Ataturks statue in Israel

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Steph and Vahe, Armenian genocide was planned by a few leaders and executed by a part of Ottoman Army and also many killings performed by Kurdish gangs and the rest died becasue of bad conditions, but, not by a nation. Any nation on this world can not be considered a criminal or murderer. You can make all the countries of the world recognize AG, but you can’t load all the responsibility to a nation.

For example, Germans were not responsible for Jewish genocide, but some leaders: Hitler, Joseph Goebels, Martin Bormann, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg etc. except a few of them because of dying or suicide; they were blamed for the Jewish genocide and tried from 1945 to 1949 in Nuremberg Trials, then hanged. But German people were not responsible, they were not all tried and hanged. At the most, you can blame the Nazi Party but not all Germans.

You are missing one very important point: the Germans recognized the Holocaust, and raised memorials to victims, when turks NATIONWHIDE deny the Genocide. DENIEL OF GENOCIDE IS THE LAST STAGE OF GENOCIDE PERFORMED BY THE TURKISH NATION.

[Edoman]

Message to Turks

Nothing worse than a society living in a nation that is detached with their own identity. For now you may worship your false God and continue building his statues.
Not to worry, ironically it will be your blood enemy who will set you free by forcing you to face your realities. Sometimes justice is best served cold.

[Steph]

Steph and Vahe, Armenian genocide was planned by a few leaders and executed by a part of Ottoman Army and also many killings performed by Kurdish gangs and the rest died becasue of bad conditions, but, not by a nation.

Your posts increasingly give the impression that you are actually a denier of the Genocide. The Genocide was the culmination of official plans and actions from at least 1895 through 1923. The entire turkish establishment was involved, with very few exceptions. The ottoman/turkish army was instrumental in the Genocide, it's planning and implementation. Kurds were involved in killings, but not exclusively, they were bribed by turks with promises of Armenian possessions and such.
Your use of "ottoman" in descibing the perpetrators is noticeable, ottoman=turk=ottoman.

For example, Germans were not responsible for Jewish genocide, but some leaders: Hitler, Joseph Goebels, Martin Bormann, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, Alfred Rosenberg etc. except a few of them because of dying or suicide; they were blamed for the Jewish genocide and tried from 1945 to 1949 in Nuremberg Trials, then hanged. But German people were not responsible, they were not all tried and hanged. At the most, you can blame the Nazi Party but not all Germans.

Who then smashed the synagogues on Kristallnacht? Who then boycotted Jewish shops and businesses? Who then beat Jews in the streets? Who then filled the ranks of the Einsatzgruppen? Who then pulled the trigger? Who then fired the buildings? Who then herded the women & children into the gas chambers? Who then dropped the poison tablets into the chambers? Who then?
The plans were decided by the elite few, carried out by the many, very many.
Have you read of the early Einsatzgruppen acting in Poland, made up primarily of ordinary, everyday policemen, supposed upholders of the law! But of course, the law had been changed.
All Germans knew of the Holocaust, almost all participated, all were guilty. The difference is that they acknowledged their guilt, apologised and gave penance and some recompense.

Anyways, to despise a nation requires a lot of responsibility and also to blame a nationality for something needs a lot of information, of course.

I can understand the difficulty you must have in accepting that your forefathers were involved in such a monstrous act as the Genocide. Such horrors were carried out that for someone today it is nearly incomprehensible that the older generation of your nation were involved. But involved they were.
Eti, I've lived in Germany and have many German friends, some of the older folk I met and grew close to surprised me when they told me they'd been SS. Hard to see the youthful murderer in the old chaps face, but look deep and it's there. Look around you.

[hipeter924]

Well in any genocide there are those who are guilty, partly responsible or working to stop it. Those Turks that tried to help the Armenians were brutally punished by the Turkish government, to most Turks it was logical then (as it was in the Jewish holocaust) to blindly believe and act on what their government told them. The denial of the Armenian genocide is the Turks trying to forget it ever happened, because what was done was shameful. But I think its more shameful to hide the truth, and reshape history to make a falsehood.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

I have returned

So time to start posting again

Nothing is new for me too that you have written above. I read many times on this site that Turks didn’t know anything but Armenians knew everything, so Turks envied them and commited genocide. This approach is very simple and would be used for degrading Turkish people at this forum by nationalist Armenians years ago. And I can say that such things were told by Nazis for Jews too. I read in Hitler’s book “Meine Kampf” that he talked about Jews in such a way. I am not saying that you are a fashist or nationalist Armenian, but your words go to the same kind of mentality. Sometimes things go inverse and so, an Armenian begins to speak in such a nationalistic way that the only thing he / she tells is how Turks were barbaric and uneducated. Because, in fact, this is what he / she all knows about Turks. Anyways, to despise a nation requires a lot of responsibility and also to blame a nationality for something needs a lot of information, of course.

