Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[hahkp1975]

Funny Mentality

[QUOTE=Hellektor]

I have let known time and again that I'm no scholar, expert or historian. I have said dozens of times I have my own way of discussing subjects and I never said I'm 100% objective, no one can ever be. Whether you or anyone takes my arguments seriously or not, I don't really care. I don't know how many of my posts you've read, but it seems you also attack with a similar tactic as the Turks do: just quote/refer to one sentence in one post and judge and execute me accordingly.

OK, I take it back. Of course, not all Armenians should think exactly the same way, and I don't consider myself the spokesman for anyone. But whether you like it or not, whether ASALA are indeed agents or not (of course, those in the lower ranks and the sympathizers couldn't know), what they did was against the interests of the Armenians.

So if those in the lower ranks couldn't know, then you must be in the higher ranks because you are so sure of yourself when you declare to a turk responder that they are turkish agents...
Tell me now what was the tangible, specific harm that ASALA did to the interests of armenians?

No one said, you "got it wrong". It's not a crime, and surprise, surprise I'm not a Dashnak myself, but if it wasn't for Aram Manoukians, Njdehs and Dros of this world, this small 10% part of our historic homeland wouldn't exist today.

Wonderful...I partially agree...but we were talking about armenian terrorism that was brought up by a turk responder and I don't see why you relate the subject to what Aram Manoukian did 80 years ago...and then again...there is no single person, no single event (even Sartarabad) that were the sole reason for preserving 10% of Armenia. The subject is much more complex than that and there were many elements including the communists (soviets) that you have disregarded...and Antranik (that you failed to mention). Simplifying the issue is like talking like turks about the Genocide when they say that "it was war and many died".

When I was going to school, at the time of the Islamic Revolution, the first two years were strange times. We had never seen a communist in our lives in Shah's time, in fact they were the ones feared most by Shah's regime and he didn't pay attention to the religious fanatics…
But to our theme. Suddenly everybody was a communist, all my classmates and indeed a huge number of Iranian youth. Of course the communist groupings were crushed mercilessly after the regime established itself and the rest is history.
Communist newspapers mushroomed everyday, the guys in the class would hang posters of Lenin, Marx and Stalin on classroom walls, it was an unknown period of speech freedom never seen before in Iran. I don't know, but I hated those faces and they all looked evil to me. All the guys thought it was cool to hate the Dashnaks and it seemed the only activity they did was to smear the Dashnaks and nothing else...
Well, years went by and the impossible happened. The rotten, Russian Soviet Empire crumbled and Armenia also discovered her real heroes who had been slandered as traitors for seventy years. The Red-Blue-Orange tricolor, the heroes of the first republic, the uprising of February 18, 1921, all the Dashnaks who had been slaughtered in the Soviet dungeons, etc were given back the dignity they deserved.
For all those years the true patriots were being spewed upon and the real beasts like the Jew-Tatar Lenin and the worse than Turk, Georgian Stalin who shat in our spelling system to divide the nation and cut our country into pieces and gave it to the wolves in the east (Nakhijevan, Artsakh) and in the west (Kars, Ardahan, Ardvin, Surmalu) were being worshipped as the saviors of our nation...

I am not a Dashnak myself but I am not an anti-dashnak either. Going from one extreme to another is an armenian disease...those in Armenia hated everything that had to do with dashnaks and pre-soviet era..but after 1990 hey started to praise everyone who was anti-soviet and dashnak...I understand these 'fluctuations" in armenian mentality.But again you refer to history, as if our history stopped at 1920. This is exactly what Dashnags implied all those years but life goes on, there was a new history, that continued up until 1988 and then 1992 and then today. Armenian terrorism is part of that recent history. Ca't we analyze it without remembering Khanasor and Aram Manougian and Njteh???

