains. The altogether unjustifiable desertion of the Armenian troops, united to the outrages they committed afterwards, on their return, in the sectors of Bashkaleh, Serail and Bayacet, did not fail to alarm the Turks and rouse their fear lest the rest of the Armenian population in the frontier provinces of Van and Erzurum revolt likewise and attack them with the sword. This indeed is precisely what happened a few weeks after my coming, when the Armenians of the vilayet of Van rose en masse against our expeditionary army in Persia; thus giving rise to bloody and terrible occurrences which, under the circumstances, might have been foreseen (p. 45).

Nogales did not actually witness what was said to him, Ottoman officials claimed this. And it takes some guts to try to take seriously those words of a mercenary that it is said was later researched for war crimes for what he did in the East, and when he placed his native countries population in his back, and how they never have forgotten his participating on what happened in Van. Isn't it ironic, that the crimes happened everywhere beside his army, and that he had nothing to say by trying to justify the cannonading of Armenian churches and monuments he was responsible of?

Regardless of that, here another relevant information regarding what did happen, from the same book.

pp. 136-137

”The presence of the corpses surprised me in the extreme, for the Ottoman civil authorities make it an almost invariable rule to erase evidences of their crimes very carefully; so that circling vultures and snooping scavenger dogs may not reveal to passers-by the site where the hyena gorges himself with the crescent stamped upon his brow.

There can be no doubt that the massacres and deportations took place in accordance with a, carefully laid-out plan for which the responsibility lay with the retrograde party, headed by the Grand Vizier Talaat Pasha and the civil authorities under his orders. They aimed to make an end first of the Armenians, then of the Greeks and other Christians, Ottoman subjects, in the Empire. We glean ample verification of this from the massacres of Sairt, Djesiret, and the surrounding districts, during which perished no less than two hundred thousand Nestorian Christians, Syrio-Catholics, Jacobites, etc., who had no connection whatever with the Armenians, and who had always been the Sultan's loyal subjects. Evidence also lies in the deportation of the Armenians of Angora, who were almost all Roman Catholics, preferring death to the apostasy of professing Mohammedanism, as had been done by the majority of the Gregorian Armenians, to whom the Turks had offered the same alternative.

As an illustration of the criminal indifference with which the Ottoman civil authorities contemplated the martyrdom and slaughter of the million and one-half of Christians who perished during those massacres, I believe it will suffice to record the phrase tittered by the Grand Vizier Talaat Pasha during a certain interview of his with the American Minister, Mr. Morgen-thau: "The massacres! What of them I They merely amuse me.”


p. 17

“However, upon the breaking out of the World War the massacres recommenced with such violence that, of the two and one-half million Armenians that lived in Turkey before 1914,I believe not even one-half million remain, including the three or four hundred thousand who dwelt in Constantinople and Smyrna, and who, by means of I know not what miracle, escaped the deportations and lived. Had the Armenians been more prudent and less ambitious, they would probably control Turkey today. But they set themselves to star-chasing and tried to subdue the Turks of the eastern provinces, with the fatal result that we know and, as good Christians, deplore; since the Armenians represented, in spite of their grave defects, a civilizing nucleus which might have served first as a bridge and then as a foundation for the pacific penetration of the Near East by Occidental civilization.”

Take a closer look at what he say regarding Armenians being responsible. Those were at the beginning of his work, but if you had actually read his work, you'd see how he contradict himself, and how it is obvious that he has tried to play with his memoirs to discharge him from his responsibilities, preventing the exposure of his psychopathic tendencies of cannonading entire villages and buildings. But people should not take my words for it. Let see if in fact Armenian started according to him, and if he has not manipulated his memoirs to hide his participation of the crime, actually one can understand his psychopathic tendency, just by reading the works first pages about how desperately he has tried to get in an Army to fight, like if war was a game, he finally was able to enroll as a mercenary, having 20,000 men, the bloody Djevded men has even joined Nogales men in Tokaragua(as he admit in his book). But as I said, no one should take my words for it, let quote from the book.

pp. 57-58

“Next morning, which was the twentieth of April, 1915, we stumbled, near El-Aghlat, upon mutilated Armenian corpses strewing the length of the road. One hour later we saw numerous gigantic columns of smoke surge up from the opposite shore of the lake, indicating the sites where the cities and hamlets of the provinces of Van were being devoured by flame.

Then I understood. The die was cast. The Armenian "revolution" had begun.”

He saw from far smokes and concluded that an Armenian revolution has started, recycling what those in the military with him were saying.

