Let us all reason, for the well being of humanity.

[cemil]

"Ambition and revenge won't bring anything back." Who said anything about revenge? Of course some Armenians have iin the past taken revenge on the Turks. That is a sad fact that came from this genocide denial.

..said in the 1st or second reply, to the starting post.

What can be talked with such people, he is clearly backing the assasinations done against many ambassadors working in western countries, during70s ,80s, justifying them, because of denial.

Well , i deny too.

Oh dont you take revenge anymore??

Be sensible boy, if you do like this, you will never find anyone to discuss, and you will keep living in fantasy land.

**
Armenia is created by big countries forcing, without any natural base, for a country to appear.
**
A country appeared just to be tool of big countries on the region. They dont have a history as a nation. They dont have anything to be proud of.
They just try to keep an artificial nationalism upon hate of a nation.

A nation who let them live in peace for 900 years..
**
Dont make Turks regret ,that they had let you survive for 900 years.

**

We still respect their country, we dont have any offensing ask-claim..they still can say, denial can be a reason to assasinate.

What can we talk more.

**
Keep on, you will see genocide confirmed in 31th of february next year

[cemil]

Firstly, you will respect the things that you must respect in the name of 'humanity'.

You will respect the people who had let you live in peace, keep your culture,language,religion, and so you survived and walk arround globe now.

You will respect the people who let you have your own Gregorian Church in 1461,in Istanbul, when Christian world were extarnalizing you ,and anathema decision taken by 451 Chalcedon Council, because of Gregorian-monofizit belief ( an argument about Jesus Christ that Gregoarian believe different than rest of Christians), you will respect the Sultan Mehmet II ,firstly recognized you as a nation on earth,and established your church.

You will respect number of '900' years. World history started in 3500 BC ,in mesopotamia, with Sümer civilisation discovered writing. Its 1/6 of History of Humanity.

Then, you will respect your own country

You will be aware of your height and kilogram, your population, your effect in the region of Caucaus, you will be aware of Turkey's capacity and your capacity, and then you will 'respect' all of these you have been aware of.

Then you will start to talk, and find listener.

[thinktwice]

cemil don't tell them truths so direct, they can be ruined

btw they didn't even respect their overlords (Ottoman Empire) and revolted. Diaspora on move here who are the sons of rebellions... so don't bother...

[cemil]

They make every insult and misusing the facts, they seperate the facts they like, they dont see the facts totally, and create a myth, and put Turkey is rough condition.

Then if we talk offensive, they will take it as proof , Turks are militarist like this.

What a wonderful world!

Anatolia is the most beautiful geography of earth and Turkish Republic will live here till infinity. IN PEACE, you either accept our offers of peace and cope well, quit the claims exist in your constitution , that east antolia is west armenia; or you continue living on lies.

[cemil]

nairi u can keep ur ignorant racist partisan assasinator arse here, and keep reading and learn a bit.

You started first, just like you started 100 years ago

[TomServo]

cemil don't tell them truths so direct, they can be ruined

btw they didn't even respect their overlords (Ottoman Empire) and revolted. Diaspora on move here who are the sons of rebellions... so don't bother...

Better to be the descendant of people who tried to make a difference than of ruthless, bloodthirsty overlords - don't you think? No, your Turkish ancestors were great. They made us some baklava and everybody had a great time.

[winoman]

First of all let me say RookieDenier - I was wrong about you initially - you are just as bad as the rest. There is no "debate" - the facts of the Genocide and the surrounding issues are well known and have been well analised by scholars. There is also a wide body of literature concerning Genocide denial - regarding the Armenain case in specific and in general. What you people are doing is exemplifing this behavior. It si so sad - that your ignorance (stated/admitted even) and nationalism (also cleary stated by some of the Truks such as Cemil) are driving you thus. So it is clearly a waste of our time to debate you and I won't do it - I've really wasted my time enough on this. I understand "both sides" of the story. I thought that perhaps you wished some enlightenment and understanding - but it is clear that your mind is made up and you have an agenda - oh well so it goes.

winoman-
You intially come to us claiming ignorance and seeking knowledge - as if you are open minded on this

Its true I dnot know much about armenian side of the story.

Its not just the Armenian "side" - it is the actual history that you refuse to acknowledge for reasons that are laughable and false.

winoman-
where you are getting into this accusation that we "Armenians' are brainwashed on this issue.

I didnt say "Armenians are brain-washed" What i said is:
You see Turks as a "denialist generation"
We see you as a "generation brain washed to believe that there were a genocide".

My observation has two sides, not only accusing one side only.

There are many who understand all "sides" - but conclusion of Genocide stands - easily. Get yourself educated. And yes you are accusing us of being brainwashed - very funny comming form one such as you...

winoman-
you are claiming that somhow new facts have come to light on the "Turkish side" and so on and so forth - well this is dangerous game.

