Armenian genocide from a Turk's point of view

[lal]

Armenians are a race,so are Greeks,Arabs,Kurds etc. But Turks are NOT a race.Anatolian Turk defines a nationality. Turks are a combination of MUSLİM people from all over the world . Turk contains, Hitit,Celt,Armenian,Greek, Persian,Arab,Slav,Turcic,Afghan even some African Black or far away Syberia's Yakut or American İndian bloods in herself/himself. Mixed with each other or pure,Armenian or Serbian, black or oriental ,dont matter, whoever can honestly call herself /himself a Turk is a Turk. This may be like being an American, except that a Turk must also be a Muslim unlike an American can freely believe into anything..--Though in these days ı am not so sure about musims there--

This was like that in the past and still like this today.So we can safely say that a Turk cant be racist since she/he dont have a particular race.

So if the problem is not racizm,DNA s, then why did Turks made an orginised genocide against Armenians?

When Balkan states regained their independence from Ottomans, they strongly used Orthodox Christian sprit to form a nationalist feelings against Ottomans. The rest of the muslim people in Anatolia was called simply muslims. They were certainly not racially Turks.They were all kinds of muslim people from all over everywhere,Arabs,Persians,Turcics,Slavs,converted Greeks,Armenians etc.

These people got together and started to fight against different Christian people. Because in the lost christian lands,this time they were unwanted, second class people.After living under muslim despotizm for hundreds of years,newly independent christians were definitly not nice to muslims.But also Arabs revolted at the same time and cooparated with the enemy of Muslims,while Arabs were origanal muslims themselves.

One time Barbaric,strong Ottomans were loosing everywhere. There were no more captured christian boys, Yeniçeri was fighting in the wars. Only poor and sick,hungry Anatolian Muslims were fighting and dying everywhere. From Algeria to Mekke,from Azerbeycan to Kırım, millions of young muslim boys died. No men left in the country.

Anatolian muslims with last afford decided to form a new nationality and called themselves TURK this time to seperate enemy Arabs from themselves.---among very different muslims,only Kurds did not accept assimilation under Turk umbrella--Later Turks tried to form a new kind of İslam to differ themselves from Arabs more, whom they hate for their support against the enemy.

Somehow a miracle happened and Anatolia became a Muslim Turks land.--very possibly with Russias hidden help --But heroic struggle from Turks point of view is also a reality.

An ordinary Turk dont feels a sorrow against what happened to Armenians. So many millions of Turks were killed by Christians everywhere and Anatolia were cleared from Christian germs.


From christians point of view, it was a disaster. Enemy Christians who were in Anatolia for thousands of years were unwanted,Greek,Assyrian or Armenian doesnt matter. Very orginised,state supported deportation if possible conversion to İslam and torture and murders started against all Christians. This torture still goes on today if not in mass killings level. There is a pscohological fight against christians. They cant be police,solder etc. simply they are not considered Turks.Christians are still not forgiven and still not wanted, though I must accept that situation is rather better comparing to past.

Today turks dont make 10 s of babies to send wars anymore.We can cry for our dead sons in the fights.We now have feelings.We now know that there are other things in life other than killing and dying for stupit things.We learned that the most important thing is humans life. we are matured as a society if not enough yet.

Many Turks are today quite aware of the injustice done to our brodhers, Armenians who suffered for a century.

I believe that Greeks and Armenians must be able to buy lands and do business in Turkey without visa and any difficulty.Borders must be opened.--and karabağ must some how solved.This is the great obstacle for turkey---- We must show the respect you deserve. Because you created very beautiful cultures for centuries.All the good buildings and everything was done by you people.actaually turkey needs you back here. This 21 st century must not be war century again. Time must come that we can solve all our problems with respect and love towards each other. Even if the governments order to make wars, we must disobey them. wars are not for ordinary people ,they are for the leaders who use us for their dirty dreams.

Armenians must also know that we Turks are not all evils. We are today normal people like anybody else. We try to survive in our small worlds.Our biggest problem is that we are under wahhabi islam invasion.--Do you see how our president,prime minister and all ministers wifes dress,and they dont shake hands with men.---

I believe all problems can be solved with love. Apologise will naturally come one day.

[lal]

Before ı leave this forum for a time (or for ever ),ı want to say few more words to armenian friends.

First of all ,it was a surprise for me to observe the politeness of the writers of this forum. So I want to thank you for this.

I realised one point here. Armenians generally can symphatise with islam. This was strange for me,because ı condemn 90% islams teachings --also christianity--for the armenian genocide.İn anatolia religons seperated people stroger than ethnicity.