Well, why do I say all this? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, ASALA were a kind of what the Iranians call Camel-Cow-Panther sort of grouping: On one hand leftist, on another hand anti-Dashnaks (in fact what they were doing was to make what the Ardaradad Martikner were doing look bad, although I personally deplore any sort of terrorism), and on another hand they presented themselves as patriots. Well, I don't like this sort of organizations and I believe any well informed Armenian wouldn’t like them either, hate me as much as you want.

We can't say that ASALA had a specific clear ideolofy or political thought. It was an immature organization combining many armenians of different tastes and backgrounds. The leadership maybe was leftist (that's not a crime either) and they had some anti-dashnag propaganda, but I do not take into consideration that factor when I evaluate this organization unless I was a factioalist fanatic (which i am not). Yes, they made many mistakes, but who is perfect as you said? One has to evaluate the sacrifice and passion and new methodolgy of these people in approachingthe armenian cause or various armenian issues. This is an area where we need to concentrate.

It's so that all the commies fled to the Capitalist, Imperialist USA they were xxxxting on their whole lives and it's a pity I can't meet anyone of them to ask what they think of Armenia now, with all its negative and positive sides.
What do they think of Aram Manoukian, Yeprem Khan, Kerry, Gevork Chavoosh, Serop pasha, Dro, etc now? The people they were throwing garbage all the time using the crappy commie pseudo-intellectual, class-struggle-and-social-evolution-babble, like they were bourgeois, nationalist, reactionary, SR, etc. and that all the peoples of the "Union" were brothers (when ethnic cleansing was going on in Nakhijevan...). Where the hell are those chameleons now?

I don't care about your commies of Iran.This issue has nothing to do with our subject. Instead of creating new heroes you are stuck with the old heroes and this sound like a broken CD..that plays the same old tune again and again. We need new ideas and revolutionary thoughts and new approach to evaluate the CONTEMPORARY socio-political events.

"As an Iranian proverb goes: winter will pass and blackness will remain for soot.


I haven't praised any attacks, so don't put words in my mouth, a thing none of the Turks on this forum did. Your "passionate" criticism just shows your "factionalist narrowmindedness", a disease we Armenians suffer from not so seldom.

Well, you praised Raffi Elbekian's "heroic act" ...which is the killing of the turkish ambassador in Belgrade in 1983.

Some people strap a bomb on themselves, "sacrifice" their lives and kill twenty or more people and tear scores to pieces, believing in a "cause" and believing they will be rewarded with eternal virgins in paradise... The more they kill, the more virgins they get.

Are you talking about Al Qaeda?

Serving your people (no one's perfect, everybody makes mistakes) or harming them is relevant.

Again you have appointed yourself as the custodian and "safe-keeper" of the armenian people. May God give you all the strength.

[imported_Hellektor]

Corny but Confrontational yet Confused Mentality Part One

OK, I take it back. Of course, not all Armenians should think exactly the same way, and I don't consider myself the spokesman for anyone. But whether you like it or not, whether ASALA are indeed agents or not (of course, those in the lower ranks and the sympathizers couldn't know), what they did was against the interests of the Armenians.

So if those in the lower ranks couldn't know, then you must be in the higher ranks because you are so sure of yourself when you declare to a turk responder that they are turkish agents...

You really do have a problem. Seeing your confrontational nature, I showed you the generosity to take back what might have caused your disdain, yet when I reread my post answering a hypocrite, the only "bad" thing I see in my response is to disown a defunct irresponsible terrorist group.
The fact you quote me out of context and do not take into account the cause that resulted in my response, the fact your immature sense of irony "accuses" me of being "in the higher ranks" shows your confrontational mindset.

Tell me now what was the tangible, specific harm that ASALA did to the interests of armenians?

