Discussion Thread

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

If not now, when? If not here, where? If not you, who?

brilliant!!!!

[Gavur]

I.F. Stone: "The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins. In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose. You mustn't feel like a martyr. You've got to enjoy it."

[Gavur]

Noam Chomsky: "There are no magic answers, no miraculous methods to overcome the problems we face, just the familiar ones: honest search for understanding, education, organization, action that raises the cost of state violence for its perpetrators or that lays the basis for institutional change -- and the kind of commitment that will persist despite the temptations of disillusionment, despite many failures and only limited successes, inspired by the hope of a brighter future."

[Gavur]

Sam Smith: "Those who think history has left us helpless should recall the abolitionist of 1830, the feminist of 1870, the labor organizer of 1890, and the gay or lesbian writer of 1910. They, like us, did not get to choose their time in history but they, like us, did get to choose what they did with it. Knowing what we know now about how these things turned out, but also knowing how long it took, would we have been abolitionists in 1830, or feminists in 1870, and so on?"

[lal]

lal,

41 of 50 U.S states "have by legislation or proclamation, recognized the Armenian Genocide".(CLICK HERE)

It will only be a matter of time before a U.S President recognizes the Armenian Genocide.

But I must say that I have difficult to understand you here.On the one hand you want Turkey to recognize th AG and on the other hand you don`t want other countries to do the same?Do you really expect that countries should wait to recognize the AG until Turkey does it?Or what are you trying to say?Or does this concern only USA?

Feel free to explain.

turkish state probably will never recognise the AG. we have to go step by step. first more turks must listen what armenians say. then borders must open,more turists must travel each other, more trade must happen,karabağ problem must end in peace among azeri and armenia.more and more turkish individually people must apologise for the AG. and finally turkish state must apologise.

for diaspora it is the biggest goal and victory to make the president of usa to call it genocide. but ı doubt if it will help us ,friendly turks,armenia armenians and azeris living in this area of the world.this recognition may help turkish state to promote even a bigger armenian enemy image.

my opinions will not change about AG ofcourse. but now,armenia will be considered even a bigger evil enemy in turkey.your victory maybe our loss here.

[Steph]

ı am against usa using the word ''genocide'' at least in 2009. already 90% of turks dislike american politics today. main reason is the invasion of ıraq which resulted an uncontrolled area in northern ıraq where pkk attack and harm turkey.using the word ''genocide'' will cause a big crisis among turkey and usa which may cause turkey to completely shift its political direction from usa by the pressure of frustrated turkish people. obama is the last hope for saving turkey-america relations. and this chance must not be waisted.

armenians who only want to harm turkey and only run after vendetta may demand a legal recognition by usa president. but armenians who only want turkey to apologise and start a good relationship between turks and armenians must not support this. this will stop the newly started efforts of reconciliation.

ı know it is difficult to do so. but if ı can openly and loudly defend armenians in turkey,there must be some armenians who have commonsense to reach the peacefull end.

Lal, you can use these arguments regarding the "right time" for USA to recognise the AG because of complicating the situation with turkey. But, that's only an excuse, delay,delay,delay. turkey's strategic situation is not as strong as it was during the Cold War, USA has other options in the region, albeit more difficult than turkey, but options nevertheless. Israel is propping up USA support for turkey and one day this will end too. Where goes turkey then?
Your emphasis is that Armenians should stop pressurising for recognition, "Armenia should do this, do that, do whatever".
Actually only turkey needs to do something....
........RECOGNISE THE GENOCIDE........


End of.

[lal]

Lal, you can use these arguments regarding the "right time" for USA to recognise the AG because of complicating the situation with turkey. But, that's only an excuse, delay,delay,delay. turkey's strategic situation is not as strong as it was during the Cold War, USA has other options in the region, albeit more difficult than turkey, but options nevertheless. Israel is propping up USA support for turkey and one day this will end too. Where goes turkey then?
Your emphasis is that Armenians should stop pressurising for recognition, "Armenia should do this, do that, do whatever".
Actually only turkey needs to do something....
........RECOGNISE THE GENOCIDE........


End of.

ı dont say that turkey is strategicly very important country that usa will harm herself if accepts the genocide. actually ı like turkey not to be strategicly important country and also not to be allies with usa.

but turkey and unfortunately turkish people is not going to accept the genocide if usa presidents calls it a genocide. because among turkish people usa is not considered a friendly country. usa in turkey is considere as a hidden imperialist enemy . so enemy becomes more enemy now, thats all. the borders will not be open, karabağ will not be solved, no turizm no trade between armenia and turkey, newly started friendship and dialogs will finish,ı will not be able to defend armenians in turkey loudly. what good will it be to us.


you think usa presidents acceptance of AG, will help turkey to confess her past crimes. and ı say just the opposite.

so,while diaspora armenians enjoy their victory there,we will go into deep silence again here.

