Ataturks statue in Israel

[Steph]

Eti, I agree with you, that was the motive for genocide: turks were afraid to loose what left of empire- Anatolia to Armenians... yes the Genocide was planed by few people –not the nation , but was executed by the nation….

Vahe, precisely the point. Eti misses this, planned by the few, implemented by the many. turkey has done such a comprehensive job of indoctrinating it's population, so perhaps here he and others such as Ferdi, can learn the truth.

If you consider how indoctrinated the Germans were within a decade of Hitler's gaining power, we've got the best part of a century of bs to turn around.

[Sako]

Saco, we are talking about a cosmopolitan state that was based upon multi-national construction. Since the very beginning, Ottomans always wanted Christians and Jews to keep close to themselves. This was because of some political reasons, but mostly they needed their knowledges at the beginning, but this doesn’t mean that they didn’t want them afterwards. It was a common thing to live in a multi-culturel cities and towns for centuries until the rise of nationalism in 18th century.

True and natural, almost all countries went through this. The problem was that the Turks took what they wanted and destroyed everything else. That was also natural though, the world was very dark back then. The problem is that the world slowly changed but Turkey didn’t (at least not as much as we would all like).

When Fatih the Sultan conquered Istanbul he wanted Christians and Jews, who coludn’t run away, to stay in the city. I don’t know if you know but Armenians entered Istanbul for the first time by the Sultan’s request. So, Jews, Armenians and Greeks had their own districts in Istanbul. It is not hard to understand why did they so, of course Ottomans valued their knowledges about sciences, arts, handicrafts and commerce, they would be a link to the Europe as well. And also they kept the existing of Greek Orthodox Patriarch continue in Istanbul. However, they could fastly destroy it. You can say that they used them for their advantages, yes, but not abnormal. Christians and Jews lived with them for centuries and they had their place in the empire.

Again, nothing very new. I’m glad you took the time to look over your history books, Eti. It’s more peaceful talking to you, you can say, haha.

As Ottomans were rulers and felt themselves in a high position, why / how could they be jealous of Armenians or others? For centuries, in Eastern Anatolia, Turks and Armenians were neighbors in many towns and cities and they weren’t jealous of each others for a long time. Their ordinary lives continued for centuries without any serious conflict.

Eti, I appreciate your knowledge and the fact that you took the time to actually understand something and then talk unlike many Turks out there. I thank you personally for that. This is where I have to stop you though. You know much but not much about Armenia. You ask, “As Ottomans were rulers and felt themselves in a high position, why / how could they be jealous of Armenians or others?” This simply shows how little you know about Turkish/Armenian relations. Armenia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Georgia have always been in different relationships throughout history. Turkey and Armenia have been through a lot. Turks were grand in quantity, that’s what you see in any Muslim country. But Armenians were grand in quality and the Turks couldn’t match the prowess of the Armenians in many, many ways. You don’t see that difference. Everything hasn’t ever been completely normal. Turks always showed envy, betrayal, etc. There were always groups of people that loathed each other. Turkey’s politics were screwed up from the beginning and it still sucks even for Turks. Differences were always there, and BIG differences. One Armenian, I’m not saying this is in a bad way or anything, was equal to many Turks sometimes. You know why, because Turkey was backwards a lot. That’s why all the sultans wanted people from other countries in their country. The Turks have almost been another word for greed and envy but still, I’m not saying all Turks are bad. I’m just saying they have been famous for making ridiculous and indescribable decisions. They were backwards, Eti, and they had every reason to envy not only Armenians but many other nationalities as well. Turks had military power but it’s been proven many times, quantity does not beat quality and everyone, including the Turks, understood that. Don’t even try to think for a second that the Genocide was not based on envy or greed, or jealousy. This isn’t a case where you can talk neutrally. I respect Turks, I know many, so don’t even think for a second that I have something against them, but the truth must be faced so we can all have a brighter future. Turkey has screwed up a lot, even in its own country to this day and we have to face our weakness to go ahead. So please, enough with the history lesson, I could tell stories that could make a persons hair stand on end but I realize that won’t help. What we need is to accept our past without pain which is very hard I know, and go forward into the future without fear or else our futures will be filled with just that, FEAR and pain.

