Dashnaks Insist On Territorial Claims To Turkey

[imported_Freedom]

Freedom, that was a figure of speech.

Figure of speech? Umm. No, that doesn't sound right... to portray this as a "two-sided conflict" is just wrong. Just as it is wrong to portray the Armenian Holocaust as a "civil war in which Turks died too".

Actually, speaking of reparations, Israel will eventually have to make them, and not just to the Palestinians, but also to Lebanon (1982-2000) and possibly also Syria (1967-?).

[Krunchy]

It's amazing how you can be so confident of that statistic without a source.

When I say "still busy fighting them", I mean that bombings and raids still occur all the time, and the Israel-Palestine conflict is still very much alive, especially since the hawkish Hamas was sworn in as leader of Palestine.

Now that I have clarified what I said, the rules stipulate that we can't discuss this issue any further, but if you would like to still talk about it, you are free to send me a PM.

I am confident because I have viewed many sources. Unfortunately, I lost a good deal of my bookmarks recently where I had quick, easy access to the statistics. But it doesn't take a bloodhound to find them. Here is one quick find. I can find more when I have time.

As to the rules, well I see that since they were invented, there has never been more discussion on the topic.

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Conflict Statistics


September 29, 2000 saw an explosion of Palestinian anger and has resulted in an Intifada, Arabic for "a shaking off." Every day, innocent Palestinian and Israeli people are being killed. These pages count, graph and give a context to these deaths.

From Sept. 29, 2000 to February 13, 2006: Israeli Dead: 994
Palestinian Dead: 3812

http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/resources/mrates.asp

[Kharpert]

First off, the ratio according to this statistic is roughly 1 to 4, which is waaaay less than the silly comment of 1 to 100. 1 to 100 would be a genocidal measure. This also does not include foiled Palestinian attempts (per Gondorian's post). This statistic says nothing to prove that the conflict between Palestine and Israel is one-sided, unless you're trying to play the numbers game. Innocent civilians are killed on both sides and neither government is willing to end the killing.

Ariel Sharon has said much but done little to end the conflict, and he was constantly backed by the United States. Newly-appointed Hamas has made several statements swearing to continue the fight against Israel, and he is backed by Iran's Khamanei to continue fighting. And people are trying to tell me this is a one-sided conflict? This is a monumental world-class conflict between Israel, backed by the West, and Palestine, backed by the Arab world. And because of this worthless conflict innocent civilians are perishing from "collateral damage".

I don't approve at ALL how Israel treats Palestinians. I understand that their methods of "taking out terrorist camps" has been unnecessary aggression involving bulldozing down houses and raiding towns. But at the same time, neither do I approve of the Palestinians suicide bombing civilian areas and tampering with utilities to cause disasters. And instead of making talks for peace, BOTH sides are willing to continue the aggression. This isn't a one-sided harassment. This is a two-sided case of absolute aggression and stupidity. And those Israelis and Palestinians that strive for peace are being drowned out by a hawkish majority.

We could sit here until the end of our lives and bicker about how Israelis did this or Palestinians did that, but it wouldn't justify or prove anything. And neither would it help anyone.

[imported_Freedom]

Let us not change the topic; my point was, it is hardly a 1:1 ratio. Moreover, the settlers in West Bank & Gaza are counted in the Israeli figure, when they are part of the armed occupation forces. Also, the majority of Palestinians killed are civilians, whereas a large number of Israelis killed are security personnel (police, army, etc., 305 until Sept. 2005)

Innocent civilians are killed on both sides and neither government is willing to end the killing.

The strong should show its goodwill and offer concessions. What do the Palestinians have to "give"? Don't tell me they should disarm. What has disarmament brought them but tragedy after tragedy, massacre after massacre??

[Kharpert]

Yes, I agreed to the fact that the ratio is not 1:1 but rather 1:4 (but not 1:100). That said, the Israel-Palestine conflict is a vicious cycle. Suicide bomb, IDF raid, suicide bomb, IDF raid, etc. The strong can show goodwill and concessions after the conflict reaches a conclusion, not during. Making demands during an armed conflict isn't going to bring peace to anyone. When a peace treaty is finally agreed upon, the Palestinians shouldn't disarm, but they should stop the suicide bombing. Meanwhile, Israel should stop raiding Palestinian lands.