Eti, I think if anyone on this forum are Nazi sympathisers I would have noticed it, being half Mexican (Native American) Nazis usually don't offer us cookies and tea and invite us to watch the soccer.
To say that Turkey is not responsible for Ottoman actions and giving a few people excuse etc etc etc is ridiculous as the modern Turkish state was built by many of the people who helped kill Armenians, remember that this was an official order, it was planned not a random event perpetrated by a few guys who were not dealing with a full deck of cards, no these were soldiers who helped to do this, in fact a majority of the military I'd say did commit the genocide, in addition please remember the Turkish Armenian war that followed was nothing but an excuse to take Armenian land for Turkey, hence Kemal and those guys still looked down on the Armenians and there was a certain amount of hatred towards them.

Now saying that military actions commenced to stop an Armenian homeland being created is ridiculous, the actual reason I'd wager my viheula on is due to the pan Turanic thought and the Sun Theory crap.
Also please remember that most of modern day Armenia is what was known as Eastern Armenia, which was part of the Persian then Russian empires, Turkey has little to do with it.

Now trust on this, Saco does not hate Turks, neiter does anyone on this forum, once again our Turkish brother Ardakilic is a fine example of the fact that Armenians and Turks as an ethnic group can easily be friends, in fact I'd say people like Ardakilic is a prime example of the kind of people we need in this world.

The point you also need to realise Eti is that the government of Turkey still has oppressive laws such as article 301, its banned in Turkey to say there is a genocide (see Orhan Pamuk), therefore this over nationalistic trend is still in place, also please note that Kemalism is also a huge problem besides the many obvious, in that fact that is a cult of personality. Like Stalin, Like Hitler, Like Videla

Sometimes justice is best served cold.

Sounds like a Kill Bill quote bro, are you fan?

[ardakilic]

Pedro and other firends,

Probably you realized that fact but once more i thought it should be better to tell:

You can make Turkish people abdicate from their religion by proposing some philosophical ideas, you can make Turkish people abdicate Ottoman history by positioning some historical facts... Turkish people can leave many items that consists their identity. But, they cannot overthrow idol of M. Kemal in their mentality. I always compare this fact Stcokholm Syndrome.

You know, we, as Turks, fell in love with our executioner.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Ardakilic

I get what you are saying completely bro, but I personally think a large part about this mentality is the Turkish Government, alot of people if they weren't being brainwashed by the government since an early age would have started to see that Kemal like any other man had faults, in fact maybe a little more than others. The thing is Turkey's official position is that Armenians are lying to cause unrest and take land from Turkey and this is parroted to everyone,
couple this misinformation in the media as well and we can quickly see how Kemal is put across a demigod.

However this goes back to what I was saying, you are not like that, you are Turkish yet you support the recognition of the Armenian genocide, you probably were told the same crap the government comes out with, yet you didn't believe their lies. Thats why I am saying man we need people like you in this world and it gives hope that one day Turks and Armenians (and other people, etc.) can maybe be friends, so thanks for that man

[Sako]

I second that. And Pedro, welcome back, it's good to see you again, bro.

[Steph]

Pedro and other firends,

Probably you realized that fact but once more i thought it should be better to tell:

You can make Turkish people abdicate from their religion by proposing some philosophical ideas, you can make Turkish people abdicate Ottoman history by positioning some historical facts... Turkish people can leave many items that consists their identity. But, they cannot overthrow idol of M. Kemal in their mentality. I always compare this fact Stcokholm Syndrome.

You know, we, as Turks, fell in love with our executioner.

Good point.

[Eti]

Okey, I have read all of your posts, but it is not possible to reply everything here bur some of my statements will be replies of course.

Firstly, you must know that I am not a denier (probably most of you realized). So I am not an ordinary Turkish citizen trying to understand the facts from nationalist Turkish resources. I have never bother myself to read such books because they are so ridiculous.

But, of course like the other kids, I was always taught that the Turkish history is full of heroism and also the hospitality tolerance that were always extended to the none-muslims. Of course these things are rudiculous, as much as such things that suggest the opposite and biased or negative ideas. The thing that I do here to look back on the past OBJECTIVELY. But an ordinary Turk in this site know the history from the school lessons; as mostly a heroism and tolerance history, and he / she simply thinks that all the Armenians and others just want to take advantage of its collapse. This also is ridiculous of course.

You expect that Turkey should act like Germany, France etc. However, you forget that (although a lot of difficulities) Turkey has almost 90 years historical past and is still trying to be a democracy since 1948, to set up a more democratic system. This takes a lot of time, so you have to wait a few decades more.

As Ardakilic does, many people inside and outside, criticize Ataturk in such a hard way. But we have to know that it is not an easy thing to convert a state from “an Islamic Monarchy to a Secular Democracy.”

They want to get rid of Arabs, so they did. How they behave Arab people is also bad, but of course as not much as they behave to Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians. BUt this is not for they love Arabs, because they dont care simply.

In Turkey there were / are a little number of people whose origins have been from Arabs most of them live in Hatay, Kilis, Adana, Urfa, Gaziantep today. They still live there and were never deported to anywhere.

