What should Turkey be proud of?

[Sako]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

@Saco,
I thought that this thread was adressing to Armenians and you were aiming Armenians to look at Turks objectively. Had we written what we could be proud of, the thread would have been perceived as a propoganda tool and wouldn't have been read.

It wouldn’t. If I can feel proud of my country, so can you. Not allowing that is racist. I asked a friendly question and to hell what anyone thinks. Friendly relations between people will help this issue go forward, not backwards.

Although your intentions are good, it seems that this thread hasn't been embraced by the forum community.

Bro, I think it hasn’t mostly because people aren’t visiting too often. Even the members from this forum itself have left so don’t get any funny ideas. Don’t feel down or anything. And who cares who embraced my thread and who didn’t anyways? What’s important is the effort. I learned a couple of things myself from this thread and in the end, I asked the question. If you replied something worthwhile for example, I might’ve learned something more instead of having to explain why I started all this.

Stop looking at everything politically, it sucks your heart out. Let’s be human beings before being good Turks, Armenians, patriots, etc. I asked a simple question with a smile on my face and I got so-so answers that only diminished the face of Turkey. Your country is in your hands now. Try to impress me. A country is not represented by its land, culture, etc. It’s represented by its people. So if you don’t help/support your country, NO ONE WILL. You people have to start to look out of the box. The reason I started this thread is much greater then you think. Let’s just feel free and have a fun conversation. Am I asking for too much? Is that possible at all?

Seruven, I disagree. I, like Saco, would genuinely like to see what you (and other turks on this forum) have to say regarding concrete examples of Turkish pride.

Yes, but this isn’t a “my horse is bigger then your horse” challenge. Please, save me that crap. Like I said, this isn’t a political question.

So far, all the Turks have been silent on this question.

And for pretty much no reason. Don’t worry, we don’t bite, lol. Let’s get more together as a community. Let’s start conversations worth having. Not as Turks and Armenians but first and foremost as human beings. I am happy for any of Turkey’s proper achievements and I hope and ask for Turks to do the same. Enough with the political xxxx. The AG issue has to be resolved but it can only be resolved by starting to open our Goddamn mouths. Let’s start right now instead of hating each other. Let’s hate the ones that DESERVE to be hated.

[Sako]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

I am sure that there are jealousy but absolutely not for armenians and personally, I do not see any reason to become jealous of armenians. (I should add I have no reason to be proud of turkey too. That is why I do not answer your question.)

Don't hate your country, hate the ones that ruin it. I'm sure Turkey has good things to be proud of. I hope you don’t take anything personally Palvara. You’re words hint that you don’t think like most Turks out there or Armenians, or pretty much like them at all. For that reason, you don’t seem to understand where jealousy could/is coming from. I can give you enough examples to make your head spin but experience has shown that people start to think your bragging when you do that so please don’t ask me to do so. Our nation has the ability to stand next to almost any nation although it is so small. That alone is enough to cause jealousy. Your statement, “and personally, I do not see any reason to become jealous of armenians” shows just how little you know about Armenia and, forgive me if I’m wrong, how insignificant you think she is. If that’s what you think, you’re in for a rude awakening unfortunately and I’m not saying this in a grudging way.

I know my country better. It A turk say, There is armenian genocide, People at least, will ignore or care to listen him. If a french parliment say it, People will just become angry.. You cannot force it over Turks.

You know your country? I’m not saying everyone will believe the Genocide happened over one night, I’m saying it will be started by us if anyone at all. Turkey will never accept what happened and will not allow anyone else to. Look at your article 301 closely and you’ll get a better idea of where you live. Your right, you do know your country, but there is much you don’t know and much your country WON’T let you know.

I do not trust, because I am an opportunist and see all people and nations as opportunist
But Turks dont trust. All major factions at Turkey(islamist,nationalist turks, kemalist and nationalist kurds.) hate outsider. It is funny, all of these factions accuse EU or USA time to time.