In his way to the scene, that is what he witness.

p. 60-61

“April 21. At dawn I was awakened by the noise of shots and volleys. The Armenians had attacked the town. Immediately I mounted my horse and, followed by some armed men, went to see what was happening. Judge of my amazement to discover that the aggressors had not been the Armenians, after all, but the civil authorities themselves! Supported by the Kurds and the rabble of the vicinity, they were attacking and sacking the Armenian quarter. Three or four Christian artisans were trying desperately to defend themselves against that mob of villains. But, breaking down doors and scaling walls, the assassins penetrated into the houses, and, after knifing the defenseless victims, obliged the wives, mothers, or daughters of those miserable creatures to drag their wounded out to the street by the feet or arms. There the rest of the scoundrels killed them, despoiled the corpses of clothing, and left them lying, at the mercy of vultures and jackals.

In spite of the lively firing that swept the streets, I succeeded at last, without serious accident, in approaching the Beledie reis of the town, who was directing the orgy; whereupon I ordered him to stop the massacre. He astounded me by replying that he was doing nothing more than carry out an unequivocal order emanating from the Governor-General of the province . . . to exterminate all Armenian males of twelve years of age and over. I, as a soldier, could not prevent the execution of this decree, which was purely civil in character, however much I desired. So I ordered the gendarmes to retire, and waited until the hell was over.

At the end of an hour and a half of butchery there remained of the Armenians of Adil-Javus only seven survivors, ...”

Let clarify what happen, it was reported that Armenians were revolting, this is what Ottoman officials tell him, he go there, and what he see? That it was the Armenians that were attacked.


And that's what he has to say regarding what the General Governor of Dyarbekir. Reshid had to say.

[imported_Fadix]

Nogales part II

pp.146-147

“Afterwards, through some exceedingly prudent but very explicit remarks, he gave me to understand also that, in regard to the extermination of the Armenians of his vilayet, he had merely obeyed superior orders; so that the responsibility for the massacres perpetrated there should rest not with him, but with his chief, the then Minister of the Interior, Talaat Bey— one year later the Grand Vizier, Talaat Pasha. Talaat had ordered the slaughter by a circular telegram, if my memory is correct, containing a scant three words: "Yak—Vur—Oldur," meaning, "Burn, demolish, kill." The authencity of that terrible phrase was confirmed by The Press of Constantinople after the Armistice with the publication of a certain telegram which the Ottoman commission engaged in investigating the massacres and deportations had discovered among the papers of the Committee of Union and Progress. In it the Grand Vizier, Talaat Pasha, ordered the local head of the Committee in Malatia to exterminate the Christians of that vilayet by the following means, word for word: " Anéantisses, ex-pulsez, etc. . . . j'assume la responsabilite morale et matérielle."

Coming to the quote Mr. Torque point to, it is surprising still that Enver doesn't say anything of that sort when he declared in February 1915: "I am giving you my thanks and using this opportunity to tell you that the Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman army are executing their duty in the theatre of war scrupulously, as witness my own experience. I wish you to communicate this to the Armenian nation, known for its complete devotion to the imperial Ottoman government, the expression of my satisfaction and gratitude." For the general reader, it is important to know that Mr. Torque quote comes from page 45, title of the Chapter: “Winter in Erzerum,” he was there at the end of February 1915, the hostility against the Armenian men in the army happened late 1914. Let see what happened in the region(Erzerum) before the event, according to German sources, in December 5, 1914, Schwarz report to Wangenheim after alerting the commander of the Fortress of Erzerum, General Posseldt, serious incidents. Some of them, February 1, three irregulars have taken the Armenian priest of Osmi(Erzerum plateau), and killed him, (probably to force the Armenians to react.) in the village of Tewnik(again in the Erzerum plateau), 12 irregulars chained all the Armenian males of the village and asked 100 pound, knowing that no one could find that much in the village, again probably doing that to get the women report the situation to the Armenian bishop in Erzerum and force Armenians to react. The Armenian bishop reported those and many other incidents to the Vali, who claimed that they will get rid of the irregulars. But obviously it did not happen, because they were placed there to instigate the Armenians to find a pretext for the officials to take measures against them. Actually, Nogales got his propagandas from the same originators of those propagandas that have proposed the deportations, even as soon as February 1914, during a conference lecture sponsored by the “Deutch-Turkische Vereinigung.”

Originator I said? Well, yes! Not only Enver and the Ottoman military but: “As for myself, General von Bronsart was throughout his stay in Turkey not only a generous protector but an excellent friend, of whom I shall always think with the sincerest and truest gratitude.”(p. 29)

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I'll answer the rest of the crap(which basically will be like was, copypasting my pervious answers to other revisionists) later.