Who said the ENTIRE nation was responsible, Eti, calm down, you misunderstand us here. Also, when you say "A part" of the Ottomon army, it wasn't a part of it, it was the entire army. Armenians were in many places, not just one region. Myabe not ALL the soldiers but 90% of them. In war, do half the soldiers stay back? Also, the Turks wanted to get rid of the Armenians fast, how could they if they sent only half of their soldiers?

I was talking about events of 1915, so during the WW I, Ottoman Empire was fighting in a few fronts, in west, east and south and there were also wars of Çanakkale in 1915, so it is impossible to say that 90% percent of the army involved in AG. Of course a part of it involved.

Eti, isn't it weird that for foreign state authorities who has come Turkey, it is a obligatory protocol rule to visit Anitkabir?

This is a traditon of the Turkish Republic, it is rather tradition than being obligatory. I also don’t understand why muslims go to the hajj (to Mecca) and walk around the Kaaba, but I respect their holy acts and don’t criticize this. Every country has its own traditions and when a foreign state aurhorities pay a official visit to a country they are supposed to extend some respect to their some precious things.

Your posts increasingly give the impression that you are actually a denier of the Genocide. The Genocide was the culmination of official plans and actions from at least 1895 through 1923. The entire turkish establishment was involved, with very few exceptions. The ottoman/turkish army was instrumental in the Genocide, it's planning and implementation. Kurds were involved in killings, but not exclusively, they were bribed by turks with promises of Armenian possessions and such.
Your use of "ottoman" in descibing the perpetrators is noticeable, ottoman=turk=ottoman.

Though I appreciate it as genocide you say I am denier. So, this proves again that I was not wrong when I said that “you have biased thoughts about Turkey and Turks and you always tend to believe in negative things about Turkey.”

I don’t posses everything that Ottomans did and had, actually nothing, as a Turkish citizen. The Satate of Ottomans doesn’t exist since 1923, Turkey has just inherited some culturel things from the empire. Though Westerners still image Turkey like an Arab country as if that stands on deserts; there are many differences, especially official diffeerences, between Turkey and Ottoman State.

Such events like Armenian genocide can not be inherited, the only thing that Turkey can do is to try to compansate it in some ways, but this will not be like Germans did I think. There are differences between the two events, to say that "they are simply genocides" is wrong.

Have you read of the early Einsatzgruppen acting in Poland, made up primarily of ordinary, everyday policemen, supposed upholders of the law! But of course, the law had been changed.

All Germans knew of the Holocaust, almost all participated, all were guilty. The difference is that they acknowledged their guilt, apologised and gave penance and some recompense.

You are making me tell the same thing again: A nation can not be responsible for such a thing, but leaders. This is not my opinion, this is legally, ethically and politically accepted on all around the world that is universally.

Leaders decide / plan and do and the mass groups of people follow thier leaders and do it blindly, without thinking, it is a social instinct. Hitler made the most of the Germans believe in his ideas and dreams. This is shocking and hard to understand today, but they followed him blindly. I am sure most of them then realized that what a big mistake they did.

The denial of the Armenian genocide is the Turks trying to forget it ever happened, because what was done was shameful. But I think its more shameful to hide the truth, and reshape history to make a falsehood.

This is the point that what I always wanted to tell in this site. There are of course differences between Eastern and Western communities. You appear to understand it a bit. In eastern cultures (among ordinary people and in their tradional way of punishment), if you accept your guilt, your punishment is increased to higher level, but the most importantly, you are declared as the one of the most infamous person of the society. So, to be denier is always the easiest and safer way for a criminal. Westerners or someone who has been grown up in a western culture, have the difficulites to understand this.

To say that Turkey is not responsible for Ottoman actions and giving a few people excuse etc etc etc is ridiculous as the modern Turkish state was built by many of the people who helped kill Armenians, remember that this was an official order, it was planned not a random event perpetrated by a few guys who were not dealing with a full deck of cards, no these were soldiers who helped to do this, in fact a majority of the military I'd say did commit the genocide, in addition please remember the Turkish Armenian war that followed was nothing but an excuse to take Armenian land for Turkey, hence Kemal and those guys still looked down on the Armenians and there was a certain amount of hatred towards them.

Is there another way to say other than that? “it was committed by Ottomans, bacause it was planned by Ottoman administration and committed by Ottoman Army.” Of course as a continuation of the empire, Turkey has some responsibilities for sure.

You know, we, as Turks, fell in love with our executioner.

Show me an example of execution that Ataturk did, except the execution of some extremist muslims during the liberation war from 1919 to 1922. During a war or a revolutionary war, it is inevitable to do such things, as it was done in French, Russian revolution or any other less important revolutions or movements that happened such as in Iran.

Especially the elites of big western countries loved to introduce the communist leaders as executioners and dictators. This was a one of the political pronunciations for their advantages on the world or in their countries. It is a very easy way to accuse Ataturk of being dictator, executioner etc. In today’s Turkey there are people who like to do so.