Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

[Eddo211]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

But this isn't an "elsewhere", it's a forum where the Eddos of this world come to express themselves.

Stop playing around bells, with your constant flip-flops.
I didn’t come here to express myself..............I came here to learn more about AG and to take a brake from hunting your countrymen down spreading their poison against my people. Come to found out to my suprise that this place is infested with Turks who have no good intentions.

I guess you three (may, hitite, and jingle bells) are OK but are you jokers (Not may) the best we can expect out of Turkey? For a minute there I thought we might be in trouble; I suppose we can’t expect anything more than this.

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Alexandros, I can see you are following Turkish politics pretty closely, then you should also know how wierd are the Turkish parties PKK leader Ocalan was caught during DSP-MHP coalition, one of the most nationalist goverment I have ever seen. When all Turkey was pressing for his death sentence (not even mentioning MHP crowd), the death penalty was removed from Turkish law for the sake of EU regulations. And many important steps were taken during this same coalition, but ironic enough, it was for the same reason: political context and overall pressure. That was the reason there was a drag later on, and just like Erdogan's term, the crisis came and the progress stopped until Erdogan was elected. Because of the long period passing with no actual EU progress Erdogan did a lot, then he stopped as well. On the other hand, some polls say the priority of EU membership declined significantly for the public, so I am not sure of the expected public pressure for EU. And trust me, whoever comes to rule in next elections (Erdogan or CHP or MHP) will make great leaps for EU membership, if public opinion about EU gets better because people realized nothing was done for a long while.

This was a quick answer, because I could not read your sources in detail. I will comment more when I read. It is a pleasure discussing with you, really. That's why I am doing the last thing in my to-do list and writing in this forum. I am badly overwhelmed with my work! Really badly I'll try to back soon...

Evet kardes.Looking forward to it.

[may]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

This article is from 10 June 2002:



And this article is from 29 May 2008:



may,

are these the parties - CHP and MHP - that would have implemented reforms in order to join the EU?I think not!




Was top of its power?Then who prevented Erdogan to lift the ban on headscarves?Had he been able to do it he would have done it a long time ago but the guys in the military uniform prevented Erdogan from doing it.

Ilker Basbug even made a public statement where he condemned DTP`s party leader Ahmed Turk for speaking in Kurdish to his party in the Turkish parliament not long time ago.Basbug said that this was unconstitutional.No double standards and no influence of politics here?




I can`t say I`m a big fan of Erdogan, however his party has been more EU oriented than CHP and MHP.On the other hand, there`s not much he could do since he has the powerful army against him.He could implement some reforms here or there until the military say:STOP!

And the Turkish constitution which is from 1982 needs to be changed because it gives too much power to the army but that won`t be easy either because - if I have understood it correctly and correct me if I`m wrong - AKP needs CHP or MHP in order to amend the constitution.

As for the Turks support to join the EU; this article is from 30 March 2009, Monday:



Not bad, eh?

Alexandros, I can see you are following Turkish politics pretty closely, then you should also know how wierd are the Turkish parties PKK leader Ocalan was caught during DSP-MHP coalition, one of the most nationalist goverment I have ever seen. When all Turkey was pressing for his death sentence (not even mentioning MHP crowd), the death penalty was removed from Turkish law for the sake of EU regulations. And many important steps were taken during this same coalition, but ironic enough, it was for the same reason: political context and overall pressure. That was the reason there was a drag later on, and just like Erdogan's term, the crisis came and the progress stopped until Erdogan was elected. Because of the long period passing with no actual EU progress Erdogan did a lot, then he stopped as well. On the other hand, some polls say the priority of EU membership declined significantly for the public, so I am not sure of the expected public pressure for EU. And trust me, whoever comes to rule in next elections (Erdogan or CHP or MHP) will make great leaps for EU membership, if public opinion about EU gets better because people realized nothing was done for a long while.

This was a quick answer, because I could not read your sources in detail. I will comment more when I read. It is a pleasure discussing with you, really. That's why I am doing the last thing in my to-do list and writing in this forum. I am badly overwhelmed with my work! Really badly I'll try to back soon...

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

This kind of self confidence with "know everything" attitude will get you being ridiculed elsewhere Eddo, a friendly warning... What a self confidence!! I'm really impressed...