Let me put your question to you, changing the word harm and capitalizing "armenians". Here, black on white (well, light blue with default forum settings, to make sure you won’t execute me):
Tell me now what was the tangible, specific good that ASALA did to the interests of Armenians?
An "immature organization" that didn't have "a specific clear ideology (correction is mine) or political thought" did so much harm that for instance, once when I was in Europe, in a classroom to be specific (this is an example for clarification so don't ask me "I don't see why you relate the subject" or the like), "small talking" with the classmates, introducing ourselves, one Greek Cypriote (of all people) woman, upon hearing that I was Armenian smiled and insinuated a remark that meant something like "yeah, those terrorist Armenians..." and that, somewhere in the early '90's, years after the last ASALA act.
You are offended and denounce me for your paranoid perception of me as pretending to be the spokesman for the Armenians, when only a handful of people will read my post. The harm: at most you can laugh at me and dismiss me.
I refuse to support the "immature organization" without a "clear ideology (read with a murky ideology in the least) or political thought" to act on behalf of the whole Armenian nation and commit blunder after blunder. As if the Orly disaster (8 innocent killed, 55 wounded, mostly Europeans) was not enough they perpetrated several other similar blunders, fortunately not as lethal, under other names in Europe.
You have to understand however, I don't deny that many members and sympathizers had genuine intentions. Maybe ASALA became a tool in the hands of our enemies unintentionally, I don't know, I'm not in the ranks.

Then, who said that being "anti-tashnag" is a "crime"? and that being "anti-tashnag" would automaically mean "turkish agent" ..??

...if it wasn't for Aram Manoukians, Njdehs and Dros of this world, this small 10% part of our historic homeland wouldn't exist today.

Wonderful...I partially agree...but we were talking about armenian terrorism that was brought up by a turk responder and I don't see why you relate the subject to what Aram Manoukian did 80 years ago...

After all the trouble I go through to be as clear as possible, if you are not capable of reading the post correctly, then no matter what I say you are going to quote me out of context, same thing the Turks do most of the time, and force me to waste my time again.

and then again...there is no single person, no single event (even Sartarabad) that were the sole reason for preserving 10% of Armenia.

Of course not, but I suggest you inform yourself (if you haven't already, so don't crucify me for having said this or at least include this parenthesis in your quote) more thoroughly on the subject. You shouldn't ignore Vratsian's, Varandian's, Ruben's works among countless others, written prior to or after the events, then you'll know the huge importance of Dashnaktsoutiun in relation to Armenians.
They have made mistakes as well, like trusting the Turks and according to the decision of the Bureau at the eighth General Assembly, advising the Armenians to remain loyal to the Turks in WWI, behave as faithful citizens of the Ottoman Tyranny and not to collaborate with the Russians in order to put an end to the miserable "life" of the Sick Man of Europe.
And lo, behold! the bastards twist history and cry and howl to the world that the treacherous Armenians stabbed "their" state in the back and turned against the Turks, when they were actually walking like sheep to the desert to roast, after the male population capable of defending themselves were recruited and executed.
A big mistake you might say, but these things happen even when an organization has a mature ideology. Taking responsibility for defending an entire nation is an enormous task and no one can claim had they decided otherwise, things would have gone better...

The subject is much more complex than that and there were many elements including the communists (soviets) that you have disregarded...and Antranik (that you failed to mention). Simplifying the issue is like talking like turks about the Genocide when they say that "it was war and many died".

You are kind of confused. Man/woman, the communists (read those who created the Russian Bolshevik Empire) have done more harm to us than the Turks. Wake the phuk up! The Jew-Tatar Lenin and the Georgian psychopathic monster Stalin bent over and took the Jew-Tatar Kemal's Turkish Delight in their butt and they offered Kars, Ardahan and Surmalu to the wolves in the west and Nakhijevan and Artsakh to the artificially created Frankenstein wolf in the east. They adulterated our spelling system and turned it into a bastard writing form without etymology to bring about a rift in our nation. And kudos to Antranik. He also made certain mistakes, though.

I am not a Dashnak myself but I am not an anti-dashnak either. Going from one extreme to another is an armenian disease...those in Armenia hated everything that had to do with dashnaks and pre-soviet era..but after 1990 hey started to praise everyone who was anti-soviet and dashnak...I understand these 'fluctuations" in armenian mentality.But again you refer to history, as if our history stopped at 1920. This is exactly what Dashnags implied all those years but life goes on, there was a new history, that continued up until 1988 and then 1992 and then today. Armenian terrorism is part of that recent history. Ca't we analyze it without remembering Khanasor and Aram Manougian and Njteh???