Yes but the many people that don’t trust are already starting to not trust their own gov. If you don’t trust your gov. who are you going to trust then? Basically, many people are standing up Palvara, whether you believe it or not and those are the people that will help Turkey get back on its feet.
And one question, if you don’t trust anyone, where will the opportunity come from? You seem to be the person that walks away from everyone. An opportunist SEARCHES for an opportunity. He/She doesn’t wait for it to come and neither do we. And please save me the EU and USA speech, the world never started and will never end with the EU or the US. Trust never began from the US and all it rather seems to be ending there in many cases.

Again, you may not realize this but there are many Turks, many that I know, that are trying hard to make a change, looking out of the box. These people are the patriots, not the retards that hurt their own people. There are those kinds of people everywhere, I might add. Please don’t think I’m a racist saying Turkey is the only one to blame. We all have made mistakes, big or small, but some have accepted what they have done and some haven’t which is a much greater crime. We have lived with it for 93 years….how much longer can Turkey live with it?

No, reason is Turkey innerconflict and AKP. Diaspora have no effect. Diaspora just make it worse.

Eh tsavut tanem, vor tents liiinneeerrr. You really don’t seem to have read/heard/seen much. Turks have never been taught about the AG. If the Diaspora didn’t say anything, not much would have changed. How has it happened that countries around the world have recognized the AG, because of Turkey? Please, don’t make me laugh, my stomach hurts. I think you need to turn on a flashlight and go through history a bit and not Turkey’s version of the past. That’s more of a fairy tale that’s become too old.

Turkish goverment? You have least nationalist and most liberal(except ozal) goverment in Turkey.
Palvara, I requested you not to make me laugh. Don’t make me explain everything in detail, you might be scared to death. You seem like a very cheerful person without a care in the world. Unfortunately, this world isn’t that way. Wake up, read more, look at what’s happening. Do you really think everything we say is a lie?

If you attack castle, People just built it or protect it. People should leave castle with own wish. To bad, noone will leave castle If They believe that there are enemies outside of castle.

Oh they will leave the castle, don’t worry, and THEN we’ll break it down so our children will never have to go through the xxxx your government put the Turks and Armenians through, not to mention so many other nations. And just incase, your castle isn’t much to protect (which isn’t your country, by the way). It is your country’s fault that Turks view everyone as enemies, not ours. I have so many Turkish friends that don’t deserve to go through what they go through today and they are one of the reasons I won’t give up until justice is served.

[Palavra]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Don't hate your country, hate the ones that ruin it. I'm sure Turkey has good things to be proud of. I hope you don’t take anything personally Palvara.

I find it stupid to be proud because I born somewhere I do not decide. I do not hate my country. I love it but I have no reason to become proud.

You’re words hint that you don’t think like most Turks out there or Armenians, or pretty much like them at all. For that reason, you don’t seem to understand where jealousy could/is coming from. I can give you enough examples to make your head spin but experience has shown that people start to think your bragging when you do that so please don’t ask me to do so.

Even I do not think like standart turks but I do understand them. Be sure, most of them dont even aware what armenian accomplished.

Our nation has the ability to stand next to almost any nation although it is so small. That alone is enough to cause jealousy.

Not for Turks who believe They survived totally in an enemy world and You are forgetting history of Turks. When It comes to war or conflicts, I am sure No Turk will see armenia as example.(Do not missunderstood me, I am not saying armenians did not accomplished anything. I am just trying to show you Turkish vision about armenians.)

Your statement, “and personally, I do not see any reason to become jealous of armenians” shows just how little you know about Armenia and, forgive me if I’m wrong, how insignificant you think she is. If that’s what you think, you’re in for a rude awakening unfortunately and I’m not saying this in a grudging way.

Infact, I see ROA as a insignificant and as a pawn or russia(Dont take it much important. I sometimes see Turkey as a pawn of USA too.) . at last 20 years you lost 1/4 of your population. That was not a success..

You know your country? I’m not saying everyone will believe the Genocide happened over one night, I’m saying it will be started by us if anyone at all. Turkey will never accept what happened and will not allow anyone else to. Look at your article 301 closely and you’ll get a better idea of where you live. Your right, you do know your country, but there is much you don’t know and much your country WON’T let you know.