Second point is this.Most educated Turks know how and why the genocide happened and willing to admit it, for moral reasons. But For most people İt is not possible to accept it loudly,because Armenians attempt to harm todays Turkey and todays turks in every oppurtinity .

So if turks consider the armenians as an enemy ,they simply wont accept nothing.And no turkish government can do this. I also think most of the diaspora armenians really dont want to hear an apology from turkey. turkish hate is the main factor keeping the diaspora armenain identity together.

many armenians want also lands and money from turkey. Also azeris are turks. and karabağ is a lost land for turks.also murdered diplomats by asala are not forgotten. armenians dont want a turkey in eu.these are all very negative things.

What ı mean is this. a turk is considered as an enemy for an average armeanian for obvious reasons. but also an armenian is considered an enemy for an average turk for the above written reasons.

I dont believe that even if the whole world accepts the genocide officially in state levels, nothing and ı really mean it,nothing can change from turkeys point of view. ı think in todays world order,only benefits and economy and strategies, design the politics. I dont believe that france accepts the genocide for humanity or justice. they dont want to see peasant muslims in eu,and they use the genocide issue to harass the turks.


Armenians did an unbelievable fight for tens of years and informed all the world about the genocide. This is a great success,otherwise it was going to be forgotten in the darkness of history. Armenians can go on the same strategy for ever. this is their decision. But they must know that ,after a certain point ,the more harm they give to turkey ,less chance will it be that turks will be friendly with armenians, and consider to face their dark parts of history.

Turks, may be with the help of islam, are extremely resistent to forcebly admitting anything.some of you think that turkey is forced to dialog with armenia by usa or other world powers.this is not possible.the only reason turkey and armenia started to dialog, is the situation in georgia. both turkey and armenia need georgia for different reasons.so ,as you see, we normal peoples cries and angers and struglles are so ineffective. but a real economic need among the countries can solve the problems in a minite. But unless the enemy image among both peoples are changed ,ı dont believe that a sincere friendship can happen.

The only way for a turk to admit the genocide, is to remember the armenians position 100 years ago.who were armenians,what contributions did they do for ottomans.Then turk can consider this ,not as dealing with an enemy,harming turkey all the time, living in france and california, but as a good old neighbour ,good countryman,honest people, good artists. then he will rebell to the things happened to this good people.

These are my opinions.I am sorry if some of my words hurt you all.

bye bye and ı love you.

lal

[Joseph]

Before ı leave this forum for a time (or for ever ),ı want to say few more words to armenian friends.

First of all ,it was a surprise for me to observe the politeness of the writers of this forum. So I want to thank you for this.

I realised one point here. Armenians generally can symphatise with islam. This was strange for me,because ı condemn 90% islams teachings --also christianity--for the armenian genocide.İn anatolia religons seperated people stroger than ethnicity.

Second point is this.Most educated Turks know how and why the genocide happened and willing to admit it, for moral reasons. But For most people İt is not possible to accept it loudly,because Armenians attempt to harm todays Turkey and todays turks in every oppurtinity .

So if turks consider the armenians as an enemy ,they simply wont accept nothing.And no turkish government can do this. I also think most of the diaspora armenians really dont want to hear an apology from turkey. turkish hate is the main factor keeping the diaspora armenain identity together.

many armenians want also lands and money from turkey. Also azeris are turks. and karabağ is a lost land for turks.also murdered diplomats by asala are not forgotten. armenians dont want a turkey in eu.these are all very negative things.

What ı mean is this. a turk is considered as an enemy for an average armeanian for obvious reasons. but also an armenian is considered an enemy for an average turk for the above written reasons.

I dont believe that even if the whole world accepts the genocide officially in state levels, nothing and ı really mean it,nothing can change from turkeys point of view. ı think in todays world order,only benefits and economy and strategies, design the politics. I dont believe that france accepts the genocide for humanity or justice. they dont want to see peasant muslims in eu,and they use the genocide issue to harass the turks.


Armenians did an unbelievable fight for tens of years and informed all the world about the genocide. This is a great success,otherwise it was going to be forgotten in the darkness of history. Armenians can go on the same strategy for ever. this is their decision. But they must know that ,after a certain point ,the more harm they give to turkey ,less chance will it be that turks will be friendly with armenians, and consider to face their dark parts of history.

