Let us all reason, for the well being of humanity.

[bell-the-cat]

I see you didn't even read any archives of Ottoman Empire.

Actually, there is no such thing as the "archives of the Ottoman Empire", in the way that the word "archives" is understood by western researchers.

The best archives, in the sense of the most complete and comprehensive archives, are those found in Britain. Italy and France come a close second. Every word that has been spoken in the House of Commons is religiously recorded and published, and has been for hundreds of years. Same for every word spoken in closed committees and in private meetings, and for the advice civil servants gave - and for the evidence that those civil servants put together to formulate that advice. (Only that little fascist Blair has chosen to ignore these procedures that guarantee democracy.)

No such thing exists for the Ottoman empire archives. It is a just a mixed collection of unrelated documents, written using a dead alphabet in a dead language. What were the procedures in place within the Ottoman Empire for the collection, collation, and preservation of state archives? What was recorded, what was not. Until we know what these archives actually are, and what they are not, it is pointless to even look at them!

[cemil]

Anatolia is Turk land. Turks came here 1000 years ago. When Turks invaded Anatolia and Balcans, the local people were suffering inside feudal serf-slave system and accepted Turk rule.Armenians were here before Turks came.They claim they are kids of Urartu. Not only them, Georgians are Urartus' kids too. All people of region are Urartus’ kids. Main point is, Ottomans created a stronger and more peaceful system than East Rome - Byzantion.The Ottoman invasions were not cruelty, but millions of serf villagers suffering inside high taxes of Byzantion and other kingdoms like Serbian,accepted Turk sovereignity. Inside Pax-Ottoman , Armenians and Greeks had chance to keep their church,language and do business and get wealthy.

Western colonialism tried to steal-exploit Ottoman lands, where Ottoman created a peaceful system letting non-muslims exist ,do business and get wealthy.This western colonialism used the non-muslim minorities to reach their aims.

Westerns had brought terror and horror everywhere they go. In American and African continents, natives had beeen destroyed, assimilated. Genocides done against Jews. Final scene was Nazi Germany, but for long centuries Jews suffered inside hands of almost all Christians.Jews were banished in many countries. Spaniards banished them in 16th century ,and Ottomans opened the doors of country to them and let them live in peace,do business and get wealthy, like other non-muslim items of Empire.In 18th century ,it was crime to be Jew in Portugal. When Hitler first banished Jews, France and UK closed their borders and didn’t accept them.Hitler made the genocide, eventually responsibility of all Christians was pasted on Hitler.

In early 19th century, Salonika was the city in Europe, which included Jews in most number. Biggest Jew population was there. Right after Greek indpendance,Salonikan Jews were banished out of Greece.

United Kingdom created Greece in 1821. Freedom,in the name of 1789 French Revolution. But, it didnt finish there.100 years after their independance,in 1919-22 You see Greek army in Anatolia to steal the lands, killing muslims. With UK support.

Colonialism of Western capitalism,starting from 16th century, surrounded Ottoman Empire,they discovered ocean trade ways,got rich along with the process of extermination of millions of natives in America,Africa,Oceanasia, Australia.Pax-Ottoman got poor every passing year because the Mediterrenean and Silk Road,Spice Road trade ways lost their importance. North Atlantic countries started to get rich, and carry the capital to their homelands, inside mercantilizm and exploitation.

Same colonialism, started to look Ottoman lands.Countries in Africa and Balcans started to get free one by one,due to Western colonialism's plans on world. Greece,Egypt,Cyprus were UK tool, on East mediterrenean, on the way going to India. Other North Africans were used by France. Apart from Greece,rest of the Balcans were competition subject for Austria,Russia,Germany.

Ottoman lands got smaller with time and competetion of colonialism, started to threaten existance of Empire. Empire survived in 19th century because UK,France,Russia and Germany couldnt deal on sharing. Eventually , because of this sharing problem on earth, WW1 happened.

To share and exploit Anatolia,and the lands arround it, Balcans and Caucaus ; method they found was using the Christian minorities. Against Turk-Muslim rule, teasing the other items against them. Creating hostility.

Finally M.Kemal and cadre arround him defeated this enemies and established Turkey.

***

i am leaving this place, only thing staying in my mind is, turks are not wanted in anatolia. We will see dear friends

But, world is changing..

This Armenian case is used to weaken Turkey, like other cases ; debt conditions, pkk-north iraq, aegean,cyprus. Turkish freedom war between 1919-22 has been an example for all exploited nations on earth,in Latin America,Africa. Today, most of the exploited countries reached their independance,some of them playing important role in world economy,politics and strategy. At Bandung Conferance's 50th anniversary, China,India and 116 other Asian and African countries gathered and declared contestation against exploitation and agreed on politic,economic solidarity.

[thinktwice]

Actually, there is no such thing as the "archives of the Ottoman Empire", in the way that the word "archives" is understood by western researchers.

The best archives, in the sense of the most complete and comprehensive archives, are those found in Britain. Italy and France come a close second. Every word that has been spoken in the House of Commons is religiously recorded and published, and has been for hundreds of years. Same for every word spoken in closed committees and in private meetings, and for the advice civil servants gave - and for the evidence that those civil servants put together to formulate that advice. (Only that little fascist Blair has chosen to ignore these procedures that guarantee democracy.)