Remembering our heroes of the past is essential, referring to historical facts is essential, knowing that Turks cannot be trusted is essential. I for one have never “fluctuated". The school years example confirms this.
In another thread, as an example for our incapability to learn from history I say:
"There is this defeatist nature of Armenians that is the root cause of many of our problems. Armenians won the war and could also liberate Gandzak, but the treacherous, bogus nation who started it begged for cease-fire, which they also got. Alas and alack... Now they have shaped a distorted view of events, presenting Armenia as the aggressor and we are sitting, talking about returning the small piece of our historic homeland TO THE LOSERS OF THE WAR in return for NOTHING, in order not to give the goddamned, oil-greedy, "Christian" Westerners the impression we are not civilized."

We can't say that ASALA had a specific clear ideolofy or political thought. It was an immature organization combining many armenians of different tastes and backgrounds. The leadership maybe was leftist (that's not a crime either) and they had some anti-dashnag propaganda,

No comment.

but I do not take into consideration that factor when I evaluate this organization unless I was a factioalist fanatic (which i am not)

Good for you!

Yes, they made many mistakes, but who is perfect as you said? One has to evaluate the sacrifice and passion and new methodolgy of these people in approachingthe armenian cause or various armenian issues. This is an area where we need to concentrate.

A certain hundred and fifteen fokking year old organization has yet to commit a blunder half serious as Orly, committed few years after the founding of another certain organization. The damage done by this one "mistake" among many is much more than all the "damage" done by all the McFartys of this world; and that, respectable non-fanatic, "is an area where we need to concentrate."

[imported_Hellektor]

Corny but Confrontational yet Confused Mentality Part Two

It's so that all the commies fled to the Capitalist, Imperialist USA they were xxxxting on their whole lives and it's a pity I can't meet anyone of them to ask what they think of Armenia now, with all its negative and positive sides.
What do they think of Aram Manoukian, Yeprem Khan, Kerry, Gevork Chavoosh, Serop pasha, Dro, etc now? The people they were throwing garbage all the time using the crappy commie pseudo-intellectual, class-struggle-and-social-evolution-babble, like they were bourgeois, nationalist, reactionary, SR, etc. and that all the peoples of the "Union" were brothers (when ethnic cleansing was going on in Nakhijevan...). Where the hell are those chameleons now?

I don't care about your commies of Iran.

Good for you again.

This issue has nothing to do with our subject. Instead of creating new heroes you are stuck with the old heroes and this sound like a broken CD..that plays the same old tune again and again. We need new ideas and revolutionary thoughts and new approach to evaluate the CONTEMPORARY socio-political events.

It was an EXAMPLE to illustrate the hypocritical nature of some people harming their own people with their irresponsible conduct. And I don't create, I am not capable of creating new heroes. You might try your hand in it by using a certain defunct "organization" as raw material, and by blowing life into it like god almighty. The broken CD example might sound original, using "CD" for "record". Yet it doesn't bring luster to this corny and irrelevant remark.

I haven't praised any attacks, so don't put words in my mouth, a thing none of the Turks on this forum did. Your "passionate" criticism just shows your "factionalist narrowmindedness", a disease we Armenians suffer from not so seldom.

Well, you praised Raffi Elbekian's "heroic act" ...which is the killing of the turkish ambassador in Belgrade in 1983.

I didn't praise his act, so once again: don't put words in my mouth, something Turks in this forum haven't done so far (emphasis is mine):

Raffi Elbekian being one of it's members and indeed a hero, who out of desperation committed assassinations of several Turkish politicians to get the attention of the heartless world to our unspeakable suffering in the hands of your government. I personally don't like this sort of acts and am happy it ended soon.

