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Let us all reason, for the well being of humanity.

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  • #1

    Let us all reason, for the well being of humanity.

    Hi everyone,

    I must first start by saying that I completly understnad, try to at least, the reasons you give to call what happened in 1915 a so-called genocide. Yes a lot of people got killed. That was true for both ways though. Everybody needs to be objective.

    You are making everyone believe that the Armenians didn't do anything and only the Turks are to blame. You can not call what happened in the nature of a war a genocide. Especially, if it is not solely aganst a certian race. So comparing it with Hitler is ridicilous. If race was an issue then how were there so many Armanians left in Turkey, whom currently live in peace.

    all these actions that have been taken, is it really a matter of compensation or is it simply to take revenge. No body here is including how the Armenians teamed up with the other forces to fight against Turkey. How can you expect the Turkish army (recognize the poverty level the country was at, at that time) give flowers or ignore the people who have raped all those women, who killed all those children, who has cut all those pregnant women's stomach to take the children out and fed it back to the Turkish people. How dare you call it a genocide given the nature of the era.

    Of course an action had to be taken. What else is expected? I know that I am going to get alot of unsensible responses to this message, I might get banned, or I they might not simply post this thread. It is worth trying however. Whoever is reading this must understand that what ever happened was not agains the Armenian race overall, it was against the people that acted in a way that was jepordizing the countries future.

    I mourn for all those Turks and Armanians that left this world for nothing. I hope I will have some followers. Even one person that thinks the way that I do will make me satisfied. I know it is very naive to think about how we can all live together in peace, but that must be our purpose. Not hurting each other... Ambition and revenge won't bring anything back and won't take you any where. Let us all be the change we want to see in this world.

    Best wishes,
    CAN
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Amazing. By simply seeing the title of this I knew it'd be one of those tired old genocide-denialist posts. But let me respond to some of it anyway because its rather enjoyable, though my better sensabilities tell me I shouldn't even bother because there'd be no convincing you anyway.
    You said: "No body here is including how the Armenians teamed up with the other forces to fight against Turkey."
    Your use of other forces first of all imply plural forces. Who were these "forces"? Armenians don't deny that some Armenians fought with the Russians, but can you blame them? Seeing as half of Armenian-populated lands were UNDER Russian control, can you blame those Armenians for fighting for Russia? They were fighting for their nation, which is exactly what your point of view said they should. Many Armenians in the Ottoman Empire joined the Ottoman army or complied with the army's drafting of them. Of course that's what helped so many of them get killed. So when you are in the situation of join the Ottoman army during 1915 and be killed, or fight against that army to help save your family.
    You also can't deny the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire, a Muslim state, had lived under horrible conditions in the past few decades before 1915. For example the pogroms of Abdul-Hamid II in 1895 were still fresh in Armenian's minds. Put yourself in that situation. Imagine you were part of a Turkish minority in an Armenian empire. A neighboring Muslim nation whom the Armenian Empire was at war with were marching in. The Armenians, who had been mistreating your group for decades, come to your town to draft you into their army to fight against the invading Muslims, who share your religion and appear to be a beacon of light to free you of the treatorous Armenians. Are you telling me you'd fight with the people that had mistreated your family for years, and were beginning to kill your family members? If you put yourself in the position of the Armenians, its a lot easier to see why some Armenians chose to fight with the Russians against the Turks, with whom they had very little in common.

