Questions for Turks

[TurQ]

Crayzt

About 150,000 Turks died as soldiers during WW-II. Most of them were on Russian side some escaped and joined Germans to fight against. I personally know one Azeri(actually he died in 1996), escaped to German side. He is actually from Yerevan. After the war he couldnt return Yerevan because KGB was looking for him. He heard about executions of soldiers like him. After that he immigrated to US. (He knew fluent Armenian so he faked as an Armenian to get asylum permission in US).

There were others too in Cyprus and Greece they joined to British army to fight against Nazi occupation in Greece.

Turk's did not join hitler, Turks joined german army, they had no other choice. These were not ideological, it is just they had no other choice at all.

Turks saved may Jews who escaped from Greece and Italy. Turkey had some trade relations at those times, I think we sold them copper? They say the Germans used Jewish money to buy.

What are you talking about TurQ I have found no evidence to suggest that any Turks decided to join Hitler (Hitler labelled the Ukrainians and several other ethnic groups as 'Turks' BTW) to eradicate the worlds Jewry.
The Turks keep some gold plundered by the Nazi's big deal. Infact the Turks saved many many Jews especially those Jews from Salonika and other parts of Greece.

"Although Turkey abandoned its neutrality and joined the Allies shortly before the end of the war, Allied representatives sought from 1946 to 1952 to gain control of German assets estimated at up to $44 million and looted Belgian gold worth $5 million or more located in Turkey. Desultory negotiations stretched over several years. By the spring of 1951, the Allies had agreed to relinquish their claims to German assets in Turkey in return for settlement of the gold issue."

I think the gold should contribute to Belgiums fine for the racism suffered by Turkish immigrants in Belgium.

How about SWITZERLAND. They turned Jews away from their borders AND were the Bankers of the Nazi's. I think that is much worse than 44 million dollars worth of gold being kept by Turkey.

"[Is] "Switzerland, Neutral or Cowardly?" -- when they engage in business with Germany; when they become the bankers for the Reich; when they turn away Jews by the thousands or, when they think up the national reduction."

[TurQ]

I forgot to say something.

They were not regular Ottoman soldiers they were the volunteers, there was no army to save Bitlis. Arms were supplied. I can say this only for Bitlis defense, because I do not know about other cities(at least from my own resources). They captured the artilery of Ottoman soldiers who were retreating in disarray again in early summer. The army told them to evacuate Bitlis but they said they could defend Bitlis, and the officers told them to get the artileries before the Russians and Armenians capture those equipment, so that they could have the chance to defend the city.

OK - when did this occur? How many are we talking about who were allegedly killed by Armenians? How can you be sure it was Armenians? Are you aware that Special Organization irregulars were killing Muslims and pillaging villages in Eastern Anatolia and when Ottoman regular Army called for thie disbandment they blamed Armenians for these crimes. etc. I'm not saying that there was no Armenian violence of this kind - however one must differentiate between Caucasian Armenians who were with Russian units and Ottoman Armenians who were persecuted by the CUP. Much/most all of the Armenian violence was after the fact/after the Genocide was underway - and much was done in direct retribution. I'm not condoning such acts - but some of this is understandable. Also sporadic massacres during war are one thing - but depopulating the entirety of Anatolia and rounding up every person - able bodied or not - children as well - and slughtering them or forcing them on depth marches filled with depravities is quite another. There is no collorary of Armenian actions against Turks of this nature and even to suggest such is quite disingenuous on your part.

[maral_m79]

we are lying through our teeth

So, I was right huh ?

You are not Neutral as you claim. How did I know ...
Well, you already positioned yourself in the camp of the denialists or at best, revisionists.

I urge you to Change your name, or set it straight, if you have good intentions , and you are not aiming at "deceiving" people in this forum .

Because You are obviously not Neutral.

[Kharpert]

I guess this is just a typical example Armenian Propaganda stunts.

Riiight.

[ScythianVizier]

Sythian - while I do agree with some of your points here I disagree with much as well. I don't have time now to answer - nor will i for the next several days. suffice to say for now that I absolutly totally reject your notion of Ottoman Armenains as combatants and that CUP (and earlier Sultanate) actions taken against them were vendetta.

