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Let us all reason, for the well being of humanity.

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  • #21
    Originally posted by toki
    Allright, I give up. I wanted to talk, I have been attacked that is fine. I don't give a crap honestly. Try getting the so-called genocide approved. Let's just hope that true justice is served...

    For your information my grandmother was Armenian and my grandfather was Assyrian...

    Peace
    Today I was at school and some lady with a giant picket sign was standing which said "Let Turkey join the EU". I proceeded to go up to her and made her laff with the following joke.

    Q: What do you get when you microwave a chicken and some canned peas?

    A: Toki!

    She laffed so hard she decided to take her sign and leave, but not before stopping by the restroom.
    Achkerov kute.

    Comment

    • #22
      I'de like to know just what is your definition of genocide. Also I have here some quotes from variouse Turkish leaders you might find interesting:

      Enver Pasha
      One of the triumvirate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916...

      The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.

      Talat Pasha
      In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915...

      Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.
      After the German Ambassador persistently brought up the Armenian question in 1918, Talat said "with a smile"...

      What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.

      Mustafa Arif
      Minister of Interior stated on 13 December 1918...

      Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them. (note the use of the word 'extermination')


      and last but not least, if you will not hear the truth from an Armenian's mouth, then hear it from one of your own:

      Prince Abdul Mecid
      Heir-Apparent to the Ottoman Throne, during an interview...

      I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true that they intended to recommence the massacres which had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid. The only reply I could get from him was: 'It is decided. It is the program.'

      Comment

      • #23
        Originally posted by toki
        Allright, I give up. I wanted to talk, I have been attacked that is fine. I don't give a crap honestly. Try getting the so-called genocide approved. Let's just hope that true justice is served...

        For your information my grandmother was Armenian and my grandfather was Assyrian...

        Peace
        My grandmother was Assyrian and my grandfather is Armenian....what's your point?

        By the way, everyone in the global community knows what Turkey did... Some will not yet admit it because of international relations but make no mistake, a majority of the world knows what really happened. Those that don't know, will surely find out in due time.

        It's not about revenge or reperations... It's about truth, and it's about not letting a nation sweep aside its attrocities under the rug. Mostly, its to ensure nothing like that EVER happens to anyone ever again!

        Hope you have a great day

        Comment

        • #24
          Originally posted by toki
          Allright, I give up. I wanted to talk, I have been attacked that is fine. I don't give a crap honestly. Try getting the so-called genocide approved. Let's just hope that true justice is served...

          For your information my grandmother was Armenian and my grandfather was Assyrian...

          Peace
          hahahahahahahahahahaha! etc

          ...not atttacking you dude - just your ignorance - if your OK with that (being ignorant) then thats your problem - don't put the onus on us...

          And funny that you admit that you "don't give a crap honestly" - so if true - leave it to those thaty do (and might you not think that we may just know, understand and emote a bit more about this issue then you? yeah - so if you don't care then what right do you have to dis us - pig)....and I would like to express my condolences in advance for you feeling the fool once you finally figure it out (if ever - and this is a true test of your intellect - though my money is that you fail...)...so Ok - sionara a-hole!

          Comment

          • #25
            Originally posted by toki
            Allright, I give up. I wanted to talk, I have been attacked that is fine. I don't give a crap honestly. Try getting the so-called genocide approved. Let's just hope that true justice is served...

            For your information my grandmother was Armenian and my grandfather was Assyrian...

            Peace
            Wow, you've set the record for chickeniest retreat in the quickest amount of time. I find it funny that you come in here with a screen name Toki (just add an r and presto), deny the genocide, then claim to be Armenian. Sure it's possible that you are, but I am curious what it is that makes you deny the genocide, as an "Armenian"? I didn't see any sladerous attacks going on here that would make you have to leave, did you expect us to welcome you with flowers and not try to show you the error of your ways? It just seems like another Turkish conspiracy so you can claim you've tried to reason with Armenians but all those blood-thirsty people did was attack you mercilessly and silenced all decent. If you can state your opinion, why can't we without being seen as attacking you? Now sure it's possible for you to be an "Armenian", there are self-hating Jews that deny the Holocaust, but what is it that made you think it wasn't a genocide, and that Turks suffered just as awful if not worse, when it is likely that you're whole life has been shaped by the genocide. While I don't know where you live now, I can bet its not Eastern Turkey so your life has indeed been impacted by the genocide is extreme ways. Have you learned nothing from where you came from?

            Comment

            • #26
              He is not Armenian - he is a very naughty boy - now buzz off! (quote provided by Mrs Brian of nazareth)

              Comment

              • #27
                inch chanasiz ek! :P u guys talk too much! i can't read all of that! :P

                Comment

                • #28
                  Great job Winoman you easily tore apart the Turks idea of truth item by item. I doubt he will even counter argue since he has not even have a clue and is so close minded to reality. Even if he replies it will be much of the same. Its just more of the same denial that has been breed into the majority of Turkish people who continue to hate the Armenian people.

                  Comment

                  • #29
                    Toki - As winoman said, the only thing we're attacking is the ignorance of what you say, not so much you personally. Let me give you a different example to put it into perspective for you:

                    Let's say "boy racer" just bought a Honda. He knew nothing about cars until it was brought to his attention in a popular movie, so he does some "research" after buying it. He reads the promises and claims written on the containers for the aftermarket modifications he buys, he goes through some Car Domain pages with similar cars, and reads what kind of "power" people with the same mods are putting out, etc. In other words, in his opinion, his info has come from "reliable, experienced professionals" in the field of Honda tuning.