You cannot do more thing than armenians in Turkey.(Turks will listen them more than you and If He is Turk who talk about AG, people believe more.) Hrant most probably did much more than all of your diaspora(Sadly, with dying)..

You are unknown enemy at the otherside of world. My people wont show any sympaty to you. So They wont listen your side of story.(Specially, when some parts are unclear and when you are trying to harm Turkish benefit even When It is unrelated with AG.)

Yes but the many people that don’t trust are already starting to not trust their own gov

That is standart in Turkey, nothing new. (None of our goverment gain trust from majority.)

If you don’t trust your gov. who are you going to trust then? Basically, many people are standing up Palvara, whether you believe it or not and those are the people that will help Turkey get back on its feet.

I will absolutely not trust my enemies.(In this situation, They are armenians.) Do you realy thing, Turks will listen and trust your one sided story? Yes. It was a genocide but story is not limited with genocide. Armenians killed people too. They tried to assasinate Patisah of ottomans too.

I am sure, world has no idea about these facts but Turks know it. You are forgetting, there are turks who have ancestor personally suffered because of armenian gangs..

And one question, if you don’t trust anyone, where will the opportunity come from? You seem to be the person that walks away from everyone. An opportunist SEARCHES for an opportunity.

I do not say, I am closed to world(unlike my people.) I just said, I do not trust my counterpart but I do agreements If two side gain something.

And please save me the EU and USA speech, the world never started and will never end with the EU or the US. Trust never began from the US and all it rather seems to be ending there in many cases.

I was just trying to show that noone trust outsiders in Turkey.

Again, you may not realize this but there are many Turks, many that I know, that are trying hard to make a change, looking out of the box. These people are the patriots, not the retards that hurt their own people. There are those kinds of people everywhere, I might add. Please don’t think I’m a racist saying Turkey is the only one to blame. We all have made mistakes, big or small, but some have accepted what they have done and some haven’t which is a much greater crime. We have lived with it for 93 years….how much longer can Turkey live with it?

You get it wrong. Refusing genocide benefit us more than to accept it. So goverment has a problem at there. She will not sacrify Turkish benefits for petty things(Like ethics.) People may sacrify their own benefit for ethics but It is not common.(You wait much from Turkish people.)

You really don’t seem to have read/heard/seen much. Turks have never been taught about the AG. If the Diaspora didn’t say anything, not much would have changed.

So what did Turks learn? An enemy organization is accusing Turkey with lies.

How has it happened that countries around the world have recognized the AG, because of Turkey?

It make Turks more angry nothing more. Now, Turks believe more that you are enemy because You are using political mean.

If you want to use AG as a political(I am not against it. It is a good opportunity for armenians.) This is a good way.

But If you realy care that Turks admit their guilt(And as an opportunist, I must say that You are wasting your sources.), Your way just make it difficult.

Palvara, I requested you not to make me laugh. Don’t make me explain everything in detail, you might be scared to death. You seem like a very cheerful person without a care in the world. Unfortunately, this world isn’t that way. Wake up, read more, look at what’s happening. Do you really think everything we say is a lie?

AKP is most liberal and less nationali goverment. Believe or not but If You have connections with Bolsohays, You can ask them. Dont you find it interesting, a lot of armenian is voting for an islamist party? This is best time for armenians but not because of your work but conflict between Turkish society.

AKP and islamists(mine too.) need more democracy(against coups.) so Armenians get benefit from it too. It is sad, even islam cannot stop nationalism at Turkey.

Oh they will leave the castle, don’t worry, and THEN we’ll break it down so our children will never have to go through the xxxx your government put the Turks and Armenians through, not to mention so many other nations. And just incase, your castle isn’t much to protect (which isn’t your country, by the way). It is your country’s fault that Turks view everyone as enemies, not ours

Yes. It is partly our guilt and partly guilt of time. Ottomans had no alternatives to survive but become nationalists(and Turks.) That is how we survived(Seeing everyone as enemy) and how we did a lot crimes. Building a nation was not a easy task. To sad, armenians paid price.