[imported_Freedom]

The strong can show goodwill and concessions after the conflict reaches a conclusion, not during.

Conflicts - armed or otherwise - do not end without concessions from one side (sometimes it's the stronger one making the compromise, but that's if it wants peace, at other times it's the weak one making the compromise because it has no other choice), unless of course one side is practically eliminated. Hence the Golan Heights issue and how that border is Israel's most peaceful one, which is really interesting, because it also shows that where there is no organized resistance, Israel has annexed the occupied territories.

[Gavur]

“About the Denunciation of the Russian-Turkish Treaty”

Authors Roger Gonnet, Smbat Karakhanian


Smbat Karakhanian is chairman of the Armenian National Club of Moscow, Miabanutiun.


Source Gazeta SNG (Russia)
Reference “О денонсации русско-турецкого Договора”, by Smbat Karakhanian, Gazeta SNG, April 14, 2005.

Summary Right now there is too much talking about both the formation of a civil society in terms of law and its integration in the international community. Out of consideration for international laws and regulations, it is really important to re-establish a historical justice. The geopolitical and strategic matters will not be settled without first solving the issue of the Armenian territories of a prior-to-the-revolution Russia. The March 16, 1921 Treaty between the Soviet Socialist Republic of Russia and the government of Kemalist Turkey is a clear example of the breach of the peoples’ rights. It must be borne in mind that since the summer of 1920, there were two government in Turkey: one in Ankara led by Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk); and another one internationally recognized in those days - the Constantinople government. In the first part of the Treaty, Russia factually recognized the superiority of the Turkish decisions about the international conventions and the principles approved by the UN. In the second part - about the Black Sea and the straits - there are a number of articles not accomplished any more. On page 8, Russia recognized the zone controlled by the Kemalists in March, 1921, as an integral part of the «Turkish territories». Neither then nor now is there a single justification for this in terms of international law.
The Nakhitchevan province was part of the first Republic of Armenia since 1918, and of the Armenian part of the Czarist Russia since 1828. Mount Ararat (on which Noah’s Ark would run aground) was part of this province, of which Turkey took possession. Then, from February 9, 1924, Nakhitchevan became an autonomous republic within the Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan. This treaty conflicts with the Vienna Convention «on the laws of international treaties». The rights of the Russian, Armenian, Kurdish and Greek peoples have not been respected. So, the said treaty must be annulled or revised. It equally opposes the Statement of the Human Rights stipulated by the UN in 1948.
Together with the Armenian National Club Miabanutiun, we advocate the creation of a program aimed at settling the issue by stages. The first would consist of a Russian-Turkish agreement including the right for the descendants of the inhabitants of those regions to return, and then the right to re-establish our historical and cultural patrimony, the creation of an economic entity and the restoration of the old Christian churches.

[Kharpert]

David-X, allow me to suggest that Israel make up with Iran?

Do you realize how similar your request is?

[David-X]

David-X, allow me to suggest that Israel make up with Iran? Do you realize how similar your request is?

Are you serious? I think I'm gonna go "mashugana" listening to you anti-Semites. Hey, Hitler Yungend, when was the last time you heard anyone in Turkey swear to completely destroy Armenia? When was the last time you heard Turkey claim to want to wipe Armenia off the map? What was the last time you heard anyone say they want to exterminate the Armenian race? Have you been following the blood thirsty talk coming out of Tehran? Don't you see how stupid you sound? Are you now going to tell me that Armenia is supporting the terrorist nation of Iran?

As a matter of fact, its seems to be unltra-nationalist Armenians like you who are wishing for the destruction of Turkey, the only secular-civilized-western Muslim nation on earth. And then you cry on the Armenian genocide day. You folks here nothing but little wannabe Nazis.

[Joseph]

And you expect Turks to say sorry? Just in case you have not noticed, Turkey is the strongest army in the region, after Israel I suggest you to find ways to make up.

And I concider you a racist bigot and an anti-Semite.

You funny people.

So by your logic, we should discontinue the recognition of the Armenian Genocide because Turkey has a large army.

David X..is that like Malcolm X?