                    So...."boy racer" joins a REAL car club, and starts spouting about how his 190 stock horsepower car is now up to 300 due to a K&N filter, a cat back exhaust, and a performance chip. The first thing that's going to happen when you tell true car enthusiasts about this is they're going to laugh their asses off. Then they're going to rip your comments a new one. "Boy racer" argues "but....the K&N filter box said adds 20 hp, and everyone on Car Domain said the cat back exhaust adds 60 hp. And the chip manufacturer said it's good for an extra 30 hp. I know what I'm talking about, I have proof. You guys are idiots. You think you know better then these professionals?"

                    Again, as well educated as boy racer thinks he is on the subject because he has been fed info (from biased sources, mind you), those that are well experienced in cars in general know that all his mods together will add maybe 20 hp, if that. They don't buy into propaganda from people artificially manufacturing the "truth" (for the products), or gather info from other morons that don't know anything about the subject other then to regurgitate the same garbage they've been fed from similar morons. They know their info because of experience of actually being IN the field with many different cars, and seeing the Dyno results for various mods to said cars.

                    But...they rip "boy racer" a new one, not so much because they hate his guts, but because they're sick and tired of people who are ignorant about the subject coming into their club of true experts, and actually trying to lecture them on what mods put out what horsepower. Not only is it beyond insulting for this person to suggest that he has a clue, and perhaps even a better one then the experts, but repetitiveness of such events is also very aggravating. The people that were into cars long before ricers became a fad, reading from a variety of unbiased, reliable sources, realize it's a pointless waste of time to argue with someone who wants to convince themselves they just pulled off 300 hp out of a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder with just the stated mods. Thus, they'll just ridicule "boy racer's" "info", and move on. Either he realizes that he's been taught all wrong, or he's going to live forever within the comfort of his ignorance (comfort because it's what he wants to hear)".

                    Do you understand now?

                    "Clutch it like a cornerstone,
                    otherwise it all comes down.
                    Terrified of being wrong,
                    ultimatum prison cell."

                    Comment

                    • #30
                      I just sighned up today, I am a Turkish for your info.

                      I read with serious interest what all you guys wrote.

                      I also congratulate "reasoning skills" of winoman. S/He is a good writer.

                      I am here just "to learn" what the Turks & Armenians think about "the subject".

                      There are a lot about Toki's post to critisize about. But also some about winoman, as far as i see.

                      1. First, you all call him "denialist". Whatever he says, in whatever reasoning, i understand, if not all, most of you will keep labeling him "denialist".

                      This is not a good way to start "teaching the denialist" the "true history"

                      2. You label Toki, as someone "just knows what his xxxxty governments allowed him to learn". Ok. You might be right. BUT, how about your oppinions? Are they really "objective"? Are your oppinions/knowledge cannot be as well a result of "one-sided indoctrination"?

                      3. Correction: In some posts there were statement like: leaders of then Ottoman/Turkish leaders wanted to create a "unified "(i understand the poster meant "ethnically prufied") Turkey and wanted to get of Christians and genocided "Christians". First of all "the people in question, whether you call it genocide or not were not all Christians, but only Armenian's in 6 East Provinces. Turkey and Greece signed a population exchange Agreement in 1924. (Since Greeks were/are also Christians, there would not be any greeks to exchange in 1924, if all "christians" were killed/relocated.)

                      We all, Turkish/Armenian, need to learn to discuss in a civilized way first.
                      We need to clean out all fables/one-sided stories first.
                      We need to purge all prejudices from our heads first.

                      I have been a dissident student throughout all my education. If history books said "there is no such thing as Armenian-genocide", i thought the opposite. I thought, like in a Turkish proverb says: "If there was no fire, there would not be smoke" (If there was nothing like a "Armenian massacre", there would not be any "genocide claims"). Untill recently, i was totally believing that an "Armenian Genocide" occured, but after reading some articles from internet (not from Turkish history books), my mind blurred about the subject.

                      I would like to learn the "story" from u guys.

                      Before this, I would like to speak about some prejudices in my cultural upbringing and ask some questions about them, also some other questions:

                      1. I grew up in Cilicia region. There, if you do something horrible, people call you, insult you as, "Seed of Armenian" (Not "son of", but "seed of"). If we remember the same Turkish proverb, "If there was no fire, there would not be smoke", this "smoke (Seed of Armenian)", as well, must have a "fire (a reason)", my logic dictates me. (Maybe this is the result of a collective memory of a mass-rape of Turks by Armenians ? Just a thought, please enlighten me.)

                      2. Before the Kosovo War, all media indoctrinated us that 500 thousand Albanians have been killed. After the War, we found out the supposed dead-count was exagerated, all killed by Serbs was not even reaching 50 thousand. If, in the information age, we could be fooled by media, that half million Kosovans has been slaughtered by Serbs, why it could not be in the Armenian case? A big exageration of deads might had happen there as well. Just a thought again. (Clarification: 20 thousond dead and 1.5 dead doesnt change the level of crime. But, exageration,makes the crime more fable-like, and difficult to believe.)


                      3. After the Kosova War, we saw many Kosovars "found their loved ones, they assumed to be kiied by Serbs". Government of Serbia had an "ethnic cleansing policy", that is purge all Albanians "out of Kosovo". At the other side, Ottoman Turkey, recolacated, or as one of the posters said above, "forced them for death march", "inside the country". In this "death march", might be possible that some armenians "assume" their loved ones killed by turks, even thoug they are livin some other country, Syria, Lebanon, Argentina, USA, or elsevere, all relatives counting the other relatives as "killed". Just another thought. I need your oppinions.

                      3. Why the hell, Turks didnt massacre the Greeks of Turkey, even when it was at war with Greece? But it did (we assume it did) to innocent Armenians? Any thoughts?

                      4. Have anyone of you read the Tashnaksutyun Party Program of 1871- on ?
                      I didnt read it full, I was not able to find. If anyone has a weblink, post please.

                      Thanks for posts in advance.

                      Comment

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