Turks, may be with the help of islam, are extremely resistent to forcebly admitting anything.some of you think that turkey is forced to dialog with armenia by usa or other world powers.this is not possible.the only reason turkey and armenia started to dialog, is the situation in georgia. both turkey and armenia need georgia for different reasons.so ,as you see, we normal peoples cries and angers and struglles are so ineffective. but a real economic need among the countries can solve the problems in a minite. But unless the enemy image among both peoples are changed ,ı dont believe that a sincere friendship can happen.

The only way for a turk to admit the genocide, is to remember the armenians position 100 years ago.who were armenians,what contributions did they do for ottomans.Then turk can consider this ,not as dealing with an enemy,harming turkey all the time, living in france and california, but as a good old neighbour ,good countryman,honest people, good artists. then he will rebell to the things happened to this good people.

These are my opinions.I am sorry if some of my words hurt you all.

bye bye and ı love you.

lal

lal,

It is sad to see you go {hopefully not forever}; and I promise to respond to you last email when things slow down at work which should be very soon.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Ok hold up

Armenians are a race,so are Greeks,Arabs,Kurds etc. But Turks are NOT a race.Anatolian Turk defines a nationality. Turks are a combination of MUSLİM people from all over the world . Turk contains, Hitit,Celt,Armenian,Greek, Persian,Arab,Slav,Turcic,Afghan even some African Black or far away Syberia's Yakut or American İndian bloods in herself/himself. Mixed with each other or pure,Armenian or Serbian, black or oriental ,dont matter, whoever can honestly call herself /himself a Turk is a Turk. This may be like being an American, except that a Turk must also be a Muslim unlike an American can freely believe into anything..--Though in these days ı am not so sure about musims there--

This was like that in the past and still like this today.So we can safely say that a Turk cant be racist since she/he dont have a particular race.

So if the problem is not racizm,DNA s, then why did Turks made an orginised genocide against Armenians?

When Balkan states regained their independence from Ottomans, they strongly used Orthodox Christian sprit to form a nationalist feelings against Ottomans. The rest of the muslim people in Anatolia was called simply muslims. They were certainly not racially Turks.They were all kinds of muslim people from all over everywhere,Arabs,Persians,Turcics,Slavs,converted Greeks,Armenians etc.

These people got together and started to fight against different Christian people. Because in the lost christian lands,this time they were unwanted, second class people.After living under muslim despotizm for hundreds of years,newly independent christians were definitly not nice to muslims.But also Arabs revolted at the same time and cooparated with the enemy of Muslims,while Arabs were origanal muslims themselves.

One time Barbaric,strong Ottomans were loosing everywhere. There were no more captured christian boys, Yeniçeri was fighting in the wars. Only poor and sick,hungry Anatolian Muslims were fighting and dying everywhere. From Algeria to Mekke,from Azerbeycan to Kırım, millions of young muslim boys died. No men left in the country.

Anatolian muslims with last afford decided to form a new nationality and called themselves TURK this time to seperate enemy Arabs from themselves.---among very different muslims,only Kurds did not accept assimilation under Turk umbrella--Later Turks tried to form a new kind of İslam to differ themselves from Arabs more, whom they hate for their support against the enemy.

Somehow a miracle happened and Anatolia became a Muslim Turks land.--very possibly with Russias hidden help --But heroic struggle from Turks point of view is also a reality.

An ordinary Turk dont feels a sorrow against what happened to Armenians. So many millions of Turks were killed by Christians everywhere and Anatolia were cleared from Christian germs.


From christians point of view, it was a disaster. Enemy Christians who were in Anatolia for thousands of years were unwanted,Greek,Assyrian or Armenian doesnt matter. Very orginised,state supported deportation if possible conversion to İslam and torture and murders started against all Christians. This torture still goes on today if not in mass killings level. There is a pscohological fight against christians. They cant be police,solder etc. simply they are not considered Turks.Christians are still not forgiven and still not wanted, though I must accept that situation is rather better comparing to past.

Today turks dont make 10 s of babies to send wars anymore.We can cry for our dead sons in the fights.We now have feelings.We now know that there are other things in life other than killing and dying for stupit things.We learned that the most important thing is humans life. we are matured as a society if not enough yet.

Many Turks are today quite aware of the injustice done to our brodhers, Armenians who suffered for a century.

I believe that Greeks and Armenians must be able to buy lands and do business in Turkey without visa and any difficulty.Borders must be opened.--and karabağ must some how solved.This is the great obstacle for turkey---- We must show the respect you deserve. Because you created very beautiful cultures for centuries.All the good buildings and everything was done by you people.actaually turkey needs you back here. This 21 st century must not be war century again. Time must come that we can solve all our problems with respect and love towards each other. Even if the governments order to make wars, we must disobey them. wars are not for ordinary people ,they are for the leaders who use us for their dirty dreams.

