Discussion Thread

[Sako]

ı read all you write. but ı cant understand your solutions.
how shall we make turkish people and turkey to accept AG? by force???

Lal Jan, first of all I would love it if you relaxed and asked me what it is you don't understand. I said many things, please make that clear for me. Ask me anything you like and I promise to answer from my heart and mind which I always try to do .

Next, I'm sorry if my posts are long. I'm a fast typer and I'm a writer to some extent you can say so please bare with a writers habit, lol. I try to make myself as clear as possible and sometimes go too far, making things a bit unclear perhaps.

Considering your question, whether force should be used, I can only say NO. Not force but serious action must be taken. Turkey isn't neutral in her actions, she is taking this issue backwards not forward and simply waiting or starting to simply talk nicely will not suffice. I’ll tell you why further down. In some cases, we may have to all become VERY serious, stern and on target or else the real Turks will take advantage of all of us, me AND you. This issue is not simple enough to be solved with only words. That’s my point.

during my parent’s time, turks and greeks hated each other. turkey invaded northern cyprus. we could have gone into a total war anytime...america put a hard ambargo on turkey. nothing is solved. today all the problems still exist. border problems in agean sea, airspace problems,turkish soldier is still in cyprus , but strangely these problems are no more taken so seriously and can be solved anytime and there is 0% chance of war. why? because people met each other and realised that ordinary ,simple people are same all over the world. a strong earthquaqe happened and greeks came to our help. it was very quick ,they were the first ones came,they were very generous,very natural. they cried for our losses. and everything finished. evil greek (not less than evil armenian)became an old good friend now. and the governments just had to follow public opinion. it didnt take centuries. it all happened in few months.

Very good point and I understand your argument, really, I do. What you forget though is that the Turks didn't invade us, they tried to kill us all. The Greeks cried when the Turks got into an earthquake but when 100,000 Armenians were crushed under the rubble in 1989, did the Turks come? I don't know so I won't say I'm 100% sure but I very much doubt it. The Cyprus issue isn't a century old either, Lal. No one tried to hide that. The Genocide has been hidden for decades and making it clear will require serious action, many don't believe it happened and many simply hear pathetic people tell them lies and believe them completely. The Turks have spoiled this new generation. Also, you say when America poked its nose into the Cyprus issue by placing an embargo on Turkey, everything stopped basically but the problems remained. That's true, but it gave you all a chance to think and move on. Because of that, everything is peaceful now and there is a 0% chance of war. If America didn't come in, you think everything would be fine and dandy? You would still have the chance to talk with each other? I kind of doubt it but don't get the impression that I'm an American, I'm just saying what I'm thinking like you. America has MANY problems but I’m talking about what they did only in the case of Cyprus for now.

You forget that the Cyprus issue can't even be compared with the Armenian issue, that's why it was so easily solved. Our issue has gone through a lot over the years, a lot of change and hate has been involved. Turkey has done too much damage to its own people and the Armenians have witnessed and stomached all of it with great difficulty whether they liked it or not. We stand in a very difficult situation and very few other situations/events that are taking place can come close to ours right now presently. Very deadly politics are involved and we CAN'T even get the chance to talk peacefully with each other. And those that can are very few compared to the loads of Turks out there that simply hate Armenians. Many haven't even talked to Armenians and still hate us and make their children feel the same sometimes without even knowing what happened. Cyprus is a small nation with not such a huge population. People in Cyprus got the chance to talk with Turks and believe me, many, many, many Armenians are ready to work with Turks right now but Turkey won't give us that chance. Stop looking at the small majority of Armenians who are angry at Turks and all. We can change their views and we already are but changing the Turks won't be easy. Especially their attitude. Not everyone is like you, Arda, Ferdi, Eti, etc.

we can follow the same friendly path. why do you wait turkey to accept the genocide to travel turkey. turkey is always your home country. we must start cultural and friendly dialogs. so when you sit and drink with a turkish friend ,you nicely ask her/him about the genocide. why villages, women,children and elders were eliminated? you will be surprised to realise how ashamed he will be?