I understand that Armenians were in a bad situation when their population was split between Russia and the Ottoman EMpire - but those within the Ottoman Empire overwhelmingly remained loyal and innocent of any of this violence. Additionaly Armenian political groups such as the Dashnaks were allied with the CUP and it was the CUP who turned on them and turned on Armenians (who initially very publically rejoiced at the CUP's comming - in fact Turks and Armenians celebrated together - and this is documented). The issue of Turkic suffering in Balkans, Caucuses etc - is related to the Genocide - but tangentilly - as a contributor to the environment explaining to a great degree how passions against Christians in the ottoman Empire - among CUP elites (as you rightly point out came from many of these areas and many were not "pure" Turk) and among the Turkish peole themselves - who absorbed many Turkic refugees from therse areas (and many of these were deliberatly settled into Armenian areas (this had been going on for some time regarding Kurds and such - a deliberate effort to lessen the one time majority of Armenians in these places) - and these newcommers were quite negatively disposed towards Armenains - strictly because the were Christian - not because they were invloved in anything regarding violence. And your issue with Armenian rebbelion and such is vastly overstated. There was at best minimal and sporadic activity of this sort - and most - if examioned individually - was from communitites who had been pushed to the brink with no relief. And as I have stated - the Armenians pl;aced great faith in the CUP - considering the inclusive rhetoric that they rode in with - thus much political activity that may have been termed seditios ceased after 1908. Of course the massacres in Adana in 1909 where the CUP commitees played part in organizing and encouraging were the first signs that perhaps elements in the CUP were not so enlightened in their thinking. Anyway - of course the events prior and in outlying or former Ottoman arewas played a great part in crafting attitudes - I still contend that they are secondary, supporting and perhaps causative factors - and the Armenian Genocide and the cleanising of Christians from the Ottoman Empire - stand by itself as a far more complete and brutal episode than any of the more sporadic massacres and cleansing that occured by the Russians or by Chritian ethnics newly freed. And I have already presented that the dynamics of many of these episodes were quite different then that of the CUP/Ottomans who were acting against thier own subjects/citizens who were loyal - much of wehat drove the CUP was a racist pan-Tukic vision - where Armenains and Christians did not fit in. And your points concerning Hamshen are irrelevant as no one - not even themselves thought of themselves - or in some case even realized anymore that these people were in fact Armenians (and I have experienced this first hand with Hamshein I have met in Turkey as recently as 2 years ago). Likewise these claims of Armenians who convereted to Islam being spared are mostly incorrect. While initially this was allowed - later is was specifically forbidden and there are a great number of accounts of Armenians who had been converted and temporarily spared being "deported" and killed at later dates anyway. And that Ottomans saw things along religious lines and not strictly ethnic (thus much different then the German/Nazi world view) should be no surprise to anyone who is familiar with the history of the Empire and understands these things - thus the points you attempt to raise here anre in fact non-issues.

If you assess the history of mankind, then you would encounter various examples of crimes against humanity, particularly when exterminating (eliminating) a problem/dispute/threat becomes necessary for a group of people. It should be noted that the harsh policies of the Ottomans is evident in the dissolving era of the empire just like the dissolving era of many of its counterparts existed throughout history. However, the proof of a genocide involves certain presumptions about the circumstances existed before, during, and after the perpetration. The basic presumption (related to the existance of a genocide) is the strong tendency for killing, destroying, exterminating a group of people by abolishing their rights (freedom) to exist for good. In that sense, the Genocide of Jews demonstrates the hatred, discrimination, despise, and other means of abstract values that are defectively deployed against a certain group of people.

On the one hand, the social status of the Armenians (within the Ottoman Society) before the rise of nationalism lacks such crippled ideals, which existed in the case of Jewish Genocide. On the other hand, the loss of "Muslim Lands", and the shrinking size of the empire certainly led the Ottomans to consider the techniques used by the European states against the "Muslim Millet" of the Ottoman Empire. Such drive for establishing a modern state involved getting rid off certain ethnicities (and lands) that could cause problems (as it occurred in the case of Balkan states), which is called ethnic cleansing. Of course, the number of people died during the "slaughter and deportation" of the Armenians in Anatolia (during WWI) demonstrates tendencies what some might call "democide" or "genocide". Hence, a number that ranges between 800.000 - 2.000.000 people is not some figure that one could waive as the "casulties of war". However, wars and struggles for change certainly involve great losses for people, property, and other means of resources.

