Questions for Turks

[TurQ]

And can you blame avarage Turk not knowing about your sufferings?

Although people who lhave lived in eastern anatolia know, but can you blame those who dont know? And the demographacs also change drastically, with the immigration to bigger cities, all these oral history is dissapearing. This is why I am encourging average Armenians to have friendly relations with Turks and tell their stories. THis is why I am against pre-conditions.

[Originally Posted by 1.5 million
OK - yes there is value in you sharing your grandfather's experiences and thoughts and your (Turkish) perspectives - I understand that many/most Armenians are clueless concerning many of the things you speak and why....but just the same - much comes accross as justifications - and I cannot accept that. Also much continues to come accross as insensitivity to our losses and rejection of our experiences...so how can you expect us to react positively to what you are presenting...?

[1.5 million]

OK TurQ - I have no issue with your last two posts - none whatsoever - but yes - based on some of your previous pots I think that your position did need some clarification.

I once was at a very nice hotel bar in Ankara having a very pleseant and involved discussion with the (cute) barmaid where she was asking me why my interest in Turkey and I mentioned that among other things some of my family was from Anatolia - etc - and when she asked me if I was Turkish and I replied that no I was Armenian - well at first she didn't know what I was talking about - not even when I said "Ermeni" - so she asked an older bartender - and I could see him explaining....well she never came back over to talk or even ask if I wanted anohter drink - in fact she didn't even look at me again...needless to say her tip suffered...

[TurQ]

That's interesting, she lost the tip.

My dad had Armenian class mates (when he was in 7th and 8th grades). THis is in Malatya. He says when he was in elemantary school and high school northern part of Malatya city center was populated by a large Armenian community(this is 50s-early 60s). Recently I learned that Hrant Dink is also Malatya native(born there). I wonder after the republic established how many Armenians left in those cities.

I once was at a very nice hotel bar in Ankara having a very pleseant and involved discussion with the (cute) barmaid where she was asking me why my interest in Turkey and I mentioned that among other things some of my family was from Anatolia - etc - and when she asked me if I was Turkish and I replied that no I was Armenian - well at first she didn't know what I was talking about - not even when I said "Ermeni" - so she asked an older bartender - and I could see him explaining....well she never came back over to talk or even ask if I wanted anohter drink - in fact she didn't even look at me again...needless to say her tip suffered...

[1.5 million]

My great-grandparents on my mothers mothers side (the ones that survived the Genocide) continued to live in Istanbul until the early 1960s and my Great Grandfather only left after my great Grandmother died. Of course they had a special status due to their wealth and his position with the Armenian church (there is of course a great deal more to their fascinating story) - anyway, of course, he was prevented from taking any possessions or wealth out of the country with him - but he left and came to the States anyway - because that is where all his children, grandchildren and by then great-grnadchildren had ended up and he had not even seen in Children in over 40 years...

[maral_m79]

1.5 Million my brother ....

Give him a break ... TurQ is not ready yet to describe the events as Genocide, it's obvious, he LIVES in Turkey for God's sake ... Even if he think that it was a Genocide he's not ready yet to take the courageous step of confronting himself with that ... As much as he's trying to find a compromise between the 2 points of view, to reach some intermediate point of view, he will realize after a while that he was waisting time trying that ...

There is no intermediate solution or compromise TurQ, you either simply accept facts as they are , or immerse yourself in the denial ...

I don't want any answer from you TurQ, but when you think about what I said, you'll realize that what you are trying to do is simply not possible ...

[1.5 million]

There is no intermediate solution or compromise TurQ, you either simply accept facts as they are , or immerse yourself in the denial ...