But this isn't an "elsewhere", it's a forum where the Eddos of this world come to express themselves.

[Eddo211]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

hitite:
There really isn’t any set measure that would determine who is a good fighter pilot. You become an Ace after getting five confirmed kills. Good personality, being dissent, winning rightfully has nothing to do with it. It has to do with who will do what it takes utilizing his/her experience, skills, Aircraft capabilities, training…..and little bit of luck while coordinating with your wingman and following the rules of engagement. Some of the best fighter pilots of WWI and WWII were shot down themselves, early in the war.

Ozdemir, the Turkish pilot which I am giving credit for ramming the Greek is your best fighter pilot (unless I am wrong and he really screwed up). He has one confirmed kill, never mind he destroyed his own jet and had to bailout.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/01/27/321688/turkish-pilot-convicted-over-aegean-f-16-collision.html

Never heard of a Pilot of another country getting convicted in Absentia.
That could be a badge of honor if you ask me.

Armenia has not been militarily tested in this arena as of yet.

[hitite]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

What gets under my skin is the blatant lying/insults and the lack of professionalism that comes from you guy . The Turkish B-737 that crashed in Amsterdam just lately is a good example. First your government stated that the pilot’s heroic efforts saved many lives after the airplane experienced catastrophic structural failure (blaming the aircraft manufacturer Boing who lost three engineers in this crash as passengers). Then later it was reported by Turkish Airline pilots that the crash was due to wake turbulence (pointing the blame to air traffic controllers for not giving proper separation).

Well, come to find out from the black box that this Turkish crew knew about a faulty altimeter that feeds the autopilot, even worst is that they allowed the auto landing system to fly the airplane which initiated the landing flare 1000 feet above the ground and to top it off they failed to recover in a timely manner………….all pointing to pilot error for flying with a known problem, not hand flying the aircraft so close to the ground, not having situational awareness (altitude/airspeed), poor judgment, showing lack of basic skills, and not reacting properly to emergency that they put themselves into. Your heroic captain Hasan Tahsin Arisan, was an experienced former Air force pilot.

There is a reason why turkeys can’t fly.

C'mon dude chill... I didn't insult you. Ok, so why do you think Turks are bad pilots... oh sorry, you did mention why; because Turks have a...I quote "Fascist/borderline Jihadist mentality"... It must be very easy living in your teletubby fantasy world where the Turk is evil-stupid-brainwashed and the Armenians are warrior gods with huge genitals.

We must have at least one good, down to earth, decent Turkish pilot who is good enough to rightfully win in a dog fight... right??? Dont we?

Or let me turn the question around; dont you have any Armenian pilots that have a Fascist/borderline "Jihadist" mentality? Not even one? That is if you have any fighter pilots of course.

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Alexandros, CHP and MHP are the worst opposition parties I have seen in my short life. No real policies offered, no actual solutions are formulated. They are stuck to discussing the subjects AKP prepares for them to waste their time (get the bait in other words), and when they have extra time they do the easiest to keep their votes: Nationalism. But I think, even they would pass these laws, it was so inevitable IMO.

This article is from 10 June 2002:

MHP's role

The real problem is, whether or not the governing parties embrace the decisions of the government. The entrenched opinion within the public is that the second largest coalition party MHP, is holding back the government from carrying out its EU policies.

In this case, MHP has to set a clear position and thus make a decision. If MHP does not think that the government is right in carrying out its EU policies, then it should withdraw from the government. MHP is now at a turning point between remaining in the government or gratify its voters.

If MHP prevents the government from carrying out its policies and also insists in remaining in the government, then the Prime Minister would be the person to solve this problem.

However Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit, the head of the government, is unable to carry out his duties.

Full article here

And this article is from 29 May 2008:

The Republican People’s Party (CHP), like the German Social Democratic Party and the British Labour Party, is a member of the Socialist International. The CHP gave immediate and unconditional support to the judges’ statement. Onur Oymen, the CHP’s deputy leader, told reporters, “Everyone should respect the statement of the Supreme Court of Appeal.”

CHP leader Deniz Baykal, acting as a mouthpiece for the military against the AKP government, called the chief judges’ statement a “memorandum (muhtira) of the judiciary.” In Turkish such wording directly connotes the numerous past memorandums of the Turkish military, some of which were followed by a direct military intervention.