I believe that you have your point of view about certain events and your interpretation of history, and it is the rationale that you must hold on, which is fair enough for you and other Armenians living in/and out of Anatolia. However, please also note that your perception differs from the one that bulk of Turkish people think of as far as the Armenian issues are concerned. As some high percentage of people living in Turkey are the descendants of those migrants who were forced to live their land/property at an expense payed by the lives of their ancestors, they do not see or consider these events as "genocide", but it is generally deemed that a part of the war that was fought for survival as a nation (or a group of people) against the Christian nations. Since this perception is also applicable against the Russians, Greeks, Assyrians, Bulgars, Serbs, Cossacks, Romanians, Italians, and so on, it can be concluded that the crimes commited against the Armenians are not only directed against them, but should be considered as a part of the struggle existed between two different religions existing within the same environment. Today, we know that there are not many Christian Armenians in Turkey (about 100.000), but we also know that there are far more Armenian descendants in Turkey than the ones making up the population of Armenia. Those who converted to Islam during the Ottoman times makes the issue even more complicated as the Ottoman Muslims who killed the Armenians also consisted of Armenians who were Muslim. In that regard, the tragedies of Anatolia turns out to embody different elements that did exist between Serbs and Bosniaks, or the elements of a civil war. Perhaps, you might not like to see these people as a part of your culture, but then again they were a part of your culture until things got worse for the Ottoman Empire and its outdated "Millet System". I personally know many Armenians, and I must note that my relatives always had Armenians friends eventhough they knew about the crimes commited by the Armenian soldiers of the Russian Army during the WWI. However, it never stopped them from establishing friendship with the Armenians or encouraged them to despise their friends on the basis of certain stereotypes. Armenians were always a part of our lives, and we never felt hatred towards them.

In conclusion, I think you might name these events as you wish, but bear in mind that the people also have different views about certain facts of history, and in certain cases like the Armenian one, (which seems to be unique in my opinion). Frankly speaking, sometimes folklore of people is far stronger than any evidence that one could come up with, and in Turkey, there seems almost no place for recognizing a "genocide", particularly if you assess the mindset of ordinary people who only wish better for all.

[1.5 million]

SythianVizer - I understand your points and they are reasonable ones for discussion. However I need to point out a few things - it is not just Armenians who consider that they experienced Genocide - it is a whole gamet of scholars and historians and it is pretty much an accepted thing - its prettymuch only Turks and those directly funded by Turks that deny that it was a Genocide. Also - the deliberate CUP attempt to ethnically cleanse Armenians from Anatolia meets all definitions of genocide and in fact was the basis for the term/concept of Genocide in the first place. Again too - you are making/inventing/reiterating rationale and excuses that the CUP was only doing what it had to do etc - well I strongly reject this. CUP got Turkey into the war - CUP renegged on promisses to Armenians and destroyed the goodwhill atmosphere that had developed between Armenains and Turks - CUP is responsible for this mess just as Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust - and who - but extremely politically suspect motivated people are apologists for Nazis? You can say what you will about the mistreatment of Turks/Muslims wher Christians were able to rise up and free themselves and you can damn Russia and Russians all you want - I sympathise - believe me I do - however there are additional dynamics to these situations that when applied to the Armenain Genocide argument here become overly simplified with much lost (and the fact of Otoman persecution of Christians during/before this time needs to be understood/accepted as well....in addition to mismanagement and collapse of Empire...). What is relevant is the role in these struggles and in the collapse of Ottoman Empire in forming attitudes where such extreme inhumane measures could even be considered in terms of dealing with a group of people. Yes - we need to understand this environment and why a group such as the CUP could take the positions and act as they did and why the Muslims in the Empire could so easily be convinced to join in etc (even much more so then the German civilians did in WWII - though many - even in occupied nations assisted against Jews..) - but the point is that there is no rational justification for such barbaric acts - and you must accpet that the "solution" to the Armenian issue was barbaric and inhumane and could have no rational (or military) justification. It was a political move - but not just any type - one that was a henious crime against humanity and against the Armenians - and there is nothing that anyone can bring to this debate to justify it - nothing at all. And most of what is brought up - blaming Armenian "gangs" and claiming that Armenians were seditious and in league with the Russians is so overblown and ultimatly false even if some instance of such occured - in no way can the violent and inhumane solution be justified (annhilation - not "deportation" as it was the former - planned and enacted and resulting). The result: Genocide - there can be no question concerning this verdict.