By the way, I am not trying to tell you that Ottomans were angels, but trying to tell the situation neutrally as much as I know.

I understand and respect your decision and views but you can’t always be neutral.

Of course AG was a big mistake, but of course it was planned. I didn’t mean that it was made by mistake (because I thought in Turkish). A mistake that was performed by uneducated and foolish leaders. They simply thought that deportation of Armenians would prevent the existing of any Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia. The leaders like Talat and Enver considered all Armenians as potential criminals, not just for their times, also for the future. So, so many innocents died or were killed on the way to the Syria you know.

Eti, please, save me the history, no offense, Syria isn't even one percent of the Genocide. And if you want to talk about bad leadership, I say it wasn’t “bad leadership” or a “mistake” or even a “BIG mistake”. The Armenians were hated, envied, and in the end, murdered. You talk history from books, I give you real stories. What the Turks did was unacceptable, indescribable, out of bounds, out of control, and everything was done without a single tear. When you say it was all a mistake and you try to be neutral, those words almost give those Turks an excuse or an explanation. Indirectly of course, I know you don’t want that. I’m not saying this in an angry or wrong way, I’m saying this by looking at things as they are. No history book will be able to describe what the Turks did, even THEY can’t describe what happened, and what happened is inexcusable. That must and will be accepted and never forgotten because if it is, we will be forgetting who we are, where we are from, and who we were in the past. Remember the past, don’t live by it though, that’s the right way. What the Turks do is forget everything like it never happened. I pity many, I won’t lie.

And the only reason of it was to prevent Armenians from establishing an Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia, so, for me, no need to seek any other reasons.

Eti, when I read these words (I hope I’m wrong although I don’t say anything until I’m very sure), they feel very stale. You gave an excuse, a REASON to why the Turks committed Genocide. This shows that you haven’t understood what happened really. They wanted to simply PREVENT Armenians from establishing a state? Do you hear yourself? Do you believe what you’re saying even a bit? The Turks destroyed EVERYTHING, including all the states that ALREADY were established! The Turks had lots to fear, Eti. Also, why didn’t the Turks commit Genocide to the Greeks or the other people? They weren’t a threat, that’s why.

You don’t need any other reasons and I doubt you could handle any other facts or reasons. You know much but you seem like a new edition of a World History book and you make everything seem so normal, that’s what makes everything so painful and offending to many people out there. I know you do this without wanting to and I don’t blame you at all. I just don’t want you to think that there was a perfectly understandable reason for everything because there wasn’t. The Genocide and many other atrocities had such simple explanations but many refuse to accept them, that’s their problem, not ours. I can tell you things that would never be understood or explained or FORGIVEN. I want you to understand the difference and please stop thinking (if you are) that we’re eating hay and don’t understand anything because we do. You didn’t state anything unusual. We’ve been through all that more then you and the fact is WE don’t need to hear any more reasons, we need to hear people accepting what happened and not only to us and NOT when it’s too late like the British. I completely understand you though and you are on the right track, I’m not saying you’re entirely wrong, I’d hate myself if I did. I accept and appreciate you just as you are but when it comes to serious issues, being sentimental is not my suit.

It is important not to forget that AG was planned by a few individuals, not a nation.