Actually his position is a bit more complex then just this. He is accepting that essentially a "genocide" occured - even if he won't call it such - but he is contending that the Turks had experienced the very same sorts of things at the hands of the Russians and Balkan Orthodix - and there is certainly some validity to this position - and he is contending that if the CUP did not "cleanse" the Armenians that the Armenians (with Russian backing) would have cleansed the Turks (in the East) or at least that the CUP perspective was that this was likely/possible - based on the past experiences of Turks in the Balkans and Cucauses - thus he legitimizes what was done as a kind of pre-emption and tit for tat for outrages experienced by Turkics in these other areas commited by Orthodox Christians. Armenians are often either unaware or discount these other events - I do not and I understand them - however I find great fault with this conclusion that the barbaric actions taken against the Armenains had any real justification based on anything the Armenians ever did (or that such a policy/barbaric actions could ever be justified). I also contend that the wholescale take no prisoners cleansed earth deliberate intent to wipe Armenians from the map policy of the CUP was orders of magnaitude more sever then experienced by any peoples in modern times - including even massces experienced by various Turkic groups in preceeding years (which in the case of the Balkans were preceeded by vast ottoman massacres of indigenos Christian groups. Likewise - what Turks such as TurQ fail to accept is that this campaign against the Armenians had been ongoing for several generations and the Armenian sedition was in fact very localised and non-threatening to the Empire as a whole. Armenians were pushing for reform certinly - and they were doing so at a time when the Empire was hard pressed and not that interested in granting it. All of these facotrs played into the build up of animosoty against the Armeninas and these factors -combined with the Turkish racialism, the traditional animosity (and degrading) view of Muslims towards their Christian "subjects" and the greed and scapegoating factor (remember as well that the CUP moved against the Greeks and specifically through thier campaign of "the national Economy" worked against them and Armenians economcally - in addition to extreme harrasment and massacre - all prior to WWI). In any even all these facotrs need to be understood - however none of them truly changes the fact that the CUP commited a deliberate Genocide of the Armenians of Anatolia - and that Turks and the Turkish state have been shameful of their denial since that time to the present.

[Gavur]

Turks are the only race that is geneologically non-descript in this conversation.
Armenian race goes back all the way back to Noah
I think so does the Kurds.

[Hovik]

Again I ask WHO. The Turks are strong this force you talk of wont be military force. This vocal pressure will amount to nothing. Its not as if the whole world will isolate and place embargoes on Turkey till it recognises genocide. I suppose that is the typical Armenian dream but it wont happen. Armenians keep on saying that "Turkey will be forced", are you to have me believe that the Armenians who believe this are schizophrenic individuals that think external forces will intervene against the Turks on their behalf

Crazyt, did you eat paintchips as a child? I never argued WHO (if anyone) might force Turkey to recognize, only if it is RIGHT to obtain recognition by force.

Oh you tell me not to spin what I said but why did maral turn what I said about the Turks and Kurds into the Armenian Genocide what I said was not in the context of the Armenian Genocide. I mean where the even Armenians left in a desert to die? Or where they taken to the town Alepo.

I think she brought a very good point and I think you avoided it. Where there Armenian left in the desert to die? PLEASE READ A BOOK, ANY BOOK on the Genocide! Aside from the literary eye-witness information attesting to those led to death in Dier-el Zor Desert en masse, I like many have a personal connect. Two female members of my paternal great-grandfathers family were led in the deportations into the desert where they died. They were NOT taken to the town Alep.

How about a trade I will say yes the events constitute Genocide if Armenians say yes that the events surrounding the expulsion and illegal occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh constitute Genocide.

It is also illegal for Azerbaijan to massacre its Armenian citizens... isn't that what started the war for Karabagh's independence?

Here is two quotes from the CIA factbook.

"over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands and Armenia"

"about 230,000 ethnic Armenians were driven from their homes in Azerbaijan into Armenia"

and this is from the CIA factbook. Many other (non-Armenian) websites report this figure. You should read outside the box consult neutral and other non-Armenian resources. Or are you to have me believe that the Armenians are right about the figures you state and everyone else is wrong about it their figures.

ohhhhhhhhhhh, the HOLY CIA factbook, if they told me I had two bungholes should I believe them? Sorry the CIA is not my first source of information... But they sure were a first source for the US Government when we needed justification for the Iraq war, and look what they provided us with... Turkey criticizes the CIA all the time for their unjust "justification" of the Iraq war, is it just you or do most people in Turkey pick and choose which information they take from the CIA as being credible?

