Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

[UrMistake]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Turkish planes fly over greek sea not the oposit so what shake of hand u talking about?
The Critan muslims are gone time ago they were turks,cypriot muslims are turks so how they can be greeks and that greeks have to accept them?
And yeah thats why Turkish army likes US army in IRAQ cause they allow them to invade the country 2 against the kurds.Turks didnt like the fact that US military were arming kurds.
So the initial plan of turks will not work.Turks are not so good people that protect freedom of others so they say no to US invasion against a sadist Dictator.

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Hi Alexandros,

There is an important difference between "being able to" and actually doing it. "Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" which is told as one of the barriers to Turkey's membership has not been signed by France as well. It is not much told in news stories because it crystal-clearly shows double-standards of Europe. I haven't heard any news about a court action against France, let alone stripping membership.

I am aware of the unbearable lightness of critisizm that I am pursuing and I understand your stand point when you say "EU is not perfect of course". Nevertheless, as long as there are situations like I mentioned above, I think discussing the "wellness" - if there is any scale for it - of foreign relations of a country as a decisive factor for EU membership, is just a waste of time.

A quotation from http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publi...orities8en.pdf

"Nature of the Convention
Minority situations differ greatly from country to country and consequently require different approaches. Therefore, the drafters of the Convention opted for “programmatic” provisions that establish principles and objectives that should guide States in protecting their minority populations. For this reason, the Convention is largely constructed as a series of States’ obligations rather than as a detailed list of rights of persons belonging to national minorities. Realization of these principles and objectives must take place at the national level, notably through the adoption of legislation and policies. States can, to some extent, use their discretion in designing legislation and policies that are appropriate to their own circumstances. This is why the Convention is called a “Framework” Convention."

Some more info:

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/articles/chrf-sar2-conseil.html

http://tinyurl.com/c7582c (pp.118)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framewo...nal_Minorities

You raise a good point may.I have difficult to understand why France hasn`t signed this convention.The only thing I know is that France has said that their constitution doesn`t recognize any minorities because all citizens are French and therefore this convention isn`t compatible with France`s constitution.I could be wrong though since I don`t know very much about the issue.On the other hand, France is one of the founding fathers of the EU however the EU back in the 50s was quite different than the EU we have today.There was no such thing as the "Copenhagen criteria" at that time.And if I`ve understood it correctly, the convention you mentioned is included in the Copenghagen criteria.There`s no doubt that joining the EU has become more and more difficult.

As for taking France and the UK to the ECJ - which they have been for other issues - I would be all for it if the EU commission think they could win in the court in order to force France to sign the convention and the UK to change its anti terror laws.Heck, I would even be prepared to support the Council if they wanted to use article 7 of the Nice treaty in order to put pressure on France and the UK to sign the convention and change its anti terror laws - although that`s a little more complicated - which means that the Council could suspend certain of the rights of the country/countries concerned.It doesn`t mean that France and the UK would see their EU membership literally stripped off but that is pretty much how France and the UK would see it as: they would be like second class members in the EU.

We should maybe thank the Austrian far right leader Jörg Haider(he died a couple of months ago in a car accident) for article 7 of the Nice treaty.Let me quote:

Background:
After several decades of Austrian coalition governments between Social Democrats and Christian Democrats (ÖVP), voters in the autumn 1999 elections demanded change and delivered a landslide 27% victory to the far right Freedom Party, the FPÖ. It's leader, the youthful rabble-rouser Jörg Haider, had comments praising the German second world war Nazi soldiers, the Waffen SS. This appalled EU heads of state so much that they felt that they had to take action when the FPÖ joined the ÖVP-led government under Chancellor Wolfgang Schüssel's leadership.

In January 2000 this led to an ill-defined 'diplomatic isolation' of Austria, which, due to there not being a proper legal basis in the EU treaty, was hard to apply in practice. Furthermore it led to angry reactions among the Austrian public and boosted Haider's popularity. Former German foreign minister Joschka Fischer first praised it as "the birth of a political Europe". In reality the 'isolation' mainly amounted to an absence of polite handshakes and no-shows at meetings in Austria.

EU leaders of the 14 countries soon realised that the isolation of Austria was not politically sustainable and was probably counterproductive. A group of 'wise men' were asked to produce a report and the 'isolation' was formally lifted in September 2000.

However, in the Nice Treaty, which was finalised in December 2000, article 7 clearly addressed the 'Haider issue' by setting out how the EU should react when "a clear danger exists of a Member State committing a serious breach of fundamental rights".

The EU has the option to screen, postpone and ultimately refuse membership to a candidate country via the Copenhagen criteria on respect for democracy and rule of law, but once a country has entered the EU it becomes unclear what the EU can do in face of a breach of its main principles and values.