Maybe, but almost the entire nation took part in it. All those soldiers, all those generals, all those people that felt relaxed thinking they wouldn’t have to stand next to Armenians again. The Genocide was planned by a few individuals (not that few) but carried out by a nation. You forget that. Those soldiers weren’t forced to rape mothers, to drown children, to burn virgins, etc. And these weren’t a few soldiers who were screwed up in their heads. The Turks know this and they can’t accept the fact that almost all of these Turks were their grandparents. I feel sorry, I really do, but I won’t let my country be mocked by those same people. Enough is enough. I don’t need excuses Eti, and I know you aren’t giving them but many are and I sometimes don’t know what to feel. We need solutions and more then practical solutions. It’s about time. My nationality is not Armenia, it’s the world, and I’m disgusted by seeing how stupid leaders make stupid decisions and then make the people pay for their actions. It’s time to face what happened and MAKE SURE THAT IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. Herika ... ek dum bas, bohut hogiya.

[ardakilic]

Eti and others,

I try to make a brief and general (it means not deep) explanation, but not a rationalization for Genocides. What i only want to do is draw a big picture, as much as i can do:

From the beginning of second half of 19th century, especially after Ottoman-Russian War in 1878, Ottoman "elite" (political leaders, journalists, army officers) had realized some 'facts' (i mean, fact for their point of view): Sooner or earlier, Turks will recoil to Anatolia rectangle. This realization run with the rise of nationalism. This tendency became crystal in Ittihat-Terakki. They also belive in that, a 'secure' state can be established with a homogenous people. This idea also continues even today, in modern Turkish state.

They want to get rid of Arabs, so they did. How they behave Arab people is also bad, but of course as not much as they behave to Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians. BUt this is not for they love Arabs, because they dont care simply.

They have two big problems: The biggest is Christian minority in Anatolia (according to 1914 Census, about % 20 of Anatolia was Christian Armenians and Greeks). The second factor is immigrants coming from Balcans. Even they "execute" (i use this word in both meaning) "Armenian Question", they didnot fell themselves comfortable. I borrow these words from Talat the Murderer. One of his telegrams, he orders as "Since Armenian question was executed, no more crulety is needed".

Their plan is killing Christian minorities and assimilating Muslim non-Turkic communities (Kurds, Caucasians, Balcanians).

So, it is long-thought and cold-blooded executed plan; not a mistake.

[Sako]

Kudos Ardakilic and not because I feel good that a Turk accepted that fact and I grin evily but because we stand on the same solid ground and understand each other. By the way, where have you been? We've been waiting for you.

[Eti]

Steph and Vahe, Armenian genocide was planned by a few leaders and executed by a part of Ottoman Army and also many killings performed by Kurdish gangs and the rest died becasue of bad conditions, but, not by a nation. Any nation on this world can not be considered a criminal or murderer. You can make all the countries of the world recognize AG, but you can’t load all the responsibility to a nation.

For example, Germans were not responsible for Jewish genocide, but some leaders: Hitler, Joseph Goebels, Martin Bormann, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg etc. except a few of them because of dying or suicide; they were blamed for the Jewish genocide and tried from 1945 to 1949 in Nuremberg Trials, then hanged. But German people were not responsible, they were not all tried and hanged. At the most, you can blame the Nazi Party but not all Germans.

And Saco, I read what you have written.

Nothing is new for me too that you have written above. I read many times on this site that Turks didn’t know anything but Armenians knew everything, so Turks envied them and commited genocide. This approach is very simple and would be used for degrading Turkish people at this forum by nationalist Armenians years ago. And I can say that such things were told by Nazis for Jews too. I read in Hitler’s book “Meine Kampf” that he talked about Jews in such a way. I am not saying that you are a fashist or nationalist Armenian, but your words go to the same kind of mentality. Sometimes things go inverse and so, an Armenian begins to speak in such a nationalistic way that the only thing he / she tells is how Turks were barbaric and uneducated. Because, in fact, this is what he / she all knows about Turks. Anyways, to despise a nation requires a lot of responsibility and also to blame a nationality for something needs a lot of information, of course.