Do you trust the OSCE MG? I do, at least more than the inept and corrupt CIA!
Why don't you read what they had to say in their May 17,2005 Fact Finding Mission Report:

"In light of these conclusions, we note that the total number of settlers is insignificant given that there are over 400,000 Armenian refugees as a result of the conflict. "

Maybe you should do some basic reading before you present these incorrect figures.

Well, with your foot planted firmly in your mouth, you can see that I did do some reading and have a document (OSCE MG Fact Finding Mission Report 3-17-05) that substantiates my numbers. Do you feel stupid now? If not you should. Also although I have not yet compiled a list of books that I have read on the Armenian Genocide or the Nagorno Karabagh conflict, I have compiled a list of SOME of the books I have read on Ottoman History (at the bottom of this post). While I support life-long learning (especially through reading), and recognize that what I have studied is extremely minute in comparison to the information the world has to offer - I would guess that contrary to your above statement I HAVE done some "BASIC" reading... now it's your turn...

What makes you think I love the Jews in the first place. I'm not even a Turkish citizen.

maybe you don't, but the Turkish nation does...

In anyways the Jews were the victim of a Holocaust perpetrated by the Germany.

Ironic that Germans (your partners in the crime of Armenian Genocide) recognize it as GENOCIDE, isn't it?

The Young Turks perpetrated the Armenian Genocide and they are all dead and buried theres no-one to claim anything from now.

They are dead true, but the crime of denial continues, and it's perpetrators are very much alive. We will continue to pursue justice through these new criminals.

Or should the Christians claim compensation against the Jews for killing Jesus.

You are going to compare the murder of 1 person to the murder of a nation? It doesn't matter the crime, justice must be delivered.

Awww what a shame the deed certificates used in Turkey have changed now. Your old deeds are of no use now.

I am sure thats not what they told Turks when they changed their old deeds to new ones right? I am sure those who held old deeds were issued new deeds right? Use a little common sense... New deeds would have to be issued

OK I made a mistake I should have written the Ottomans but of course standard Armenian response, that is to twist and destort anything that a Turks says. Don't worry I know about history. Just like the UK knows about history, thats why they don't recognise the Armenian Genocide.

Yes you made a mistake, you admit it but then you try to make me your scapegoat, why is that? I didn't twist or distort what you said! I pointed out that you were either making an error, or going against what most Turks say. Its enough to accept responsibility in the error and move on, you don't need to try to blame all Armenians for your shortcomings...

And don't flatter the UK or Turkey, they know damn well about history (isn't that why this week they rejected Turkeys demands to throw out the 'blue book' which documents the evidence of planned extermination of Armenians???) They also know damn well about the BRITISH PETROEUM owned Baku-Tblisi-Ceyan pipline that is to open in Turkey next year right???They are not passing a Genocide bill yet for obvious OIL - RELATED reasons.

Lol you wont be returning to Western Armenia, however your are free to live in Eastern Turkey. You can even move there tommorrow.

Well, thats to be seen, and if we did move there tomorrow our safety or rights could hardly be guaranteed, but you know what always amuses me? How Turks forget that borders change all the time, what you took from someone yesterday can just as easily be taken from you in the future. Why do you forget this? The Armenian Empire was large and mighty once, and is no longer - Likewise the Turkish empire is large and mighty now - but what goes up must come down... or are you blind to this?

Well Turkey LEGALLY owns Eastern Anatolia. Maybe some brave Armenians should decide to rebuild their lives in Eastern Turkey if they view that land as theirs. Its not as if every single ethnic minority is targetted in Turkey. Just as long as you don't have Armenian flags hanging out your property in Eastern Turkey and you speak Turkish (or non-Armenian) then you'll be fine.

Yeah brave and stupid. It isn't the time for that now. As you further solidify we wouldn't have any rights or freedoms under Turkish rule... and surely would not be safe.