    You said: "If race was an issue then how were there so many Armanians left in Turkey, whom currently live in peace.
    Yes, so basically what your saying is proof that what happened 90 years ago next Sunday was NOT genocide is the fact that the small Armenian community left in Turkey (read: Istanbul) today are not being genocided. They number only about a few ten thousands and shrink every year. If you look throughout the rest of Turkey, there are only handfuls of Armenians in the various towns that used to be big Armenian villages. OF COURSE there isn't a genocide going on of the rest of the Istanbul Armenians, Turks are involved in a big campaign to enter the EU and to deny the genocide ever happened. Genociding what's left of the Armenians of Turkey would certainly defeat both causes, now wouldn't it?? I can't believe people use the present to disprove the past, it makes no sense. The Armenian community of Istanbul meanwhile are not able to open any new churches, have their old ones occassionally repossed by the state, and was severely lessened in size during tumolts against them in the 1950s and at many other incidents throughout the 20th century. I personally have relatives that fled the genocide to Istanbul, where they had to flee again during the 50s which was an awful time against the Armenians there.
    You said: "(recognizing the poverty level the country was at, at that time)...How dare you call it a genocide given the nature of the era.
    So you are saying poverty makes genocide OK? 1933 Germany, when Hitler took power, was probably the poorest state that EVER existed. Inflation was like 500%, not sure of the exact figure but that's unlikely to be an exaggeration. Bread seriously cost tens of thousands of marks. THAT was poverty unheard of even in 1915 Ottoman Empire. Then the Nazis happened. So because of Germany's poverty, we can excuse them for the Holocaust? Somehow I don't think the world would buy such an excuse from Hitler if he had lived, so why do you see fit to excuse the people who, as you admit, "has cut all those pregnant women's stomach to take the children out" (something relatives of mine witnessed themselves in the genocide), for the very same reason?
    You said: "I know that I am going to get alot of unsensible responses to this message." Well I hope you don't see my response of "unsensible". I feel that I replied to your allegations in a cogent and very sensible manner, that I hope you look at with an open mind yourself and consider.
    "Ambition and revenge won't bring anything back." Who said anything about revenge? Of course some Armenians have iin the past taken revenge on the Turks. That is a sad fact that came from this genocide denial. I will be the first to denounce such acts. But you don't see the Armenians of today murdering Turks wholesale as revenge. Instead, we have put our actions into recognition for our tragedy. You seem to be equating making the Turks admit their mistakes to REVENGE. Is the Jews making Germany recognize the Holocaust some sort of evil revenge?
    I am not trying to say that every Armenian during the genocide was wholly innocent, there are bad people in every group, but its clear the actions of a few Armenians, especially considering the circumstances that pushed them to that edge, hardly warranted the destruction of the entire nation. For example, out of all my ancestors that were killed, none of them were in the process of collaborating with the Russians. They were living their normal lives in their villages, when they received knocks on the doors and sent on long marches to their deaths. One of my ancestors was even drafted into the army by the Ottomans, which he dutifully complied with along with the other Armenians of the village. They didn't return when they were supposed to though, and when Armenians of the village went to look for them, they were found, but being shot by the same army soldiers that had taken them away days before. They were killed for their compliance. Soon after the rest of the village were sent on the march.
    Don't forget as well, many of the Armenians who "joined the Russians" were members of the diaspora who received reports of the genocide. My great-grandfather was one of them. You can't call him a traitor, because at the time he joined the Russian army he had moved to America and was no longer an Ottoman citizen. His wife and daughters were sent on the death marches and vanished, so can you blame him for fighting for his family?

    Comment

    • #3
      Originally posted by toki
      Hi everyone,

      I must first start by saying that I completly understnad, try to at least, the reasons you give to call what happened in 1915 a so-called genocide. Yes a lot of people got killed. That was true for both ways though. Everybody needs to be objective.

      You are making everyone believe that the Armenians didn't do anything and only the Turks are to blame. You can not call what happened in the nature of a war a genocide. Especially, if it is not solely aganst a certian race. So comparing it with Hitler is ridicilous. If race was an issue then how were there so many Armanians left in Turkey, whom currently live in peace.

      all these actions that have been taken, is it really a matter of compensation or is it simply to take revenge. No body here is including how the Armenians teamed up with the other forces to fight against Turkey. How can you expect the Turkish army (recognize the poverty level the country was at, at that time) give flowers or ignore the people who have raped all those women, who killed all those children, who has cut all those pregnant women's stomach to take the children out and fed it back to the Turkish people. How dare you call it a genocide given the nature of the era.

      Of course an action had to be taken. What else is expected? I know that I am going to get alot of unsensible responses to this message, I might get banned, or I they might not simply post this thread. It is worth trying however. Whoever is reading this must understand that what ever happened was not agains the Armenian race overall, it was against the people that acted in a way that was jepordizing the countries future.

      I mourn for all those Turks and Armanians that left this world for nothing. I hope I will have some followers. Even one person that thinks the way that I do will make me satisfied. I know it is very naive to think about how we can all live together in peace, but that must be our purpose. Not hurting each other... Ambition and revenge won't bring anything back and won't take you any where. Let us all be the change we want to see in this world.

      Best wishes,
      CAN

      This is not about revenge, it is about justice. But before you can understand a simple concept as such, you must first learn to look into yourself. Most Turks can't do that, and which is why they live in ignorance. The only truth they know is the one filtered by their government. And contrary to what you think, I am not responding "unsensibly".

      So before you come to this forum spewing your Turkish propaganda you must first educate thy mind to understand what the issue is. Before you can do that, any discussion is hopeless with preconceived and ignorant minds.
      Achkerov kute.

      Comment

      • #4
        toki - the level of your ignorance is numbing. You have been fed a line of lies by your government (and media) - part of the great cover-up that you are ingesting and spitting back at us. The charges that you make against Armenians are what was done to Armenians not the other way around. Are you really so lame as to not be able to figure it out for yourself? Armenians suffered a hundred years or more of abuse and took it - they didn't have much choice - they were a minority group at the mercy of the Sultan and later the CUP who both weilded state power and used roving Kurd and Circassian bands against them...not to mention the organized slaughter of innocents - of more then a million people! ...done with utter barbarity - by released murderers and other psychopaths. And just what happened to all the Armenians of Anatolia? Do you really have no clue? And you have the gaul to come here and preach to us? You should be begging our forgiveness. If I could kill you now I would be happy to do it (and don't think I won't one day follow up with you & yours....big time - so you and your fellow Turks have an incentive to come to terms - yes - if you wish to be sparred). Go educate yourself before spewing your ignorance out upon this site. Yes naive you certainly are. Grow up, make an attempt to learn something. Put your ideals to some useful purpose. In the meantime - Go away!