Article 7 of the Nice Treaty states that the European Council can declare the existence of "a serious and persistent breach of fundamental rights". If this occurs, the Council may, by a qualified majority, suspend certain of the rights of the country concerned.

Link

And the new "Treaty of Lisbon" or the "EU-constitution" - which Turkey also supports - will replace all other current treaties.

25 EU countries have ratified the Treaty of Lisbon and 2 more EU countries needs to ratify the new treaty in order for the new EU constitution to be adopted.


And lastly, you could always pick an issue here or there and accuse the EU for double-standards but what the Turks should ask themselves is that: would Turkey been more democratic today if they didn`t implement all those reforms in order to join the EU?(I`m not trying to excuse the flaws in the EU)

[may]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

But when it comes to the common EU laws and rules which the EU countries must follow, if an EU country breaks against a law or a rule, the EU commission could take that EU country to the EU court.And in very extremely situations, an EU country could actually be stripped of its EU membership if they don`t follow the common EU laws or rules - but that of course hasn`t happened.

Hi Alexandros,

There is an important difference between "being able to" and actually doing it. "Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" which is told as one of the barriers to Turkey's membership has not been signed by France as well. It is not much told in news stories because it crystal-clearly shows double-standards of Europe. I haven't heard any news about a court action against France, let alone stripping membership.

I am aware of the unbearable lightness of critisizm that I am pursuing and I understand your stand point when you say "EU is not perfect of course". Nevertheless, as long as there are situations like I mentioned above, I think discussing the "wellness" - if there is any scale for it - of foreign relations of a country as a decisive factor for EU membership, is just a waste of time.

A quotation from http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publi...orities8en.pdf

"Nature of the Convention
Minority situations differ greatly from country to country and consequently require different approaches. Therefore, the drafters of the Convention opted for “programmatic” provisions that establish principles and objectives that should guide States in protecting their minority populations. For this reason, the Convention is largely constructed as a series of States’ obligations rather than as a detailed list of rights of persons belonging to national minorities. Realization of these principles and objectives must take place at the national level, notably through the adoption of legislation and policies. States can, to some extent, use their discretion in designing legislation and policies that are appropriate to their own circumstances. This is why the Convention is called a “Framework” Convention."

Some more info:

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/articles/chrf-sar2-conseil.html

http://tinyurl.com/c7582c (pp.118)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_National_Minorities

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

This is interesting because if I remember my school-work well, Alexander & the Macedonians had real problems being accepted as Greek by Athens, Thebes etc. as they were considered to be "barbarians from the hill country".

Don`t know what books you were using however these Greek tribes were in war with each other from time to time and considering that Alexander`s teacher was Aristotle, spoke Greek, united all Greek tribes against the Persians and spread Hellenism for every city he conquered shouldn`t be too difficult to understand that being a Macedonian was the same thing as being Greek.

You should also wonder why FYROM`s former Prime minister Ljubčo Georgievski obtained Bulgarian - and not Greek - citizenship and speaks out against FYROM`s Pseudomacedonism.He has said that there are many Slavs in FYROM who are proud of their Slavic heritage.It`s not a coincidence that Slavs in FYROM and Bulgarians speaks basically the same language and understand each other pretty well.Neither is it a concidence that FYROM and Bulgaria have the same national heroes.


And here are some non-Greek sources:

By this time the Bulgarians, had become merged with the Slavic peoples, and the name 'Bulgarian' had become to denote all the slav-speaking people, the old term 'Sclavinians' having dropped out of use ...Greeks not only predominated in the towns but in the country-side, for the Slavic settlers had never at any time displaced completely the original populations ."
"The Greek Struggle in Macedonia 1897-1913", Institute of Balkan Studies. Douglas Dakin, 1966


The Proto-Bulgars moved to the territory of Lower Moesia and in 678-680, according to the early nith-century account of Theophanes Homologetos, subdued the seven clans and Severs (siewierzanie) the slavic tribes already living there, and resettled them on the periphery of the territory which they occupied, that is, on the frontier between the Avars and the Bulgars, and in the Balkan foothills, The Bulgars thus strengthened their hold over the territory between the Danube, the Balkans and the Black sea, and began to threaten the Byzantine possesions in Thrace.
"The New Cambridge Medieval History" edited by Paul Fouracre



And here`s an interesting U.S State department document from 1944:

[hrai]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Other than the name issue and their fantasies about being descendants of Alexander the Great, naming their streets "Alexander the Great", raising statues of Alexander the Great and FYROM`s claims that there`s a "Macedonian" minority in Greece there are no other really serious issues that needs to be solved between Greece and FYROM.

This is interesting because if I remember my school-work well, Alexander & the Macedonians had real problems being accepted as Greek by Athens, Thebes etc. as they were considered to be "barbarians from the hill country".