Well I mention Turkey because there is no Ottoman empire anymore. So Armenians have to follow Turkish laws if they wish to make claims on Turkish sovereign land. I would pressume the Turkish government will claim the compulsory 40% of any returned property. Thats if we ever get to that stage.

Ha! Thats rich. At this point it doesn't matter what who gets or doesn't get. We need something far more important than that now : Recognition and Reconciliation! Lets start with that and let the rest work it self out when we get there...

[1.5 million]

I can see why Turkey will not admit anything.

Really its just a matter of time...

Thats Standard Armenian "shut up, listen and accept everything overwise your a Holocaust denier".

Well in effect "you" (those who deny the Armenian Genocide) are in the exact samne category as deniers of the Holocaust - each is equaly vile...and of course this whole reponse of yours is "the standard Turkish make any irreelvant and unsupportable excuse possible because of your cowardice" response - typical shameful hateful...

Armenians still deny that armed Armenians were killing Turks and destroying the Ottoman war effort.

...armed Turks/Kurds (special organization/chettes/war deserters) were killing Turks (in even greater numbers than any Armenian groups) - during this very same time...perhaps Turks should have genocided themselves... Turkish allies - the Germans - who were in effect integrated into and even leading the Ottoman Armies on the Russian front - report that Ottoman Armenians were not at all in revolt (and the german Ambasador reported back to Berlin that Armenian groups had given up national aspirations since 1910) - and additionally outside of Van - a desperate act on the part of Armenians to prevent the fate that was befalling Armenians in the surrounding areas and of course as we now know in hindsight that all Anatolian Armenians were doomed - the Armenians in Van acted to defend themselves. It should be noted that prior to any hostilities the Turkish governer Jevit had Armenian leaders of Van killed after he had invited them to parley (and this certainly gave the Armenians of Van a clear signal as to how they would be treated) - additionally there are no credible reports of any Armenian 5th column activity that had any effect whatsoever on the conduct of the war - neither still - in a land supposedly crawling with Armenian insurgents - was there a single reported incident of even one lightly guarded Armenian "deportation" convoy intercepted and rescude by Armenian irregulars...and so on and so forth - so these charges against the Armenians that you refer to are just so much empty smoke...and the only thing destroying the ottoman war effort was the Ottomans themselves...

Armenians also reject the idea that during ASALA's reign of terror across the world, Armenia's biggest export was Terrorism and Armenia's biggest import was Foreign Aid right now Armenia's biggest import is Foreign Aid and Armenia's biggest export is immigrants.

Get real - a$ehole. First of all there was no state of Armenia during the time fo ASALA and there was no sponsorship/ownership of ASALA by Armenians - entirely the opposite. Besides this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Genocide. That you (and other Turks) would even bring up such a thing is testament to your desperation - that you have no real argument concerning the Genocide. And the only thing I have to say in response to your critiscim of Armenia - a small landlocked resource poor state attemping to recover from the Soviet legacy, attempting to overcome Turky's economic warfare/blockade - and still attemtping to overcome the fact that Turkey/Ottoman Empire slaughterd the better part of the Armenian population in the world and very specifically wiped out the best and brightest - the only thing I have to say to you when you show your callousness and hatred to be pleased about suffering and misfortunes of others - and my Armenian cousins in specific is....Azerbaijan hahahahahahahaha - a$hole!

Armenians also deny that General Dro joined their fellow Aryan's the Nazi's and killed loads of Jews therefore giving Armenia a role in the Holocaust(who is the Holocaust denier now).

? F U prove this baseless charge - proove it with something real - not Turkish internet propoganda. And regardless of what a few anti-communist Armenian zealots may or may not have done (fighting against the Soviet Union along side with nationals of all sorts of regional nations) this has nothing to do with Armenia/Armenians as a whole and again nothing whatsoever to do with the Genocide. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians fought bravely against the Nazis.

Armenians probably deny my signature which says the Kurds were in Asia Minor before the Armenians.

Not sure your supposed quote prooves much of anything - however Kurds were a nomadic people and were likely in many places. Kurds are closely related to Armenians BTW - much more so then they are related to Turks. Again though - I totally fail to see your point regardless - except of course for showing your truly cowardly colors.