Armenians must also know that we Turks are not all evils. We are today normal people like anybody else. We try to survive in our small worlds.Our biggest problem is that we are under wahhabi islam invasion.--Do you see how our president,prime minister and all ministers wifes dress,and they dont shake hands with men.---

I believe all problems can be solved with love. Apologise will naturally come one day.

Good post man, I don't know how you factor in that Turks are Celts though, there were Celtic traders in the region looooong ago, but most were wiped out by successions of Romans, Germanics and Huns, so I cannot see the Clann na nGael relation. Secondly, I as someone of half Native American ancestry can so no similarity in facial, cultural or linguistics with Turks, so I don't get how you are native American. I'd wager most modern day Turks of Anatolia are Turkified Circassians, Slavs and Greeks while most Azeris are probably Turkified Armenians or Iranians.

Also Arabs, Iranians, Armenians and so forth are of the Armenoid racial category if u believe in the traditional anthropological view, of the Irano Afghan group which makes up most of West Asia and South Asia (note I don't mean culturally Iranian, I mean racially)

Secondly racial hatred means the hating of one or more races, that means anyone, even mixed people can be racist (believe you me on this one!)

Now as to religion being a precursor of the Balkan independance, no it isn't, Albanians also rebelled against Turks and they are Muslims.
Also note that the Arabs already lobbied against the Ottomans by 1821, way before the Genocide, so Achmo, Voch, Nyet, Nil, Non, No.

Arabs wanted independance to elect their leaders (the concept of Democracy), many far away from Anatolia, the Balkan and Mespotamia also faught for independance (Irish, Russians, Chinese, etc.) which nothing to do with religion, but a government based on a Republic (elected leaders).

Anatolian Muslims did not form this new Ethnicity called Turk, Turks came to West Asia from Central Asia here around 1066 with Arp Arslan and the Mamelukes, then the Seljuks, then the Oghuz.
The first Turks were ethnically and racially Mongolian, today's Turks are Turkified Circassians, Slavs, etc.

Also Kurds have been horribly treated, so have Alevi Muslims and Arabs in the Hatay province.

Secondly Turks always had feelings, just like in Germany, it wasn't so much that people aided the Oppressors, they were just indifferent and thats what made the difference. And some didn't even know what was happening

I know there are Turks who are aware about what happened to Armenians, look at Taner Akcam, Orhan Pamuk, Fatma Gocek, etc.

What you said however about disobeying the government and not fighting against Armenians I think is very beautiful and it shows very mature thinking there. There I agree very much.

I don't agree with the attack on Wahhabi, as Wahhabi Arabs helped save Armenian survivors in Saudi Arabia.

But I agree Love is what we need, love and respect.

I must say I agree with Joseph, it is sad to see you go, you make many valids points with some of your points and nice to debate the current situation in West Asia with rational and resonable reply.

[Steph]

Good post man, I don't know how you factor in that Turks are Celts though, there were Celtic traders in the region looooong ago, but most were wiped out by successions of Romans, Germanics and Huns, so I cannot see the Clann na nGael relation.

The Celtic homeland is the Steppelands of present day Ukraine/Russia/Kazahkstan, not too far from the Gobi.

[Steph]

Arabs wanted independance to elect their leaders (the concept of Democracy), many far away from Anatolia, the Balkan and Mespotamia also faught for independance (Irish, Russians, Chinese, etc.) which nothing to do with religion, but a government based on a Republic (elected leaders).

Arabs wanted democracy??
Aah Pedro, how many Arab democracies are there today? How many have there been since 1918?
Arabs didn't elect their tribal/clan chiefs, they're probably as far from democratic as possible.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Steph my friend

It must be remembered as to the Arabs that yes there are few Democracies perhaps, but then can we call America truly Democratic, the UK most certainly isn't, it still has a monarchy. Please remember that no people have always been democratic and Lebanon at the moment is a damn good deal more democratic than Turkey.

The Greeks thought up Democracy, but at a stage Greece was under a dictatorship during the mid 1900s, so while Democracy was intended perhaps as with all social movements, it turned alot different.
Remember the Poblachta na hEireanne (Republic of Ireland) was supposed to be a Democratic Socialist Republic, today there is no Socialism.

As to the Celtic homeland, the original Celtic homeland was in the Balkans and Southern Central Europe, the language has an afinity with the Balto Slavonic group of language. There after migrated into La Tene west of the Rhine and then Gaul, Northern Spain and then the British Isles. We have little to no relation to the Turks.