[Steph]

you think usa presidents acceptance of AG, will help turkey to confess her past crimes. and ı say just the opposite.

I agree with you here lal, turkey and only turkey can decide regarding recognition. the turkish people have to change the way turkey is run as a state in the 21st century. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon.
On this subject there are 3 categories of turk, 2 who actually recognise the AG.

The first is people such as yourself,Arda, Hitite etc. Bless you.
The second are the ones who occasionally post hate here, on Youtube and elsewhere, we've had a visitor from these types today.
The third group, unfortunately the largest, follow the state line of denial.

As Vahe says, make you Minister for Education and over time things might change.

[Alexandros]

Originally Posted by lal
ı am against usa using the word ''genocide'' at least in 2009. already 90% of turks dislike american politics today. main reason is the invasion of ıraq which resulted an uncontrolled area in northern ıraq where pkk attack and harm turkey.using the word ''genocide'' will cause a big crisis among turkey and usa which may cause turkey to completely shift its political direction from usa by the pressure of frustrated turkish people. obama is the last hope for saving turkey-america relations. and this chance must not be waisted.

armenians who only want to harm turkey and only run after vendetta may demand a legal recognition by usa president. but armenians who only want turkey to apologise and start a good relationship between turks and armenians must not support this. this will stop the newly started efforts of reconciliation.

ı know it is difficult to do so. but if ı can openly and loudly defend armenians in turkey,there must be some armenians who have commonsense to reach the peacefull end.

turkish state probably will never recognise the AG. we have to go step by step. first more turks must listen what armenians say. then borders must open,more turists must travel each other, more trade must happen,karabağ problem must end in peace among azeri and armenia.more and more turkish individually people must apologise for the AG. and finally turkish state must apologise.

for diaspora it is the biggest goal and victory to make the president of usa to call it genocide. but ı doubt if it will help us ,friendly turks,armenia armenians and azeris living in this area of the world.this recognition may help turkish state to promote even a bigger armenian enemy image.

my opinions will not change about AG ofcourse. but now,armenia will be considered even a bigger evil enemy in turkey.your victory maybe our loss here.

Let me quote some excerpts from two articles:

In the end, of course, the Turkish parliament, on March 1, 2003, surprised both the Turkish and American governments by voting against allowing U.S. troops to enter northern Iraq from Turkish soil. The only concession to the U.S. was the opening of Turkish airspace to American warplanes, both to transport troops and to carry supplies. This totally unexpected recalcitrance resulted in the worst-of-all-possible outcomes for the U.S.: the possibility of using Turkey as the model for the reconstruction of Middle East governments and societies had been effectively eliminated, and Turkey’s participation in the Iraq war was far smaller and restricted than had been anticipated.

Source

The story cited the example of the resurfacing of tensions when Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld indirectly blamed Turkey for the strength of the insurgency in Iraq during an interview on FOX News Sunday last month. Another example cited were the remarks that came two days after the March 18 resignation of U.S. Ambassador to Turkey Eric Edelman.

"Given the level of insurgency today, two years later, clearly if we had been able to get the 4th Infantry Division in from the north through Turkey, more of Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime would've been captured or killed," Rumsfeld had said, referring to the Turkish Parliament's refusal to allow coalition troops to enter Iraq from Turkey.

"Had Turkey cooperated the insurgency today would have been less," he added.

Source

As you can see, the Turkish parliament rejected to allow "U.S. troops to enter northern Iraq from Turkish soil".Did Turkey care about the public opinion in USA - which was at that time in favour of the Iraq war - I dont think so, right?

By waiting to use the word "genocide" - because of the public opinion in Turkey - is I`m afraid one more way to deny the AG.

[lal]

Let me quote some excerpts from two articles:





As you can see, the Turkish parliament rejected to allow "U.S. troops to enter northern Iraq from Turkish soil".Did Turkey care about the public opinion in USA - which was at that time in favour of the Iraq war - I dont think so, right?

By waiting to use the word "genocide" - because of the public opinion in Turkey - is I`m afraid one more way to deny the AG.

ı dont want to be misunderstood here.ı only tell my opinion . ı might be wrong. ı dont have to agree with everything you say, but, if you people think that recognition of AG by the president of usa will help turkey to admit it and open the dialog and bring peace and cure the pains between turkey and armenia and azerbeycan, so be it.

okay. are you happy now my dear?