Baykal made this analogy by approving the statement of the chief judges who are acting and speaking on behalf of the military, but his attitude is hardly surprising. A year ago both he and his CHP welcomed the memorandum posted on the official web site of the military on April 27, 2007, which contained a thinly veiled threat of a coup against the possibility of an Islamist becoming the president of Turkey.

Full article here

may,

are these the parties - CHP and MHP - that would have implemented reforms in order to join the EU?I think not!

Regarding the military influence, I believe it is sometimes overestimated, and even be used as an excuse as you claimed. When Erdogan was passing the EU laws, his vote percentage was lower then his second term and military was at the top of its power. I also have witnessed that government and military worked together by creating temporary crisis to distract the public when one is about to do something unpopular. And with the latest Ergenekon investigation, the people in the military are mostly sitting hands tied with a lot of accusation around them.

Was top of its power?Then who prevented Erdogan to lift the ban on headscarves?Had he been able to do it he would have done it a long time ago but the guys in the military uniform prevented Erdogan from doing it.

Ilker Basbug even made a public statement where he condemned DTP`s party leader Ahmed Turk for speaking in Kurdish to his party in the Turkish parliament not long time ago.Basbug said that this was unconstitutional.No double standards and no influence of politics here?

In my opinion, Erdogan took the political advantage of passing EU laws (reducing the influence of military, gaining popularity among political elite, lowering the heat around their islamic character discussion etc.). And then he just gave it up. The problem of progress is not "not being able to", but simply "not wanting to". Or why should AKP care to pass EU laws when people are not demanding it as before. I personally do not think neither EU, nor Turkey will be discussing about progress until this economic crisis gets better. People have different and more material priorities nowadays.

I can`t say I`m a big fan of Erdogan, however his party has been more EU oriented than CHP and MHP.On the other hand, there`s not much he could do since he has the powerful army against him.He could implement some reforms here or there until the military say:STOP!

And the Turkish constitution which is from 1982 needs to be changed because it gives too much power to the army but that won`t be easy either because - if I have understood it correctly and correct me if I`m wrong - AKP needs CHP or MHP in order to amend the constitution.

As for the Turks support to join the EU; this article is from 30 March 2009, Monday:

The survey, conducted by private research company DAP for the Traditional Alcoholic Beverage Producers Association (GİSDER), revealed that 75 percent of Turks support Turkey becoming a member of the EU. This is a significant increase -- by 21 percent --from the latest EU survey conducted in 2006, when only 54 percent said they supported Turkish membership in the EU.

Full article here

Not bad, eh?

[Eddo211]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

What I mean Eddo is your way of jumping on any subject in which you could comment as "Ohhh... The Turks... genetically unable, loser, lousy etc etc."

When I read your post, I remembered "hunter jokes". I am sure the hunter stories are somewhat everywhere in the world (or maybe only Turkish hunters are that funny, don't know). The jokes or the stories (at least the ones in Turkey) has many things in common.

There are hunters who go hunting regularly. And when they do not hunt, they go to hunter hangouts to meet with other hunters. All of them are hunters, each one them knows the job inside out, and of course each of them is THE BEST. They tell stories to each other. Of course, they do not tell stories about hunting a rabbit. It they are talking about a rabbit hunt, then the rabbit is 3 feet high.

But it is preferable for hunters to tell about stories that will be more interesting for others, preferably less questionable ones, the ones hunters do not see everyday, say a giraffe. One say he was in Africa a month ago and talks about how he hunted the 10 meters high giraffe. He might have really gone to Africa, but who knows if he was involved in the hunt, or heard the story from someone else. Needless to say 10 meter high giraffe is made up by the first story teller, or made up on the spot by himself. If he is not the one making it up, he does not question the validity of a 10 meter high giraffe because that is the kind of subject "he wants to hear". And the African hunter who is telling the story also knows that whatever he says won't be questioned because it is a kind of story other person "wants to hear". The listener either tell others in the same way he hears, or make it more "interesting" by adding himself to the story or making giraffe 11 meters. And he is not questioned by his own friends because all the stories told in the hunter hangout are more or less the same, and once somebody stands up and says "what the hell are you talking about", then all their fun will be ruined. Still, they warn when the giraffe is 20 meters high, then they can better pretend 10 meter giraffe is a good estimate.