I promise to come one day if you'll promise to show me around and it's not like I'm waiting for Turkey to recognize anything to travel there. You'd be surprised by some of the connections I have with Turkey. Sorry though, Lal, I kinda don't imagine a Turk sitting before me and hanging his head. You think they won't feel any anger, or wierd feelings by doing so? Many think that if they agree with us, we will be superior to them or something, which is BS. Of course there are many, many people like the ones you described from whom I wish the Armenians could even in many ways learn something from but these Turks aren't enough, they don't even count as a less then average majority of the Turkish population all over the world. They are very few. How many can we help? Cyprus isn't a gigantic nation, even compared to Armenia, that’s why you could with some difficulties talk with each other and work things out, but Turkey is huge with a population of over 45 million and Armenia has a population of over 3 million only in Armenia. Cyprus is just over 600,000. I'm saying there are too many people for us to simply begin talking with each other nicely. This won’t be enough to fix this issue. Also, that is happening already, Lal, don't doubt that, it's not like your offering something new. Your offer is easier said then done when we talk about the majority but it is happening more or less around the world, people ARE talking. But it's not changing much, it only makes a few Turks more friendly with a few Armenians who have in many cases completely given up on helping this issue get cleared up. They just smile for themselves which I repsect and that's good for a few individuals but not two whole countries. The politics have an upper hand nowadays. That is my point. If the current situation wasn’t so difficult and if Turkey hadn’t done so much in and after the Genocide, your offer might’ve actually been very effective but now, your offer won’t be enough to clear this issue up. That is the cold, hard truth, Lal. I feel terrible saying this but it’s the truth that we must all face to move on. I don’t know exactly what will get us out of this but only talking with each other won’t help. We need a hard push from the back to get this going properly. Right now though, without that push, your words will simply be going into the archives of armeniangenocide.com. I hope you understand what I’m saying. I’m not against your offer even a bit.

we have similar habits,similar music,similar food. armenians are artists. we have armenian signs everywhere in anatolia. we lived side by side so long.yes, turks made terrible things. if armenians can forgive, they will be big not turks,and may get a real friend. ım sure about this. armenians must not stay in the darkness,they must show themselves to turks. we must remember them before history and time divide us for ever. this is much more important than getting a half mouthed apologise of the turkish state.

I agree and disagree. First off, Armenians aren’t the ones in the darkness, they are a bit angry sometimes but not in the darkness. They are ready to forgive but give us a damn reason to forgive. The way you talk, you seem to be asking us to take all the steps. Go onto a Turkish forum and experimentally introduce your offer and you'll see why it won't work. You’d be REALLY surprised how many Armenians though are moving on and trying hard as hell to change what's happening, their the ones you don’t know about. It’s the Turks that need to move on mostly, I think we can all agree with this. There are so many Turks. You think you can convince all of them by simply talking nicely? I fear for you, Lal, not because your views are wrong (they aren’t) but because you don’t realize among whom you live. The enemy is from within the borders of Turkey, not in Armenia. We are showing ourselves to Turks, Lal Jan, but Turkey won’t even allow Turks in general to see us. They close everyone’s eyes physically, mentally, and politically. This is a fact I want you to understand. It’s that simple. I’m not offering you the solution, (that’s not easy) I’m explaining the situation to you because that is what you and many don’t understand and underestimate. Once you understand this, you will understand what is going on and what is realistic and unrealistic.

A half-mouthed apology may not be what we want and we will not rest until we get a full apology but if people start to apologize, if drastic steps are taken forward, we will first get a half-mouthed apology and then a full apology, like it or not, because the Genocide isn’t going anywhere and neither are we. We have waited for too long. If you have the power to change the views of even 100 Turks, I will be proud of you and will personally run to your house and congratulate you. You have to remember though that changing views will take A LOT of time and not everyone has the will power to sit here like me and you to help or try and change something AFTER they believe you. Many might believe you but not all of them will try to change the views of other Turks. Also, in many cases, what you say will enter a Turks ear and come out of the other ear when he/she logs off the internet. I can go on and on giving you thousands of reasons. What you want will be practical when we have an ample opportunity but right now, regrettably, we don't have that complete opportunity and forums can only help so much. We need a direct aproach. Your offer also requires people to get together and talk on the internet. In that case, remember that many Turks are illiterate (I feel very sad about that of course ) many don't have access to the net, and those that do are sometimes afraid of talking because the government might find them. Many sites are also walled up so Turks can't enter them and many Turks don't know English or Armenian and can't naturally read facts or articles or understand what me and you are saying right now. You, like Ferdi, simply gave a great idea and I, as a person who wants to see it happen, can't be unrealistic. I have to take everything into account.

dear saco,

please dont think that ı am a standard turk who defends his countries honour and makes excuses. because ım not so. ı love armenians. and ı really do. ım your friend and feel total sympathy to your struggles.you are right. and it is very difficult to be an armenian in this world.