Some people strap a bomb on themselves, "sacrifice" their lives and kill twenty or more people and tear scores to pieces, believing in a "cause" and believing they will be rewarded with eternal virgins in paradise... The more they kill, the more virgins they get.

Are you talking about Al Qaeda?

Do I need to give you lectures on literary devices? It's an ANALOGY, showing that we Armenians are not like that. We love life. Our dances, music, painting, sculpture, architecture, poetry and literature of all forms show that we care about the beautiful in life and do not need acts like Orly to further our cause.

Again you have appointed yourself as the custodian and "safe-keeper" of the armenian people. May God give you all the strength.

It seems you have been appointed as the defender of ASALA (Not RIP) and among over a hundred posts, most of them reaching the limit of 10000 characters, that I have written in this forum to confront the stubborn, brainwashed Turks, you have chosen ONE paragraph out of context and you are bickering with me over my opinion and making me waste precious time I can spend for a more useful purpose.

[hahkp1975]

It seems you have been appointed as the defender of ASALA (Not RIP) and among over a hundred posts, most of them reaching the limit of 10000 characters, that I have written in this forum to confront the stubborn, brainwashed Turks, you have chosen ONE paragraph out of context and you are bickering with me over my opinion and making me waste precious time I can spend for a more useful purpose.

Fine, I am not going to "waste" your "precious" time. You have a predetermined mindset that is the driving force behind your views and analysis. So, there is no point in bringing up arguments with you.

But at least let me mention one last point for the last time. I still say that it is very funny to highlight what ASALA did in Orly in 1983 and state that others (parties with over 115 years of history-who said that old is better?) haven't done such a "big" mistake (altough you mention Tashnag alliance with Young Turks prior to 1915 Genocide) ...today nobody remembers Orly, not even the french or your cypriot friend..except for turkish diplomacy who likes to use it as anti-armenian propaganda...but everybody knows that the Armenian Genocide could have had smaller effect if Tashnags and others organized resistance and anticipated the turkish plans instead of partying with them. Now you can see where the real harm is.I will not elaborate on this, as there is no point in "wasting time for arguments".

As for your other posts, I wish you good luck in your arguments with turkish responders.

[Tongue]

show me an official report of a discussion you've made about the genocide as u mention u did that b4 several times ..

i want to see official conclusion report of a discussion you've made in international area . .will u pls show me ?

The genocide is something that's been written in the history -- whether you like it or not, doesn't make much difference and it certainly doesn't change history. We don't need to discuss this in an "international area".... There is more than enough evidence and proof for a rational being to recognize it. We need to take more serious action for your government's denial. Getting other countries to recognize and put pressure on Turkey is the first step.

[Doberman]

show me an official report of a discussion you've made about the genocide as u mention u did that b4 several times ..

i want to see official conclusion report of a discussion you've made in international area . .will u pls show me ?

Official recognition:

COUNTRIES:

Argentina, Armenia, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, The Netherlands, Lebanon, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, Vatican City and Venezuela.

ORGANIZATIONS:

European Parliament

Council of Europe, Parliamentary Assembly

United Nations Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities

The majority of US states also recognize the Armenian Genocide, however there is no federal (country-wide) recognition.

The Canadian House of Commons voted to officially recognize the Armenian

Genocide. The federal government, in opposing the motion, did not express a position on whether the genocide took place.

International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) Report Prepared for TARC

The Association of Genocide Scholars

Union of American Hebrew Congregations

World Council of Churches

The Turkish Human Right Organization

The League for Human Rights

"Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile" (an unnoficial organisation with no parliamentary powers)

Permanent Peoples' Tribunal

TURKISH HISTORIANS:

A number of Turkish groups, particularly those in Germany, also recognize the Genocide.
Turkish historians who support the recognition of the genocide include:
Rajib Zarakolu, ali ertem, as well as halil berktay.

[Hovik]

Let us not forget the currently 38 of 50 United States that have recognized the Armenian Genocide. Only 12 more to go! Come on Armenians, keep pushing for justice. Think of the irony the world will look at the US with when all 50 states recognize the Genocide, yet the Federal Government still uses it to play Turkey like a puppet....