I am trying to tell you that who were Ottomans. To know this very important for you. To know this will lead you to some more realistic opinions about today’s Turkey and Turkish people. In media, the things that are told about Turkey and Turks are not always true. What I always have seen in such forums is that members always tend to believe the negative things about Turks.

I have to go now, but see you again.

[Edoman]

I understand that many westerners and some people from all around world have difficulities to understand how Turkey has been changed into a secular state after the collapse of an Islamic empire. So, for them it is a need to understand that even by the help some speculations I think, as you too do the same thing....

I didn’t state that as a fact. If you had read my post more carefully you would have seen that I only questioned such possibilities and that more research is required. I am no fan of conspiracy theories. I am personally interested in the chain of decisions that were made behind close doors after the Allied Victory in WWI that has shaped our lives and created today’s Geo-politics. It is easy for some to say well it was for natural resources such as oil or it was for the control of the ME from boiling over or that they decided that it would be more beneficial to have an Islamic secular state as an Allie in the region rather than to go with the treaty of Sevres.

Back to the subject I would very much to ask y’ll….WHY this Turkish Government feels the need to erect Ataturks statue all around the freaking planet. I mean they would even put it on the moon if they could. What is it that they are trying to achieve? No other country does such a thing.

[Eti]

Back to the subject I would very much to ask y’ll….WHY this Turkish Government feels the need to erect Ataturks statue all around the freaking planet. I mean they would even put it on the moon if they could. What is it that they are trying to achieve? No other country does such a thing.

Actually, I have not heard such a thing that Turkish government wants to erect Ataturks statue in a country. I read newspapers daily and nobody has mentioned about such a thing. I am growing suspicious about this case, this must be another speculation I think.

[Sako]

Steph and Vahe, Armenian genocide was planned by a few leaders and executed a part of Ottoman Army and also many killings performed by Kurdish gangs and the rest died becasue of bad conditions, but, not by a nation. Any nation on this world can not be considered a criminal or murderer. You can make all the countries of the world recognize AG, but you can’t load all the responsibility to a nation.

Who said the ENTIRE nation was responsible, Eti, calm down, you misunderstand us here. Also, when you say "A part" of the Ottomon army, it wasn't a part of it, it was the entire army. Armenians were in many places, not just one region. Myabe not ALL the soldiers but 90% of them. In war, do half the soldiers stay back? Also, the Turks wanted to get rid of the Armenians fast, how could they if they sent only half of their soldiers?

For example, Germans were not responsible for Jewish genocide, but some leaders: Hitler, Joseph Goebels, Martin Bormann, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg etc. except a few of them because of dying or suicide; they were blamed for the Jewish genocide and tried from 1945 to 1946 in Nuremberg Trials, then hanged.

True, but Germany pays for what happened everyday, till now. No one is going to wipe out a nation no matter how bad it is, we aren't going to do what the Turks did. Also, if the Turks atleast acted like the Germans do, this world would have been a better place. I'm talking about after Hitler died. They accepted everything. Their leaders screwed the world up and then let the people pay for their crimes and THAT'S WRONG, EXTREMELY WRONG, but someone has to pay. The country was responsible, not every individual person, that's rediculous. But you know what the difference is, the Turks continue it till today. They break everything Armenian, they loathe us, they kill Armenians, they call us liers, etc. They are going too far and this shows what the country and many of it's PEOPLE do, not just a few leaders. One leader stands up, everyone follows and the followers eventually pay the price so YES, not only the leaders are responsible.

But German people were not responsible, they were not all tried and hanged. At the most, you can blame the Nazi Party but not all Germans.

No one is blaming ALL the Turks, but MANY, MANY Turks. Stop going in circles. We get what your saying, now understand what we're saying, bro.

Nothing is new for me too that you have written above. I read many times on this site that Turks didn’t know anything but Armenians knew everything, so Turks envied them and commited genocide.