Lal Jan, no one hear hates you and I sure as hell don't hate you. Please, throw that out of your mind. I appreciate and respect you just the way you are and I wouldn't want you to be any different. Real respect means respecting someone for who they are and you have earned that respect along with many, many people here. I stand for what I say, don't ever doubt that. I feel and understand you more then you think or can imagine and I realise how difficult it is to be a Turkish girl in Turkey. We all are in a pickle here, not just Armenians. Sometimes I feel worse for Turks then Armenians and I want everything to be clear that's why for all of us.

ı hope everything goes well with you people.

love

lal

I hope everything goes great for you too, Lal, and all the Turkish citizens, I truly do. I fight both Armenians and Turks and it's not easy, I understand you and what you feel. This understanding should teach us to not underestimate what is going on, which is not always easy, but once we understand what's happening currently around us, we will know what to do, much better then we do now.

I hope you understood what I've been saying all this time Lal Jan which I said only after placing my feet in your shoes. I sense something very big coming and I wish the Turkish and Armenian people good luck, they'll need it, all the luck they can get.

[Edoman]

To bell the cat

That's it exactly. Armenian diaspora activists in America, grown fat on easy pickings from their community, want the pot to start calling the kettle black. Given that the pot considers itself to be spotless, it is a worthless gesture. How many millions of people has America killed over the past few decades. Far more than Turkey during WW1. Over half of the American electorate voted for Bush when his criminal actions were clear to the rest of the world. Almost half still voted Republican in the last election (though the slimy Obama was responsible for some of that). Far more than half were in favour of their country's military adventures when things were going well. They have no guilt, they show no remorse. Maybe if America were to start to apologise for its own substantial crimes, Turkey will start to apologise for its. Americas state-level denial of the Armenian genocide has little to do with Turkey, it is mostly to do with lack of honour amongst American politicians - the same people whose belated recognition of the genocide Armenians seem to think will be so valuable.

Would you like to elaborate more about your uncontrolled ranting here. Do you blame Muslim on Muslim violence strictly on USA? I will be the first one to hold the Bush’s administration and their Neo-con buddies responsible for their mistakes in ME but to imply that America was out to kill millions of people without guilt nor remorse shows your blind hatred of US and how little you understand US politics and what the US constitution stands for. This is typical of Arab point of view who always blame their shortcomings on the US and Israel.

Turkey exterminates its own citizens; you don’t see US doing that, do you? No matter how much Turkey threatens Washington, bribes US officials and spends millions lobbying against the AG recognition in US it will not work forever. We don’t care if this makes no difference in Armenia/Turkish relations or if it is just symbolic or has no value.

WE WANT IT!! Is that simple enough to understand?

And we will get it, one way or another. There are many honorable Americans who back us up and the list is growing and the world is getting tired of this Turkish government’s appalling conduct in the world stage.

[Steph]

a strong earthquaqe happened and greeks came to our help. it was very quick ,they were the first ones came,they were very generous,very natural. they cried for our losses. and everything finished.

lal,
perhaps you don't know but when turkey suffered that earthquake, a relief team of Armenian specialists in earthquakes tried to enter turkey to offer assistance, BUT WERE REFUSED VISAS.

[Gavur]

ı have two questions.

how far turkish state has come?

and

and what kind of world wide pressure is on turkey?


my answers is, turkish president went to watch a football game in erivan. that far turkey has come. ( nothing about,hrant dinks murder or open the borders , accepting genocide can be a joke??)

and world wide pressure is ,france dont want turkey in eu, so they have an armenian genocide law.and obama recognizes it. so what kind of pressure is this? any ambargos?

if you think turkish state will accept AG, well may be. ı would be very happy. that will mean that turkey suddenly became a democracy like sweeden. ı hope so.


but ı dont want to hurt any armenian . anybody can think anyway they wish. ı personally have no hope about turkish state. so ı prefer diaologs between people. if we start to know each other again, individually turks like me will start to apologise.and some of you will forgive us.and we will slowly normalise and love each other again.

You may or not be right,but I'm not saying you're wrong;though,I don't like it when I'm catagorized and pigeonheld into your state's version of who I am and what I feel.