I will not ask you how you learned the flight logs of dogfights between Turkish and Greek pilots. I am sure the person will be in trouble when you reveal the name. I do not know how many drinks you had when you grasp the "indirectly indicated" punchline (turkeys cannot fly) of "aviator story" that the American instructors you met in "aviator hangout". But I am sure the people you talked are the instructors themselves and they did not drink enough to give you information that is probably secret for their profession. If they drank enough I am sure they will tell the "facts" "directly": Anybody born in Turkey, call himself Turk, speaks Turkish etc cannot fly. Why? Simply because they cannot for various reason. And I am sure, they tell you stories about every pilot from every nationality but the reason you told the one about Turkish pilots is because there was few lines about a dogfight between Turkish and Greek pilots and you were burning to give this crucial information about Turks' Nazi tricks from WW2, their incompetence etc. I am sure it was not an information that you tattooed to your brain to tell in other hangouts you go.

As a person, hearing aviation stories from "friends from the industry" I can imagine different versions of stories but that is not important. Lets assume Turkish government is giving its planes worth million dollars to people with no skills, where they could just ask some friends fromt he industry and learn they are wasting their money. Still, my problem is different.

"Turks cannot fly, I HEARD so" is not the only "statement" I read in these forums. As a matter of fact, your was one of the most scientific one (based on scientific chats with scientific people) about Turkish character. I remember hearing "Didn't Turks killed J.ews too? I THOUGHT so!" or "ISRAEL and some people in Turkey believe they are the true successors of Ottoman Empire, I BELIEVE so". Compared to those ones your statement is truly appreciated.

And last thing: the unskilled Turkish pilot that you almost cheered for his death for proving your claim, was living few months ago. Of course you know waay better, you have friends in the aviation business, these accidents are mostly one time event (low probability-high consequence in more academic terms). If you stop writing to this forum because you hit your airplane to the ground for various reasons, I won't be talking about your pilotage skills regardless of how I hear about Armenian pilots. So you can be content from my side.

Jeez, I guess you told me may.

BTW, before you get your pantyhose all bunched up just remember that the loss of any aviator is a tragedy in our circle but when the lives of innocent people are in your hands it is utterly unforgivable for a crew to pull stunts like that against operating manual and worse, to allow their skill level to detoriate to such a degree that a imminent stall was not detected and was allowed to happen and that the simple recovery procedure was not done properly (doesn’t matter if you are a turkey or a hawk). I am telling you this as a Flight Instructor may and that gives me the right to critic.

"ISRAEL and some people in Turkey believe they are the true successors of Ottoman Empire, I BELIEVE so".

That is not me may, I never said that.

Sorry to change the subject people. I will shut up.

[may]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

may,

had CHP or MHP garnered the votes as AKP did back in 2002, I highly doubt that they would have implemented the reforms that AKP did regardless of the "political scene"; CHP and MHP seems to be competing with each other with who is more nationalistic but nationalism won`t solve Turkey`s economical, social... problems.By the way, I think that it would had been easier for AKP(and frankly for other parties as well if that was their intention) to make "real" changes if it wasn`t for the Turkish military`s influence in politics.

The Turkish military has made it very clear that they won`t bow to EU`s demands since the EU has said that the Turkish military must stay out of politics and must be under civilian control and not vice versa...

Alexandros, CHP and MHP are the worst opposition parties I have seen in my short life. No real policies offered, no actual solutions are formulated. They are stuck to discussing the subjects AKP prepares for them to waste their time (get the bait in other words), and when they have extra time they do the easiest to keep their votes: Nationalism. But I think, even they would pass these laws, it was so inevitable IMO.

Regarding the military influence, I believe it is sometimes overestimated, and even be used as an excuse as you claimed. When Erdogan was passing the EU laws, his vote percentage was lower then his second term and military was at the top of its power. I also have witnessed that government and military worked together by creating temporary crisis to distract the public when one is about to do something unpopular. And with the latest Ergenekon investigation, the people in the military are mostly sitting hands tied with a lot of accusation around them.