If Armenia want recognition they need to have a joint commission with Turkey to show Turkey Armenia's evidence, Turkey will then show Armenia Turkeys evidence, then dialogue will begin.

Up yours xxxxhead. Its not "Armenias eveidence" - its what is accepted by scholars and historians worldwide. Your position is completly bankrupt. They have arrested David Irving again BTW - perhaps you will be next - scum. The longer Turkey and Turks like you continue to deny the truth the longer the world will consider you as abberations and worthy of contempt. And my - once Trukey does come clean as they inevitabley will - sont you look stupid...actually you already do...

[Hovik]

Armenians also reject the idea that during ASALA's reign of terror across the world, Armenia's biggest export was Terrorism and Armenia's biggest import was Foreign Aid right now Armenia's biggest import is Foreign Aid and Armenia's biggest export is immigrants.

Get real - a$ehole. First of all there was no state of Armenia during the time fo ASALA and there was no sponsorship/ownership of ASALA by Armenians - entirely the opposite. Besides this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Genocide. That you (and other Turks) would even bring up such a thing is testament to your desperation - that you have no real argument concerning the Genocide. And the only thing I have to say in response to your critiscim of Armenia - a small landlocked resource poor state attemping to recover from the Soviet legacy, attempting to overcome Turky's economic warfare/blockade - and still attemtping to overcome the fact that Turkey/Ottoman Empire slaughterd the better part of the Armenian population in the world and very specifically wiped out the best and brightest - the only thing I have to say to you when you show your callousness and hatred to be pleased about suffering and misfortunes of others - and my Armenian cousins in specific is....Azerbaijan hahahahahahahaha - a$hole!

UK, regurgitation of your governments propaganda isn't going to help anyone respect you in this forum as someone capable of contribution or of remote intellect. To say Armenias biggest export is terrorism is absurd. By the way what do you know about ASALA? Do you know where they were based out of? (hint: it wasn't Armenia) Do you know who were their agents? (hint: not Armenian citizens). So, please tell us exactly what connections you are making between ASALA and the Republic of Armenia?

1.5 made an excellent point that "there was no sponsorship/ownership of ASALA by Armenians - entirely the opposite". Although the wording is a little sketchy, I believe he means that with few exceptions the Armenian NATION (as well as the Republic of Armenia) didn't support what ASALA was doing. As 1.5 says, it was entirely the opposite, the Armenian NATIONAL opinion played perhaps the largest role in bringing ASALA down.

Armenians also deny that General Dro joined their fellow Aryan's the Nazi's and killed loads of Jews therefore giving Armenia a role in the Holocaust(who is the Holocaust denier now).

? F U prove this baseless charge - proove it with something real - not Turkish internet propoganda. And regardless of what a few anti-communist Armenian zealots may or may not have done (fighting against the Soviet Union along side with nationals of all sorts of regional nations) this has nothing to do with Armenia/Armenians as a whole and again nothing whatsoever to do with the Genocide. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians fought bravely against the Nazis.

UK do you have any basis for proving that the Armenian Nation denies the Holocaust? Pretending that your lie about Armenians helping Nazi's isn't the enormous lie that it is, it still has nothing to do with wether the Armenian Nation or the Republic of Armenia denies the Holocaust or not... that's retarded.

Furthermore, some Jews helped Nazis in different ways during the Holocaust, there are numerous stories about Jews who worked as informants to the Nazi Regime. So, does that mean that Jews too are Jewish Holocaust deniers or perpetrators? (sounds pretty stupid doesn't it?)

Abdul Hamid was half Armenian. Does that mean because he massacred 200,000 Armenians between 1894-1896 that Armenians Massacred Armenians? (you see where this is going? don't make such infantile remarks)

I will add to what 1.5 Million said by reminding that it was ARMENIAN TROOPS that were the first to sack the Riechstag and take control of it. (More information available at the WWII exibit at Mayr Hayastan Museum, Yerevan.)