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

These are good questions:

1- No.
2- No. But MACEDONIA continues to be an emotional pain in the ass.
3- Yes. This has been going on for years and I think we should both shake hands and accept the fact that TR and GR airplanes just need to have their occasional dog fight over the Aegean. Its good training for pilots.

2- No. But MACEDONIA continues to be an emotional pain in the ass.

The name issue between Greece and FYROM could have been solved a long time ago.This is where Greek politics sucks.The Skopjians back in the 90s were prepared to accept the name "Slavic Macedonia" and even their President Gligorov at that time went publicly and said that his people(the slavs in FYROM) has nothing to do with Alexander the Great...anyway, Greece wasn`t willing at that time to accept a name that had "Macedonia" in a compound name - today it`s the opposite.Greece is today willing to accept a compound name with the name "Macedonia" but not the Skopjians; they said they are not willing to change their constitutional name - "Republic of Macedonia" - and if they did change their constitutional name, it would only be used between Greece and FYROM and not between FYROM and the rest of the world which Greece is not willing to accept.It has gotten so messy that FYROM has taken Greece to the ICJ because Greece(which Greece had support from other NATO countries as well in this issue) vetoed their NATO membership and they also think that Greece broke against the interim agreement between Greece and FYROM back in 1995.Greece has made it very clear to FYROM that there must be a solution to the name issue before FYROM could join NATO or the EU.

Other than the name issue and their fantasies about being descendants of Alexander the Great, naming their streets "Alexander the Great", raising statues of Alexander the Great and FYROM`s claims that there`s a "Macedonian" minority in Greece there are no other really serious issues that needs to be solved between Greece and FYROM.

Greece is by the way the largest foreign investor in FYROM.

3- Yes. This has been going on for years and I think we should both shake hands and accept the fact that TR and GR airplanes just need to have their occasional dog fight over the Aegean. Its good training for pilots.

You are cheating.I said that Turkey and Armenia were excluded.Anyway, I hope the Aegean dispute will be peacefully solved because I don`t want to see more Greek and Turkish pilots lose their lives in these dogfights which has happened before.

[Alexandros]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Alex, good neighbourly relations is pretty subjective. No relations at all could mean "good" relations which IMHO is the case with ROA.

The EC-EU experiment has lost much of its allure for Turkey and the people. Part of it is due to the fact that Turkey is faced with a lot of double standards with regards to conforming with EU norms and the other is the fact that Europe does not want us, the epitome of this being Frances clearly expressing tha Turkey does not belong in the EU and that it would take the final decision to referendum when the time comes. The final inclusion of mafia ridden states Bulgaria and Romania into the EU was the icing on the cake and was a complete turn-off. I perosnally also do not feel much for joing the EU any more and think that Turkey will become much more powerful in a shorter time if we dont join. Then Europe might beg Turkey to join in order to "contain" the country but then Turkey might put forward her own standards for them to comply to. Sounds like fantasy but it just feeds the indifference of many Turks lately for the EU.

I think Turkey needs to have full soveregntly in its foreign policy for the next few decades since we are living in interesting times. EU membership would just take that sovereignty away.

Well, threatening your neighbour with war or "Casus belli" is not very friendly.Greece`s former government was prepared to solve the Aegean dispute by asking(and did so many times) Turkey to take the issue to the ICJ - but Turkey wasn`t willing to do that.The current Greek and Turkish government are now trying to solve this issue by having meetings or "exploratory talks" - but nothing happens.If you think about it, Turkey themselves has extended their territorial waters in the Black Sea and and the Mediterranean Sea to 12 nm but threatens Greece with war if Greece does the same in the Aegean Sea - is this "good neighbourly relations"?Then we haven`t talked about the Cyprus issue or when Turkey was prepared to invade Armenia back in the 90s but the Russians told Turkey to back off which they did or for example take the incursions(although they were limited) - which were opposed by Iraq - by the Turkish military into northern Iraq in order to fight the PKK...

However I have to say that their are external powers who wants to see the Aegean dispute to continue between Greece and Turkey since it`s feeding($) their defence industries.This dispute also serves the military pashas in Turkey since they have to show that there is a "threat" against Turkey in order to show to the Turkish public that the Turkish military needs to continue to have a strong say in politics...The Turkish military strong influence in Turkish politics and foreign policy creates a lot of problem between Turkey and their neighbours.On the other hand, the Turks - as egeli mentioned - consider America and Israel to be their primary enemies.Greece comes in the third place.The Turkish military has to try a little harder.

On a serious note, I think it`s great news to see that only 5,7 % of the Turks see Greece as an enemy - I`ve read about this survey too.