Is that what you understood from what I said? Seriously, read it ALL again. I was talking about YOU, not Turks. Also, you aren't Armenian, you don't completely understand the Genocide (it's not your fault), so naturally Armenians will know more about their own history then you unless you try to understand it yourself. The facts I stated though were simple facts that anyone could find out and if you didn't, I'm not going to say you have great knowledge about Turkish relations when you don't. You've read the highlited portions alone so stop saying that I'm saying you know less then me. I never said that.

This approach is very simple and would be used for degrading Turkish people at this forum by nationalist Armenians years ago.

I'm "degrading" the Turkish people suddenly? You seriously didn't understand what I was saying, OK.

And I can say that such things were told by Nazis for Jews too. I read in Hitler’s book “Meine Kampf” that he talked about Jews in such a way. I am not saying that you are a fashist or nationalist Armenian, but your words go to the same kind of mentality.

Which words would that be, Eti? The facts? Your problem is, you read books in a straight forward way, if you get what I mean, and then you try to understand everything. No one is saying you understand less, you just haven't read enough. Reading Turkish history isn't enough to understand what happened. Many chuncks of history aren't EVEN THERE. I'm saying read from the right sources, try to understand, don't just read and then begin quoting.

Sometimes things go inverse and so, an Armenian begins to speak in such a nationalistic way that the only thing he / she tells is how Turks were barbaric and uneducated.

This is the truth, Eti, believe it or not. I'm not saying all Turks were like that, there were so many great people that simply make Turkey a place worth living in and without them, it might not be the same. Are you kidding me? Is that all you've got for an argument, that I'm saying Turks were all evil? There were Turks I wouldn't trade with anyone. You don't realise in what tone of voice I'm talking to you.

Because, in fact, this is what he / she all knows about Turks.

Really? Is that what you think? Are you forgetting that we've lived side by side with Turks for centuries? Do you think we all on this forum simply blame blindly without knowledge, without studying, without understanding? If you do, you're seriously in for a rude awakening?

Anyways, to despise a nation requires a lot of responsibility and also to blame a nationality for something needs a lot of information, of course.

Eh, Akhper, vor tents liner. No one here despises Turkey, we despise what the Turks did and still do. And don't worry we have A LOT of information, enough to make Turkey ban the internet and every site related to Armenia, lol. Eti, you don't realise what we think or how we see things, you just think we're talking rudely here to make you feel bad. Wake up. The Turks didn't think, didn't feel, didn't see, when they commited Genocide, there is no reason good enough to excuse the Turks, accept that and you'll understand. Until you don't stop searching for reasons, you'll always be in doubt and you will always think that the Armenians always degraded the Turks and do so till today. You accept the Genocide but try to twist the facts (a little bit). This issue is dealt with, your forgetting that, and that's what everyone is so afraid of. Our ancestors WILL be remembered Eti, I say this as a person, not an extremist or whatever you'd love to call me right now. Every issue needs to be dealt with and Turkey isn't acting properly, till now. That's why they have so many problems. They know their lying and their trying EVERYTHING to get rid of the Genocide.

Too bad it's coming closer that way.

[ardakilic]

Kudos Ardakilic and not because I feel good that a Turk accepted that fact and I grin evily but because we stand on the same solid ground and understand each other. By the way, where have you been? We've been waiting for you.

Thanks for your interest Saco. I was in some activities and a dense duration for reading and writing. I was focused on 1912-1938 era of Turkey and tried to solve "Kemalism problem". Anyway, nice to be with you again.

[ardakilic]

Actually, I have not heard such a thing that Turkish government wants to erect Ataturks statue in a country. I read newspapers daily and nobody has mentioned about such a thing. I am growing suspicious about this case, this must be another speculation I think.

Eti, isn't it weird that for foreign state authorities who has come Turkey, it is a obligatory protocol rule to visit Anitkabir?

Even in Iran, there is no such rule, for example visiting Humeyni's tomb?

And one more point: M. Kemal was the first dictator who erected his statues in all over the country, i mean Turkey.