[1.5 million]

Let me add - I appreciate why Turks have a difficult time - on a great many levels accepting this charge of Genocide - and it does begin with the memory of the terrible times and terrible things experienced by Turks prior to during and after this period - I understand these things and I understand how such tragedies have influenced (and rightly so) the Turkish mindset...however - this is the issue of singular perspective...and while one day hopefully all can understand as well the issues as the Turks see it - at least in part - the fact is that this mondset is causing an extreme mental block on the part of the Turks - and the Government position only reinforces such - and this is causing Turks and Turkey to block out this great tragedy that was the Armenian Genocide - an event that truly was the defining even of WWI - just as we see the Holocaust as the defining event of WWII - and meanwhile consider the Armenians - nearly all of whom has had family that has suffered and that nearly 3/4 of all our people in Anatolia have perished and that our nation in our heartland is gone...meanwhile Turks continue on in Anatolia and meanwhile this great tragedy is denied and often with great vehemance....

[TurQ]

Vezir I prefer to use the word "perception" instead of "view". I personally think the Oral history should be studied(which is very poor in Turkey) on this issue. I believe it will help a lot for us to fill some gaps.

In my opinion it is pretty much very simplistic to explain this with CUP's nationalistic views. I cant discount the effect of CUP policies, but to explain everything with CUP is not realistic.

Just a simple example, this is from my great grand dad. HE was soldier fighting against the Russians(this is 1914). He says in the army there were Armenian officers(Yedek Subay, I dont know how you would translate this into English). At one certain time in those units they used to find scores of Ottoman soldiers killed in their tents during the night, either poisoned or stabed to death. He describes these horror scenes happening each morning.

They were sure that this has something to do with those Armenian officers, at least some of them were tipping the Russians or Fedayins, kill those soldiers. Claiming that there was no relation with Caucusian Armenians and Russians with the local Armenians is simply not true. I am not saying this for ordinary Armenians, I am saying this for revolutionaries/rebels. After all Erzurum born Antranik Pasha(Ozanyan) was appointed as a Russian General to Armenian rebel groups formed by Eastern Anatlian Armeians. He fought against Ottomans not only in Eastern Anatolia but during the Balkan wars in Edirne killing driving Turkish villagers(1912-13).

But my Great grand dad/granddad had very close Armenian friend which he calls him friends as family. And this is late 1940s, early 50s. My dad remembers him as "Kalayji Dayi" or the "Ermeni Dayi", the Kalayji uncle or the Armenian Uncle(this is used a word to show respect to the elderly,in this context it is not used to show a family relation). My great grand dad had only one intention to save his family and the muslim villages from Russian aggression, after the Sarikamis tragedy(he was among few thousands survived the deadly winter night) and desrted the army to get back his home town and joined the local groups to defend towns/villages.

We can speak about historical facts on and on, but it boils down to the fact that how those people fighting in the field or decision makers percieved the threat. What were the drivers, only racism is the explanation? What about those local people. I know friendly relationships of Armeians and Turks in Sivas in 1920s, so these local Turks and Kurds turned into Armenian hater in 1914-15 and become friends again after 1918?