Alaska Montana Arizona Nebraska Arkansas Nevada California New Hampshire Colorado New Jersey Connecticut New Mexico Delaware New York Florida North Carolina Georgia Oklahoma Idaho Oregon Illinois Pennsylvania Kansas Rhode Island Louisiana South Carolina Maine Tennessee Maryland Utah Massachusetts Vermont Michigan Virginia Minnesota Washington Missouri Wisconsin

[Doberman]

show me an official report of a discussion you've made about the genocide as u mention u did that b4 several times ..

i want to see official conclusion report of a discussion you've made in international area . .will u pls show me ?

The term "genocide" was coined in 1944 by Raphael Lempkin, and what happened to the Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire during WWI was listed BY HIM as the primary example. Prior to 1944, the word "genocide" did NOT exist, and naturally the Armenian experience could not be labeled as such. Long before 1944, the Armenian experience was uniquely described as "HOLOCAUST".

Here is a quotation from Winston Churchill's book, "The World Crisis, vol. 5: Aftermath," published i n New York in 1929 on page 157:

"As for Turkish atrocities: marching till they dropped dead the greater part of the garrison at Kut; massacring uncounted thousands of helpless Armenians, men, women, and children together, whole districts blotted out in one administrative holocaust -- these were beyond human redress."

In his book "The Murder of a Nation" published in 1915, Arnold Toynbee uses the words "Armenian Holocaust" to describe the massacres.

September 10, 1895 in the New York Times "Another Armenian Holocaust "

In a book by Charles Pepper "The Life Works of Louis Klopsch" printed in 1910.

"An account came from Oorfa of the slaughter there. It was written by Miss Corinna Shattuck, an American missionary of Dorchester, Massachusetts. She was the Christian heoine of that awful event. Writing under the date of January 24, 1896, Miss Shattuck told this story of the massacres at Oorfa:"

"All day we had the smell of burning wool and cotton, bedding, etc., in the homes fired. Later, the indescribable, sickening odors from the great holocaust in the Gregorian Church, where some three thousand, having gone there Saturday night for refuge, perished."

G.P. Gooch writing in "History of Modern Europe 1878-1919" used the term "holocaust "for the wholsale massacre of Armenians in Trebizond, Erzerum, Bitlis, Kharput, Diarbekir, Sivas, Aintab, Marash, and Urfa in 1895.

Britain's wartime Prime Minister Lloyd George, writing in his "Memoires of the Peace Conference" (Vol 2 P. 811) refers to the "holocaust of 1915".

The above quotations predate the Jewish Holocaust. And before go on begging for "evidence" and sources and what not, I advise you to look into some sources for yourself before making a fool out of your self.

[Doberman]

haha you are pathetic my friend

lmao get a life my eastern neighbours .. get real for your sake

I'm laughing my ass off as well. Not at the fact of your utter idiocy (thats genetical feature of a Turk), but at your nick name. "Proud Turk"??? How can a Turk feel anything asides from Shame. Are you Proud of your murderous forefathers? are you proud of their barbaric nature?

[Hovik]

And before go on begging for "evidence" and sources and what not, I advise you to look into some sources for yourself before making a fool out of your self.

Anoush's Doberman,

Nice to hear your friendly post. I have read many of these books, you are telling me the very first things anyone learns about the Armenian Genocide, thank you for bringing back some old memories for me - did you just discover this?

We all know those quotes predate the Jewish Holocaust, congradualations - we see who is making a fool of themselves here...

If you are not an illiterate imbicile, you will read that my post specifically states that historical evidence from credible sources should be provided when a member makes a Jewish (or any other racial/national link) connection to blame for the Armenian Genocide.

And here the litte Doberman comes talking about how the word Holocaust was used before the case of Jews to describe Armenians. HAHAHA!

So tell me how your above post has anything to do with Jewish complicity in the Armenian Genocide???