[imported_ferdi]

Not surprisingly there are strong feelings amongst Armenians of getting action sooner rather than later. This is understandable, it is still an emotive and painful issue even after the passing of so much time. Nevertheless, give Lal some credit for her analysis of geopolitical realities. I also feel that the best path to achieve recognition is to start at the grassroots level (a bottom up approach if you like) where individuals through collective pressure force the government to come to terms with its own history. Quite honestly this is the only way I can see the reconciliation process starting.

What won't happen:

Expecting the Turkish government to unilaterally acknowledge – never going to happen.

Expecting the Turkish government to acknowledge due to external political pressure i.e. Obama, French congress, EU etc – never going to happen (and even if they did, the acknowledgement wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on).

Expecting direct compensation, transfer payments or ceding territory to Armenia – never going to happen.

Expecting an apology for perpetrating the genocide – never going to happen (but see below).



What will happen (hopefully sooner rather than later):

Recognition (without admission to guilt to limit any possible legal liability).

Improvement in conditions and rights of Armenian and other minorities residing in Turkey as a result of recognition.

Protection and restoration of cultural and religious sites.

Regional security and trade/access guarantees to Armenia.

Goodwill gestures - Mt Ararat, right of return for diaspora etc.

Apology for "denying" the genocide.

[Edoman]

Look at it this way.

This is between US and Armenia. We want the United States of America to officially recognize the AG. This has nothing to do with Turkey recognizing anything. I personally don’t care what Turkey recognizes.
The right of return, compensation, and land are all different issues by themselves and should be treated separately from Turkish recognition of AG.

[imported_ferdi]

Look at it this way.

This is between US and Armenia. We want the United States of America to officially recognize the AG. This has nothing to do with Turkey recognizing anything. I personally don’t care what Turkey recognizes.
The right of return, compensation, and land are all different issues by themselves and should be treated separately from Turkish recognition of AG.

And no one could begrudge of you wanting that. But in terms of achieving actual results/benefits, every action has consequences and are not independent of each other. Likewise with Lal I believe it will do more harm than good and would be the equivalent of taking one step forward and two steps back. It will NOT improve the prospects for recognition in Turkey or provide the impetus for improving ties, trade, security, open borders with Armenia. It will embolden ultra nationalist, reduce the influence of those already working hard to improve ties and negate any attempts by the US to act as a broker for reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey. Unlike yourself, not everyone has the luxury of avoiding these realities.

And quite frankly the US is the wrong country for passing any kind of moral judgement for past or present events. I just hope that Turkey ignores it rather than reacting in the irrational manner that a lot of us are accustomed to.

[lal]

You may or not be right,but I'm not saying you're wrong;though,I don't like it when I'm catagorized and pigeonheld into your state's version of who I am and what I feel.

turkish state may catagorize armenians,but ım not doing that. actually ım not catagorizing nobody.

if ı were an armenian ,maybe ı would be very against all dialogs with turks and only desire to harm turkey.

if ı were an american armenian,probably ı would love to hear president calling it a genocide and dont think much about the consequences of it,in turkey and erivan.

if ı was a turkish mother and my son was killed in pkk fights, ı probably feel no symphaty to kurds and join turkish nationalists.

ı dont claim that there is only my path is correct. ı only write what ı think best for us.

we are the products of our envirenment. ı happen to be a peaceful turk because ı have not witnessed any undesirable acts in my life. thats why ı can feel the pains of others from my heart.

ı dont see you people as foreigners. you are my old neighbours. ı want all of you come back here.so simple.

and even if these are dreams,what is wrong with dreaming?

lal

[Steph]

Unlike yourself, not everyone has the luxury of avoiding these realities.

Very true, as I said earlier somewhere, most of us are very fortunate in being able to choose, lobby and agitate for our views/opinions.

And quite frankly the US is the wrong country for passing any kind of moral judgement for past or present events. I just hope that Turkey ignores it rather than reacting in the irrational manner that a lot of us are accustomed to.

It puzzles me why the "official turkey" should bother what other countries do or not do, if turkey were a suspect in a criminal case, it's behaviour screams guilty.
Whilst not being any great protector of the US, which country would be the right one for passing moral judgements? Where is this blessed nation?

[Joseph]

Continued Discussion Thread

Dear All:

I'm opening this thread as a continuation of the discussion thread under "Hillary Clinton".

Before we continue, I want to thank all of you for an open and honest dialouge - I hope to be able to contribute myself soon- and I ask that all of you continue to argue, communicate, etc without insults and name-calling which you have been able to do for the most. This has truly been a very enlightening and beneficial dialouge. Thank you.