[seruven]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Dear Saco,

I would like to give some advice to you and make some comments if you don't mind. Firstly, you write way too long Saco. Try to be concise.

Secondly, you can't make people read more, learn history or "think out of the box" just by telling them to do so! Besides, that's irritating. People will think that you are looking down on them. ("be brief" and "go, learn history" is not the same thing!)

I'm reluctant to make judgements about Turkey because this thread and the posts sent up to now do not attract me. Anyway, it seems you attribute importance to the thread and hence, I'll tell what I think:

I think first and foremost, Turkey should be proud of her history and other civilizations lived on those lands. As you know (or learn by checking wikipedia), many civilizations, including Armenians, lived in Anatolia. Turkish state claims to be descendent of Central Asian Turks. However, as you all know, today's Turks are much more Anatolian than Central Asian. (Some may be proud of gathering different people under Turkish flag)
If we only trace Turkish root, we find many states founded by Turks over centuries and different regions. It should also be kept in mind that Turks ruled over many nations in the past.
Apart from history, geography and nature of Turkey are other things to be proud of. Of course, they are not man made, yet one can still be proud of them. Being a bridge between Europe and Asia, and Western and Eastern civilizations are some features of Turkey.
Turks can also be proud of republic's achievements. I know you are sick of listening to that, but from the ashes of a fallen empire, a modern (or at least struggling to be modern) country has been created. You should compare it with other Islamic countries in order to understand the way Turkey has advanced in terms of technology, civil rights, education, production, military, etc. Yet, we are not a static and old country like the European ones, but rather a young and dynamic one.

I'm studying economics and for a while, skimming economics programmes abroad. I noticed that the number of Turkish professors in top institutions was really high. Some examples: Daron Acemoğlu at MIT (who is of Armenian origin by the way), Muhammet Yıldız at MIT, Faruk Gül at Princeton, Dani Rodrik at Harvard (Jéwish), Jess Benhabib at NYU (Jéwish), Efe Ök at NYU, Ali Hortaçsu at Chicago. If nothing aforementioned, just these economists, their quality and variety in origin are sufficient for me to be proud!

[hipeter924]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

I do not think any turk has that jealousy.




Anyway,do you realy think that your ag campaing help Turkey democratization? You are as helpful as PKK.

I should also add, Instead of helping Turkey democratization, You should interest with ROA one.

Turks will not trust outside of Turkey. Do you realy think, castle mentality can be destroyed so easily? ottomans destruction is still alive at the mind of people.

Actually on the Armenian Genocide documentaries I have seen they have commented on the fact that the same people denying the Armenian Genocide are also the ones against democracy in Turkey since the main group denying the Genocide are Turkish Islamic Nationalists.

[phantom]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Why is it that the majority of Anatolia still resembles a third world country? Hasn't the "Modern Republic of Turkey" been in existence for 86 years now? Germany was almost completely destroyed after WWII, and it rose from the ashes in 30 years to be one of the most modern countries in the world. It even had to absorb East Germany just 15 years ago. Israel was a wasteland until the xxxs took it over in 1948, and now look at it, even despite the fact that it is surrounded entirely by enemies. I mean, Armenia has been independent for less than 20 years and is there any difference between the rural parts of Armenia and most of Anatolia, and is Yerevan that far behind the main cities of Turkey? What is it that is holding Turkey back for so many years?

[Sako]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

I find it stupid to be proud because I born somewhere I do not decide. I do not hate my country. I love it but I have no reason to become proud.

Maybe you don’t know enough about it? Did you know that one of the Wonders of the world is in Turkey? That’s something that could make you smile a bit. Most think that Armenians want to diminish the face of Turkey but that’s completely out of focus. What I personally want is for Turks to be living in their country, starting to bring everything together, and facing the past. Once they do, we’ll all be able to move on. I respect Turkey, just not the people that ruin it. The AG issue makes Turkey look like a turkey. I don’t want to diminish Turkey; I want us to help ourselves and each other to get out of this crap hole.

Even I do not think like standart turks but I do understand them. Be sure, most of them dont even aware what armenian accomplished.