Perhaps, you might not like to see these people as a part of your culture, but then again they were a part of your culture until things got worse for the Ottoman Empire and its outdated "Millet System". I personally know many Armenians, and I must note that my relatives always had Armenians friends eventhough they knew about the crimes commited by the Armenian soldiers of the Russian Army during the WWI. However, it never stopped them from establishing friendship with the Armenians or encouraged them to despise their friends on the basis of certain stereotypes. Armenians were always a part of our lives, and we never felt hatred towards them.

In conclusion, I think you might name these events as you wish, but bear in mind that the people also have different views about certain facts of history, and in certain cases like the Armenian one, (which seems to be unique in my opinion). Frankly speaking, sometimes folklore of people is far stronger than any evidence that one could come up with, and in Turkey, there seems almost no place for recognizing a "genocide", particularly if you assess the mindset of ordinary people who only wish better for all.

[1.5 million]

TurQ - OK - I understand your points - but really I don't quite buy them per se. This issue of Turkish soldiers being killed in the night by poisoing etc - come now - give me a break - this happens night after night - and Armenians are blamed (but noe aprently caught) - etc - I don't buy it at all. This is propoganda...there were calims of Armenain bakers poising food of Turkish troops during this time and whole groups of Armenian bakers were slaughtered before it was determined that these charges were just untrue...and you know Turkish soldiers kept dying...something called typhoid may be an explanation - I don't know - but perhaps youmay want to consider...eh?

So Antranik didn't like and fought against Turks -OK - I guess this justifys killing every Armenian women and child after delibertly taking all the men away (and kiliing them seperatly). Yeah OK

The reasons for the animosity (rational or otherwise) against the Armenains by Turks are well known and well documented. Do you relly think we are just making these things up? There is extensive anti-Armenian racist literature and much else...anyway - OK - I am awaiting your next series of excuses/justifications...oi

[TurQ]

1.5 Million
I personally find talking the number of deaths very merciless. But I would like to say this. Turks and other Muslims have nowhere to go other than Anatolia, they either persihed or remained in Anatolia, or immigrated to Anatolia. In Armenian-Turkish conflict yes Armenians suffered more, may be a lot more. But in the greater conflict, with the Russians, French British Bulgarian etc the sufferings Of Muslims is no less than Armenians. And for those ordinary people who lost thier family members the Russians, Armenians, Greeks, British French were all the same. As I said before the Hamidiye Troops 100,000 strong army perishedin Balkans and they wer formed mong eastern Anatolian muslims(mostly Kurds), they made this clear connection with Armenians and Russians(it is fact or not it was really high scale or low scale this is not important, the perception was enemy is enemy)


1.5 as I said I find it realy merciless to talk about number of human lives, but I just let you search how many Muslims perished during WW-I in Anatolia and get the demographics of Anatolian Muslims after ww-I. Let me just say a statistic. The male population made 1/3s of the remaining population in Anatolia. I am sure Armenian demographics is at least the same or lower, I dont deny that. I simply say Turks and Kurds remained in Anatolia because they had nowhere to go.

But again it is for me hard to believe the explanation as being "the conflict was based totally on ethnic and religous difference". I have read stories of first Turks immigrated to USA in 1920s. They were doing business via their Armeian friends who were already immigrated to USA, this particular family was selling carpets with his Armenian friend. And this is 1924. Even right after these bloody events, I do not think the avarage people thought these events as a religous or ethnic war.

Let me add - I appreciate why Turks have a difficult time - on a great many levels accepting this charge of Genocide - and it does begin with the memory of the terrible times and terrible things experienced by Turks prior to during and after this period - I understand these things and I understand how such tragedies have influenced (and rightly so) the Turkish mindset...however - this is the issue of singular perspective...and while one day hopefully all can understand as well the issues as the Turks see it - at least in part - the fact is that this mondset is causing an extreme mental block on the part of the Turks - and the Government position only reinforces such - and this is causing Turks and Turkey to block out this great tragedy that was the Armenian Genocide - an event that truly was the defining even of WWI - just as we see the Holocaust as the defining event of WWII - and meanwhile consider the Armenians - nearly all of whom has had family that has suffered and that nearly 3/4 of all our people in Anatolia have perished and that our nation in our heartland is gone...meanwhile Turks continue on in Anatolia and meanwhile this great tragedy is denied and often with great vehemance....