Anyway, as for the EU-Turkey relations I have to admit that the signals coming from some EU countries haven`t been the "right" ones.You know hitite, there was a time when Germany,France,UK.. were blaming Greece for stopping Turkey to join the EU.Now it`s France(Sarkozy), Germany(Merkel), Austria...who doesn`t seem to be exactly happy to see Turkey joining the EU.And I also agree that maybe EU should have waited a little more time before letting Bulgaria and Romania to join the EU.But the negotiations continues between EU and Turkey.Turkey will probably join the EU but it`s going to take time.If you ask me personally, I rather have a stable and democratic Turkey within the EU than an unstable and undemocratic Turkey outside the EU.I want to see a future Europe who functions as a counter weight against USA but in order to do that, Europe needs to have a common army and a common foreign policy.I`m pretty sick and tired of US foreign policy; Europe could be playing an important role in the world by being a "soft power" instead of a world police.

Having said that, I`m not saying that the EU is perfect.We have our flaws too.There`s a lot of things that could be improved.However some people likes to blame the EU for everything when they see an EU country having unjust laws but the EU doesn`t have a say in all issues.Some issues are being handled by the EU countries themselves which frankly the EU can`t do very much about since these are the "play rules" or that an EU country agreed with the EU before they joined the EU that they wanted to determine themselves in that particular area.But when it comes to the common EU laws and rules which the EU countries must follow, if an EU country breaks against a law or a rule, the EU commission could take that EU country to the EU court.And in very extremely situations, an EU country could actually be stripped of its EU membership if they don`t follow the common EU laws or rules - but that of course hasn`t happened.

[hitite]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Ok then.Let`s exclude Turkey and Armenia and talk about Greece and Cyprus - who are both members of the EU since 1981 respectively 2004 - and their relations with their neighbours.

I`m going to make it very easy for you and not ask so many questions; three questions will be fine:


1.Does Greece and Cyprus occupy a part of land of their neighbour/neighbours?

2.Does Greece and Cyprus have their border closed with their neighbour/neighbours?

3.Does Greece and Cyprus continuously violate their neighbour/neighbours airspace?


Remember: Turkey and Armenia are excluded!

These are good questions:

1- No.
2- No. But MACEDONIA continues to be an emotional pain in the ass.
3- Yes. This has been going on for years and I think we should both shake hands and accept the fact that TR and GR airplanes just need to have their occasional dog fight over the Aegean. Its good training for pilots.

[hitite]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

hitite,

I think gegev has a point.If Turkey wants to join the EU, Turkey needs to have good neighbourly relations with their neighbours - that is what the EU report says.

"Good neighbourly relations" are the key words.It will be up to Turkey - since it`s Turkey who wants to join the EU - to show that they can solve disputes peacefully and in accordance with the "United Nations Charter..."

Alex, good neighbourly relations is pretty subjective. No relations at all could mean "good" relations which IMHO is the case with ROA.

The EC-EU experiment has lost much of its allure for Turkey and the people. Part of it is due to the fact that Turkey is faced with a lot of double standards with regards to conforming with EU norms and the other is the fact that Europe does not want us, the epitome of this being Frances clearly expressing tha Turkey does not belong in the EU and that it would take the final decision to referendum when the time comes. The final inclusion of mafia ridden states Bulgaria and Romania into the EU was the icing on the cake and was a complete turn-off. I perosnally also do not feel much for joing the EU any more and think that Turkey will become much more powerful in a shorter time if we dont join. Then Europe might beg Turkey to join in order to "contain" the country but then Turkey might put forward her own standards for them to comply to. Sounds like fantasy but it just feeds the indifference of many Turks lately for the EU.

I think Turkey needs to have full soveregntly in its foreign policy for the next few decades since we are living in interesting times. EU membership would just take that sovereignty away.

[egeli]

Re: Turkey will be split apart as Iraq is.

Hi Gegev,

And comes the point: "Essense of Turks"? Where does this essense comes from? Our genes?

There are unfortunatly many people, such as gegev, who seem to lump all Turkish citizens into the same ethnic background. The reason why some Turks and the Turkish state are so insecure about Turkishness is because it is very much a constructed identity. Just as an example, if the Greeks accepted Cypriot and Cretan muslims as their fellow kin, they would have been integrated into the Greek nation and never have been pushed to be Turks. Conversely, if Ottoman muslims accepted Christian Anatolians as their own, they would have never been massacred.

Greek, Armenian, and Turkish national idenity has nothing to do with ethnicity, and everything to do with religion. While every nominal follower of Greek or Armenian Othrodox Christianity are respectively identified as Greek or Armenian, ethnic Greek and Armenians who converted to Islam during the centuries of Ottoman rule have become Turkish.


-

Alexandros, you are right we will see what will happen. Turkish relations with Isreal and America are very instuitionalized and resilient against populish black lashes. According to surveys, Turks consider America and Israel to be their primary enemies! What a weird country.