Just like we aren’t aware, it seems, of Turkish accomplishments. We don’t really seem to know each other lol. Maybe if we get a chance to, this AG issue will clear off much faster.

Not for Turks who believe They survived totally in an enemy world and You are forgetting history of Turks. When It comes to war or conflicts, I am sure No Turk will see armenia as example.(Do not missunderstood me, I am not saying armenians did not accomplished anything. I am just trying to show you Turkish vision about armenians.)

Trust me, I know the Turkish vision, lol, no need to show proof, I’m a believer.

Infact, I see ROA as a insignificant and as a pawn or russia(Dont take it much important. I sometimes see Turkey as a pawn of USA too.) . at last 20 years you lost 1/4 of your population. That was not a success..

You haven’t lived in Armenia, you don’t know why many things happened. It’s not because of ROA primarily that everyone left. Yes, our country is getting on its feet but there were many reasons people left other then that. Even with these problems though, our country can still stand and stood next to other countries with its head up high. If you want details, I’m ready to provide them. Very simple facts.

You cannot do more thing than armenians in Turkey.(Turks will listen them more than you and If He is Turk who talk about AG, people believe more.) Hrant most probably did much more than all of your diaspora(Sadly, with dying)..

Perhaps, but the Diaspora did a lot and is still doing a lot. You have to be blind to say that’s not true.

You are unknown enemy at the otherside of world. My people wont show any sympaty to you. So They wont listen your side of story.(Specially, when some parts are unclear and when you are trying to harm Turkish benefit even When It is unrelated with AG.)

Could you give some clear examples, not that I don’t believe you or anything?

I will absolutely not trust my enemies.(In this situation, They are armenians.) Do you realy thing, Turks will listen and trust your one sided story? Yes. It was a genocide but story is not limited with genocide. Armenians killed people too. They tried to assasinate Patisah of ottomans too.

We aren't your enemies. Don’t worry, Turks will listen. We never said Armenians didn’t kill Turks but there was a reason for everything. Turks are still thinking Armenians are enemies. The only way to clear that up is by talking which we are starting to do lately. Our truth is not one sided either.

I am sure, world has no idea about these facts but Turks know it. You are forgetting, there are turks who have ancestor personally suffered because of armenian gangs..

And we have an entire nation that suffered because of Turkish gangs …. What is greater and more painful?

I do not say, I am closed to world(unlike my people.) I just said, I do not trust my counterpart but I do agreements If two side gain something.

Then you must simply love to see the AG recognized because both sides will gain. Turkey will lose something (not land) but all the losses it will have won’t/can’t stand next to all it will gain.

You get it wrong. Refusing genocide benefit us more than to accept it. So goverment has a problem at there. She will not sacrify Turkish benefits for petty things(Like ethics.) People may sacrify their own benefit for ethics but It is not common.(You wait much from Turkish people.)

Wait, expect, etc. It doesn’t matter. Turkey will have to accept what happened. We won’t let her sleep until she does. But believe it or not, she will gain more then she will lose (which is inevitable).

So what did Turks learn? An enemy organization is accusing Turkey with lies.

And who cares??? The truth is painful and we must find a way to get that truth into Turkey properly. All Armenians aren’t filled with hate and the lust for revenge. There are many Turks that are afraid of saying anything and soon, they won’t have a reason to anymore. That is your gov. greatest fear.

If you want to use AG as a political(I am not against it. It is a good opportunity for armenians.) This is a good way. But If you realy care that Turks admit their guilt(And as an opportunist, I must say that You are wasting your sources.), Your way just make it difficult.

Provide me with another way then. Your gov. doesn’t leave us with any other choices. What are you proposing? That we sit around and watch?

Yes. It is partly our guilt and partly guilt of time. Ottomans had no alternatives to survive but become nationalists(and Turks.) That is how we survived(Seeing everyone as enemy) and how we did a lot crimes. Building a nation was not a easy task. To sad, armenians paid price.

And now it’s time to pay the bills…

[Sako]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Dear Saco,

I would like to give some advice to you and make some comments if you don't mind. Firstly, you write way too long Saco. Try to be concise.

I try me best bro, try my best. There is too much to tell.