No such thing exists for the Ottoman empire archives. It is a just a mixed collection of unrelated documents, written using a dead alphabet in a dead language. What were the procedures in place within the Ottoman Empire for the collection, collation, and preservation of state archives? What was recorded, what was not. Until we know what these archives actually are, and what they are not, it is pointless to even look at them!

deny of real Ottoman Archives = unlimited denial of diaspora

diaspora proud of you brainless bell-the-cat...

And maybe you can show us archives of Britain, France, Italy(!) and Russians(oh you forgot them)...

[Anonymouse]

deny of real Ottoman Archives = unlimited denial of diaspora

diaspora proud of you brainless bell-the-cat...

And maybe you can show us archives of Britain, France, Italy(!) and Russians(oh you forgot them)...

What are you whining about?

[cemil]

Bye

M.K.Atatürk said ;

'' Apart from big exagerrations done with hostile feelings, Armenian relocation is this : When Russian army started their big attack against us in 1915 , Dashnak Armenian commitee which was working for Tsar, teased the Armenian community behind the front line. Our army had to recede because enemy army was stronger by number and material ,while we recede, we were staying between 2 fire. Transport and wounded convoys were attacked,murdered, bridges,roads behind us were destroyed and Turkish villages were in terror.

The Armenians who can use weapon, were joining this murder gangs. They were obtaining weapon, ammunition and food supplies from Armenian villages.The villages, where they had been reserving stocks ,starting before the war, with the advantages of capitulations they had got,the capitulations provided by some big states.

The world can not blame us rightfully because of this decision we had to take , while they disregard England’s responsibility in Ireland, the things they have done in peace time. The emiggrants are relocated and they are alive; and if Allies hadn’t force us to fight again, they would have returned to their homes.

Following Brest-Litowsk Treaty, while Russians were leaving our Eastern cities, we know enough the massacre and destruction Armenian gangs had done. American General Harbord, who visited the cities later, recognised and witnessed Armenian treatment. American public-opinion can learn useful knowladge from him. Dashnak commitees continued their murder in Kars and Olti, until Alexandropol(Gümrü) Treaty.

The Wilson Project, which wants thousands of Armenians to direct millions of Turks,is only funny.’’

February 26,1921

[ArmoBarbi]

Has anyone else wondered what kind of a life a person would have to have to spend their time on other peoples' forums with the goal of stirring things up and making enemies.... don't you guys have like jobs...families...hobbies?

Go take a tour of Eastern Turkey, look at the old Armenian architecture...have some fun, guys. If you dont like that idea, you can always brush up on your English grammar skills...not to mention your sense of humor.

Then if you still wanna join a forum that badly, I suggest one that is actually Turkish...you guys seem to get confused about whats Turkish and whats not quite easily. Its not hard. Just think about it.

[bell-the-cat]

Anatolia is Turk land. Turks came here 1000 years ago. When Turks invaded Anatolia and Balcans, the local people were suffering inside feudal serf-slave system and accepted Turk rule.Armenians were here before Turks came.They claim they are kids of Urartu. Not only them, Georgians are Urartus' kids too. All people of region are Urartus’ kids. Main point is, Ottomans created a stronger and more peaceful system than East Rome - Byzantion.The Ottoman invasions were not cruelty, but millions of serf villagers suffering inside high taxes of Byzantion and other kingdoms like Serbian,accepted Turk sovereignity. Inside Pax-Ottoman , Armenians and Greeks had chance to keep their church,language and do business and get wealthy.

Western colonialism tried to steal-exploit Ottoman lands, where Ottoman created a peaceful system letting non-muslims exist ,do business and get wealthy.This western colonialism used the non-muslim minorities to reach their aims.

This laughable fantasy of Cemil's shows that it isn't worth discussing anything with him.
Is Cemil a natural idiot, or has he decided to be stupid as an easier and quicker alternative to being educated and honest?

[thinktwice]

Has anyone else wondered what kind of a life a person would have to have to spend their time on other peoples' forums with the goal of stirring things up and making enemies.... don't you guys have like jobs...families...hobbies?

Go take a tour of Eastern Turkey, look at the old Armenian architecture...have some fun, guys. If you dont like that idea, you can always brush up on your English grammar skills...not to mention your sense of humor.

Then if you still wanna join a forum that badly, I suggest one that is actually Turkish...you guys seem to get confused about whats Turkish and whats not quite easily. Its not hard. Just think about it.

Actually i'm having fun with brainwashed Armenian people...

For my grammar, it's my second language so it's ok for me. As you see everybody understanding my messages...

For your trip idea, I think it must be you to take a tour to eastern anatolia and see your ancestor's architecture. Because Armenians who are living in US only see genocide memorials. So sad...

And for your Turkish suggestion, thanks but i don't need it...

[bell-the-cat]

deny of real Ottoman Archives = unlimited denial of diaspora

Then enlighen us, oh unthinkingtwice one. What were the purposes, remits, methods of recording, and ranges of the "Ottoman archives" at the time they were being compiled? And what vicissitudes of history have they undergone since their compilation?

[bell-the-cat]

For your trip idea, I think it must be you to take a tour to eastern anatolia and see your ancestor's architecture.

And see what the Turks have done to it.
Like here:
Surp Grigor
Varzahan
Khtzkonk
Tekor
Arakelots
Adilcevaz