[Tongue]

Mustafa, please visit the forum rules. If you want to remain on this site, stop copy pasting material from the filthy tallarmeniantale site and consider this your warning. That site is baseless denial propaganda, full of false statements, and the most twisted site I ever came across on the net and I don't want you pasting it's filthy materials to our forum. If YOU got something to say, say it. We're not interested in reading your pasted text from that filthy Turkish site.

[Hovik]

the "so-called" website "tallarmeniantale"

On an unrelated side note, did anyone notice that unlike every scholarly site related to the Armenian Genocide, that "so-called" website known as "tallarmeniantale" fails to paste any information about who has created it or how to contact them, they are afraid to reveal their identities? They are afraid to answer questions or opposition to their rediculous "so-called" website? Does anyone else find that funny? I mean, look at the Armenian National Institute's website for an example... I'll throw in this one just for good measure.

Even the dumbest of the dumb should be raising the question of credibility in such cases...

Hovo

[imported_Fadix]

You don't even know the commission, I have it, you don't even know the extend of the commission, it's purposes.

The commission had as purposes to investigate, how America could have supported financially the Armenian survivors of the Eastern provinces, and rebuild the infrastructures. When both arrived, there was no Armenian left there, the Ottoman Empire set a team to actually show the devastation caused in the region. Their purposes was to show that this relief was needed by the Turks and not the Armenians. The figures submitted to them were from the Ottoman authorities, claiming that Armenians have actually killed ¾ of the Muslim population and 7/8 of every Ottoman buildings. They submitted them list of destroyed homes, and have made them visit some of them as evidences and asked to so-called witnesses prepared for the purposes.

The commission purposes was even not that, the Ottoman authorities were so disgusting that they have even decided to loot the relief destinated to the Armenians, even though they have secured billions of gold marks from looting the Armenians and selling their properties.

You have even no clue of the commission, yet you attribute to it a credibility, just because it support your theses. You work backward, you consider credible only the materials that would support your theses, and not having a theses based on the materials available.

Nogales participated in the cannonading of the Armenian buildings in the eastern zone... they, and other Ottoman divisions were cannonading entire Armenian buildings(Nogales wrote that even in his book), and living the rest for the Muslim refugees. During that time, there was no Armenian left, neither in Bitlis, nor in Van, the two regions that the Ottoman authorities provided the lists of.

As my “usefulness.” I actually have read Ottoman history, and even from biased scholars, did you on the other hand read Armenian history? Don't worry, I think I know the answer, beside reading quotes, and equalling Armenians to backstabber's and traitors...

As for Ottoman Turkish, I know Arabic, I know the Ottoman script, Ottoman language, its calender, and have access to Turkish translators, in that regard I am more prepared to understand Ottoman than you. As for Ottoman newspapers, don't bring me there, because with the amount of materials that was published in it accusing the Ittihadists for having exterminated the Armenians, you'll probably refrain from answering.

As for Ape, the guy is a moron, and worthed his ape title, and you just worthed yours. I do not deny deaths of “humans,” I am not a revisionist and genocide denialist like you and your government are.

Truly yours.

[Tongue]

when u are copying from other ''independent'' sources its ok))) Any document which shows about armenians killing muslims and cooperating with enemy...is FAKE.... why?????? dont ask!!! read the rules!!! this is stupid game started by you...and the rules of this game is simple....rule 1: we need this genocide rule 2: dont listen the Turk remember we need this genocide....

See Mustafa buddy, this is why I don’t like you pasting information you know nothing about. Fadix replied to your ignorance with 7 great posts and you are silent. Why? Because you don’t have the slightest clue of what you posted and what it meant. I was waiting to see if you will have anything to say about Fadix’s posts, but just as I expected, you ignored everything and made a stupid 3 line reply about "Armenians killing Muslims" which I and many others have proven to you in mnay parts of this thread that was not and could not have been the case. You're full of knowledge-not, yet determine to deny the genocide! Maybe instead of wasting so much time on this forum by being a stubborn arse and repeating yourself, you should go study thoroughly the incidents of 1915 and by study I don’t mean read the tallarmeniantale site (which doesn‘t even give the author's name), I mean study real books, articles, reports, etc. so in the future, you’ll have something to say in discussions.



And yes Hovik, I'm sure we've all noticed that. A site pretending to tell the truth or "the other side of the Armenian claims" like he calls it, without an author's name or contact info!! or at least a comment area... Yet, it's amazing how many turks know nothing beyond what's written on that site!