Secondly, you can't make people read more, learn history or "think out of the box" just by telling them to do so! Besides, that's irritating. People will think that you are looking down on them. ("be brief" and "go, learn history" is not the same thing!)

I apologize if anyone thinks that way but I told Palavra not to take anything personally. She gives me arguments so I expect her to back them up and I'm not forcing her to go read up or something, I'm advising her to do so. It will only help.

I think first and foremost, Turkey should be proud of her history and other civilizations lived on those lands. As you know (or learn by checking wikipedia), many civilizations, including Armenians, lived in Anatolia. Turkish state claims to be descendent of Central Asian Turks. However, as you all know, today's Turks are much more Anatolian than Central Asian. (Some may be proud of gathering different people under Turkish flag)

Not a bad approach. Please continue…

If we only trace Turkish root, we find many states founded by Turks over centuries and different regions. It should also be kept in mind that Turks ruled over many nations in the past.

And they destroyed many of them. I don’t really look at this as something to be proud of. At times they couldn’t deal with their pop. So I doubt that’s really something to be really proud of.

Turks can also be proud of republic's achievements. I know you are sick of listening to that, but from the ashes of a fallen empire, a modern (or at least struggling to be modern) country has been created. You should compare it with other Islamic countries in order to understand the way Turkey has advanced in terms of technology, civil rights, education, production, military, etc. Yet, we are not a static and old country like the European ones, but rather a young and dynamic one.

I don’t hate what you say but I must add that Turkey is advanced perhaps but more backwards then most countries out there, even Armenia. It’s not the land or buildings that make a country advanced alone. The education in Turkey has harmed its people a lot. Plus, freedom is something you read in books mostly there it seems. Sorry if my words offended you in anyway.

I'm studying economics and for a while, skimming economics programmes abroad. I noticed that the number of Turkish professors in top institutions was really high. Some examples: Daron Acemoğlu at MIT (who is of Armenian origin by the way), Muhammet Yıldız at MIT, Faruk Gül at Princeton, Dani Rodrik at Harvard (Jéwish), Jess Benhabib at NYU (Jéwish), Efe Ök at NYU, Ali Hortaçsu at Chicago. If nothing aforementioned, just these economists, their quality and variety in origin are sufficient for me to be proud!

I’m happy for you bro. Truly. I hope you can be happy for our achievements in the same way as well. These achievements have nothing to do with our feelings related to the AG. Let’s not do everything with it in mind or else we’ll never move on.

Any other achievements guys?

[TomServo]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

"Bro" count: 6

[seruven]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Why is it that the majority of Anatolia still resembles a third world country? Hasn't the "Modern Republic of Turkey" been in existence for 86 years now? Germany was almost completely destroyed after WWII, and it rose from the ashes in 30 years to be one of the most modern countries in the world. It even had to absorb East Germany just 15 years ago. Israel was a wasteland until the xxxs took it over in 1948, and now look at it, even despite the fact that it is surrounded entirely by enemies. I mean, Armenia has been independent for less than 20 years and is there any difference between the rural parts of Armenia and most of Anatolia, and is Yerevan that far behind the main cities of Turkey? What is it that is holding Turkey back for so many years?

I think comparing Germany and Turkey is like comparing apples and oranges. Before WWII, Germans were a modern, industrialized, secular and urban society. However, what Ottomans left to Turkey was a rural, illeterate, agricultural population without the notion of nationality. The success of Turkey is the transformation of its society. Urbanization and industrialization is a harsh process and not something to look down.
I don't know much about Armenia, so it's hard to compare Turkey and her. But, at least I'm sure that Yerevan and Istanbul can not be compared. Istanbul has a tremendous population, vast amounts of production facilities, many universities, a vivid cultural life, huge amounts of tourist inflows, and it hosts 34 billionaries (it ranks fourth in the world after Moscow, NYC and London).
For the rest of the country, I'm not happy, either. I don't think the governments governed the country well. Besides, we had many problems in the 20th century: PKK, Cyprus, routine of coups, etc.
These are my opinions. Maybe you should try to find some answers to the questions you arose, phantom?