The only Celts ever in Anatolia were traders. The Greeks were the first non Celtic people to meet the Celts (Keltoi) and they met then in Central and Southern Europe and Western Europe, not Eastern Europe.

Diodorus Siculus and Strabo both suggest that the Celtic heartland was in southern France. The former says that the Gauls were to the north of the Celts but that the Romans referred to both as Gauls. Before the discoveries at Hallstatt and La Tene, it was generally considered that the Celtic heartland was southern France, see Encyclopedia Britannica for 1813.

Traditionally the Celts were considered a Central European Iron Age phenomenon, through the cultures of Hallstatt and La Tène. However, archaeological finds from the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures were rare in the Iberian Peninsula, and did not provide enough evidence for a cultural scenario comparable to that of Central Europe. It is considered equally difficult to maintain that the origin of the Peninsular Celts can be linked to the preceding Urnfield culture, leading to a more recent approach that introduces a 'proto-Celtic' substratum and a process of Celticization having its initial roots in the Bronze Age Bell Beaker culture.

The Celts also expanded down the Danube river and its tributaries. One of the most influential tribes, the Scordisci, had established their capital at Singidunum in 3rd century BC, which is present-day Belgrade, Serbia. The concentration of hill-forts and cemeteries shows a density of population in the Tisza valley of modern-day Vojvodina, Serbia, Hungary and into Ukraine. Expansion into Romania was however blocked by the Dacians.

Further south, Celts settled in Thrace (Bulgaria), which they ruled for over a century, and Anatolia, where they settled as the Galatians (see also: Gallic Invasion of Greece). Despite their geographical isolation from the rest of the Celtic world, the Galatians maintained their Celtic language for at least seven hundred years. St Jerome, who visited Ancyra (modern-day Ankara) in 373 AD, likened their language to that of the Treveri of northern Gaul.

The Boii tribe gave their name to Bohemia and Bologna, and Celtic artefacts and cemeteries have been discovered further east in what is now Poland and Slovakia. A celtic coin (Biatec) from Bratislava's mint is displayed on today's Slovak 5 crown coin.

As there is no archaeological evidence for large scale invasions in some of the other areas, one current school of thought holds that Celtic language and culture spread to those areas by contact rather than invasion[citation needed]. However, the Celtic invasions of Italy and the expedition in Greece and western Anatolia, are well documented in Greek and Latin history.

There are records of Celtic mercenaries in Egypt serving the Ptolemies. Thousands were employed in 283-246 BC and they were also in service around 186 BC. They attempted to overthrow Ptolemy II.

# Thomas M. Charles-Edwards, "Beyond empire II: Christianities of the Celtic peoples," in Cambridge History of Christianity. Vol. 3. Early Medieval Christianities, c.600–c.1100. Edited by Thomas F. X. Noble and Julia M. H. Smith. Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 2008 (Cambridge History of Christianity), 86-106.
# Alberro, Manuel and Arnold, Bettina (eds.), e-Keltoi: Journal of Interdisciplinary Celtic Studies, Volume 6: The Celts in the Iberian Peninsula, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee, Center for Celtic Studies, 2005.
# Collis, John. The Celts: Origins, Myths and Inventions. Stroud: Tempus Publishing, 2003. ISBN 0-7524-2913-2. Historiography of Celtic studies.
# Cunliffe, Barry. The Ancient Celts. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997. ISBN 0-19-815010-5.
# Cunliffe, Barry. Iron Age Britain. London: Batsford, 2004. ISBN 0-7134-8839-5
# Cunliffe, Barry. The Celts: A Very Short Introduction. 2003

[Edoman]

...Turks, may be with the help of islam, are extremely resistent to forcebly admitting anything...

Some Turk on this Forum said a few days ago that you will never get Turks to admit anything unless you beat it out of them. I think I will go with that concept.

I have been told that when it comes to Turks I have a double personality (Jackal and hide). As hard as I try I cannot help that, it must have been imprinted in my DNA.

[Alexandros]

I can`t believe I missed this thread.I hope you come back lal and continue posting.We need more poeple like you here.

Regards,

Alexandros

[Steph]

The only Celts ever in Anatolia were traders.

Further south, Celts settled in Thrace (Bulgaria), which they ruled for over a century, and Anatolia, where they settled as the Galatians (see also: Gallic Invasion of Greece). Despite their geographical isolation from the rest of the Celtic world, the Galatians maintained their Celtic language for at least seven hundred years. St Jerome, who visited Ancyra (modern-day Ankara) in 373 AD, likened their language to that of the Treveri of northern Gaul.

Ped, which one is it ?