        Comment

        • #5
          Wow....that was a very un-winoman like post. =|

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by Crimson Glow
            Wow....that was a very un-winoman like post. =|

            I'm just tired of this kind of crap. And face it - our patience can only last for so long. I am happy to discuuss things, to be friendly with Turks who are friendly as well (and don't insult me like this) - but I also draw the line - these type of lies that are perpetuated and spewed back really piss me off. And the Turkish Government really pisses me off - sometimes to the degree where I think a sacrifice of 80+ million Turks might be worth it to make a point!

            Comment

            • #7
              this is their 'attempt' to be perceived as a civilized people by the world! "let us move on and live in peace?" we WILL move on once justice is served! but of course as others have said, the mass inside your head cannot fathom such things! go away and spend your time with things you do understand.

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by hyebruin
                this is their 'attempt' to be perceived as a civilized people by the world! "let us move on and live in peace?" we WILL move on once justice is served! but of course as others have said, the mass inside your head cannot fathom such things! go away and spend your time with things you do understand.
                I get so sick too. Just look at the terrible spin in this article. It was written for a Turkish journal so it has zero creditability, but still, look how every single thing is either spun or (in the case of the "523,000 Turks killed by Armenian nationals") completely made up. http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg108806.html
                I always laugh with that 523,000 figure, which was never even known until some random Turkish "historian" made it up and announced it last year. They love to say 1.5 million Armenians couldn't have been murdered because the population of Anatolian Armenians were less than 1 million. Well if that's the case, and you consider how half of that 1 million or less were women, and then at least half of those were too young/too old, you have the figure of 250,000 Armenian "nationalists" out killing Turks in the genocide, IF and only if every single Armenian male between 18-50 or whatever was out killing Turks. If, and only if, that occured, then each of those would have to kill two Turks to meet that number. Think about how improbable that is! Everyone knowns there weren't bands of 250,000 Armenians combing the countryside killing innocent Turks, (though I'd like to hear the Turkish estimates of how many actually were), but whatever the number the math equals probably 3-5 Turks being killed by each of those to reach the 523,000 figure.

                Comment

                • #9
                  I understand the concerns that you all carry... Honestly, I don't have too much time because I got daily things to take care of. I will be as brief as possible eventhough it is a very sensitive subject regarding Turkey and Armenia. It is in such magnitudes that will be bad for the reputation of Turkey and the future of Armenia.

                  First of all, some have read this topic maturely some have not. I, of course, can not tell you how to react to this situation. I am concerned however. It is a vicious cycle. You know very well that so-called genocide will not be accepted. In my OPINION, with regards to the historical evidence, it was not a genocide.

                  Someone said that you wanted justice. I understand that you are upset for all of those sacrifices. Yet again, I am too. But we won't be able to go any where with "if"s. What if this didn't happen? What would have happened if...? and so forth. I regretfully say that a lot of people that shouldn't have died from both sides.

                  i remember reading from someone's answer that Turkey is not civilized, just trying to be. Also, that we are living in ignorance. If you are calling a nation that has so much history not civilized, think again. We are not living in ignorance, we are living for the well being of our geographic area, and we are adapting to the changing attributes of this world. If you keep thinking about the past you won't be able to think about the future.

                  Nothing, I or anybody says is going to change of course. After all, everybody hears what they want to hear. You might think that I am being ridicilous about not calling it genocide and I think vice-versa.

                  Now,the reason why Armenians in Istanbul and some other parts of the country are living is because they didn't sell their neighbours, they didn't sell the soil that they were living on. For those who don't know, I have met so many Armenian people, and we are living in peace. We are playing soccer in the same field, and drink water from the same bottle.

                  Let's talk about justice a little. It is justice that you want. You think tht if Turkey compensates Armenia justice is going to be fulfilled. So it is not about the people that died, and how upset you are about them. It is only about getting some money out of this "deal". What are you going to do? Wait Turkey decide whether it was a genocide or not, so that the lost amount could be compensated and could be used in the well-being of Armenia. You are going to wait for a very long time then... I can assure you that that is not going to happen, not in this decade at least.

                  Everybody has been trying so hard. Armenian lobbies are created in the states, several movies have been filmed. We are still being as silent as possible so that the Armenians in Turkey aren't disturbed.

                  Also, I have read some comments about me. We are not here to make comments about individuals right. I have took my time to register to this thing and to converse, let's not involve stereotypes...

                  Best wishes,
                  CAN

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by toki
                    I understand the concerns that you all carry... Honestly, I don't have too much time because I got daily things to take care of. I will be as brief as possible eventhough it is a very sensitive subject regarding Turkey and Armenia.
                    If you don't have time to participate in the thread, why did you make it?

                    Comment

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