In my opinion, Erdogan took the political advantage of passing EU laws (reducing the influence of military, gaining popularity among political elite, lowering the heat around their islamic character discussion etc.). And then he just gave it up. The problem of progress is not "not being able to", but simply "not wanting to". Or why should AKP care to pass EU laws when people are not demanding it as before. I personally do not think neither EU, nor Turkey will be discussing about progress until this economic crisis gets better. People have different and more material priorities nowadays.

[may]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Wha what do you mean my dear may?
Everything I have said is practically common knowledge and can be attained easily in the aviation industry. You yourself could get access to some of that information if you knew where to look without being a professional Aviator who has friends in this field.



Most of the time I wing it may.

What I mean Eddo is your way of jumping on any subject in which you could comment as "Ohhh... The Turks... genetically unable, loser, lousy etc etc."

When I read your post, I remembered "hunter jokes". I am sure the hunter stories are somewhat everywhere in the world (or maybe only Turkish hunters are that funny, don't know). The jokes or the stories (at least the ones in Turkey) has many things in common.

There are hunters who go hunting regularly. And when they do not hunt, they go to hunter hangouts to meet with other hunters. All of them are hunters, each one them knows the job inside out, and of course each of them is THE BEST. They tell stories to each other. Of course, they do not tell stories about hunting a rabbit. It they are talking about a rabbit hunt, then the rabbit is 3 feet high.

But it is preferable for hunters to tell about stories that will be more interesting for others, preferably less questionable ones, the ones hunters do not see everyday, say a giraffe. One say he was in Africa a month ago and talks about how he hunted the 10 meters high giraffe. He might have really gone to Africa, but who knows if he was involved in the hunt, or heard the story from someone else. Needless to say 10 meter high giraffe is made up by the first story teller, or made up on the spot by himself. If he is not the one making it up, he does not question the validity of a 10 meter high giraffe because that is the kind of subject "he wants to hear". And the African hunter who is telling the story also knows that whatever he says won't be questioned because it is a kind of story other person "wants to hear". The listener either tell others in the same way he hears, or make it more "interesting" by adding himself to the story or making giraffe 11 meters. And he is not questioned by his own friends because all the stories told in the hunter hangout are more or less the same, and once somebody stands up and says "what the hell are you talking about", then all their fun will be ruined. Still, they warn when the giraffe is 20 meters high, then they can better pretend 10 meter giraffe is a good estimate.

I will not ask you how you learned the flight logs of dogfights between Turkish and Greek pilots. I am sure the person will be in trouble when you reveal the name. I do not know how many drinks you had when you grasp the "indirectly indicated" punchline (turkeys cannot fly) of "aviator story" that the American instructors you met in "aviator hangout". But I am sure the people you talked are the instructors themselves and they did not drink enough to give you information that is probably secret for their profession. If they drank enough I am sure they will tell the "facts" "directly": Anybody born in Turkey, call himself Turk, speaks Turkish etc cannot fly. Why? Simply because they cannot for various reason. And I am sure, they tell you stories about every pilot from every nationality but the reason you told the one about Turkish pilots is because there was few lines about a dogfight between Turkish and Greek pilots and you were burning to give this crucial information about Turks' Nazi tricks from WW2, their incompetence etc. I am sure it was not an information that you tattooed to your brain to tell in other hangouts you go.

As a person, hearing aviation stories from "friends from the industry" I can imagine different versions of stories but that is not important. Lets assume Turkish government is giving its planes worth million dollars to people with no skills, where they could just ask some friends fromt he industry and learn they are wasting their money. Still, my problem is different.

"Turks cannot fly, I HEARD so" is not the only "statement" I read in these forums. As a matter of fact, your was one of the most scientific one (based on scientific chats with scientific people) about Turkish character. I remember hearing "Didn't Turks killed J.ews too? I THOUGHT so!" or "ISRAEL and some people in Turkey believe they are the true successors of Ottoman Empire, I BELIEVE so". Compared to those ones your statement is truly appreciated.

And last thing: the unskilled Turkish pilot that you almost cheered for his death for proving your claim, was living few months ago. Of course you know waay better, you have friends in the aviation business, these accidents are mostly one time event (low probability-high consequence in more academic terms). If you stop writing to this forum because you hit your airplane to the ground for various reasons, I won't be talking about your pilotage skills regardless of how I hear about Armenian pilots. So you can be content from my side.