I didnt say "Turkish side miracoulously discovered some new facts to refute Armenian claims. What i said is, "You did your factfinding/indoctrination/brainwashing yourself, we did our factfinding/indoctrination/brainwashing ourselves. Now we need to come together to "compare facts", to find out the truth.

This has been done long ago and continues. That you are so dense to not understand is your problem.

winoman-
First of all there is no truth to these claims of yours. The essential facts are all known because of the nature of the great amount of eyewitness data.

Yea eyewitness data very accurate, we saw it in Kosovo case, all eyewitnesses claimed to the tv correspondents 100s of 1000s of their loved ones buchered by Serbs, only to find out that thier loved ones assumed to be dead popped out somewere in a camp in Macedonia, Albani etc.

You fail to understand the differences between who eyewitnessed - it was not just the victims but a great many impartial observers whose accounts corroberate each other. If you ever bothered to read German consul reports, American consul reports and other evidence this would be very clear to you - but your blinders are too great - you have a totally pre-concieved version that is false and you fail to acknowledge the facts based upon this - sad.

[QUOTE=RookieArcher] winoman-
Even if much of what the Turks in the propoganda claim are true - it still wouldn not be justification for the very real Genocide that did occur - think about it a bit - and surprise us - show us that you have a bit going for you outside of a Turkish xeno-Nationalist approach.

Eventhough it was not a genocide according to my "denialist" mind, it was a tremendous crime to relocate all those Armenians from their homeland to the another part of the empire. It was even bigger crime that this relocation was done with lack of organization, without enough supplies of food and medicine, and protection.

You satisfied winoman?

No a s s e h o l e (and admitted know nothing) - you whitewash again and again. CUP managed to settle Muslim refugees (into areas emptied of Armenains) during the war with an absolute minimum of loss - fed them, even vaccinated them -and kept good record of the whole thing...BTW they didn't seperate out the men and exucute them first either. So no - there are no grounds to consider the death marches and massacres of Armenians as a relocation (some marches were conducted in circles - going over the same ground over and over) - object was for people to die....and in fact these "relocations" as you call them were very well organized. All of this is well documented BTW - f u c k i n g chump. I'm very tired of the b u l l s h i t from you and yours...I was willing to have an open and factual discussion - but no - your mind is made up and you come armed with larely discredited ammunution and are firing away. You are a waste of our time. And you aparently just haven't bothered reading the serious factual posts I have made on this subject - so why should I even bother?

bell-the-cat-
But, unfortunately, the points that you raise show that you are lacking the background information that you need to properly use that process. For example, the Armenian Genocide did not only affect the "six east provinces". All areas of Turkey were included, including areas as far from any front line as Adapazar, or Ankara, or Kayseri. This is a crucial point for you to explore - since it explodes the official Turkish excuse that the death of Armenians was merely the result of a badly managed wartime evacuation from front-line areas.

You are right. "Relocation" was planned to be restricted for only 6-vilayets. But it covered most of Anatolia. Thanks for contribution. What can i say against a truth, i just confirm. What i dont agree is the term "genocide".

This is what i want. Every one contributing to the pool of facts, cleared of fables/tales/prejudices.

well problem of fables and such is only on your part. We don't care what you think really. The fact that the term Genocide was based on the Ottoman/CUP annhilation of the Armenians and the German/NAZI annhiliation of the European Jews aparently means nothing to you - eh? D i c k h e a d!

bell-the-cat-
His observation, that American propaganda accusing Serbia of committing genocide in Kossovo was ultimately revealed to be nothing more than lies, is a correct observation. It is also entirely reasonable for him to propose, for arguments sake, that this "genocide", invented by America for political reasons, has the same character and substance and function as accusations that Turkey committed genocide against Armenians.

Yea that is why i proposed to examine Kosovo genocide.
It was invented for political reasons. So, why not "Armenian Genocide" be another "invention" by Allied Powers in WWI? Becaouse there were an unprecedented war in history and all sides used all means militarily and verbally (propaganda) to win the war.

I already addressed the level of observation and documentation of such and the fact that masscres also did occur in Kosovo. So lets ask the question now - "Was the Armenain Genocide invented by the Allied Powers?" - Answer - "No - it was brutally conducted by the Turks - it was thoroughly observed and documented - some Turks however just haven't a clue - we normally consider them to be very stupid - and they persist in justifying this depiction" There is your answer - satisfied Rookiedenier?

winoman-
the Armenian Genocide was udertaken in quyite a different environment as the Kosovo (and Bosnian) massacres.

Not exactly. All started same.

ArmenianGenocide/Kosova Genocide

- Armenian/Kosovan desire to be independent.
- Terrorism or guerilla warfare bye Armenian/Kosovan Tashnacks/KLA
- Getting the attantion of the West
- Relocation campaing by Ottoman Turkey / Ethnic cleansing by Serbia
- Fables of genocide by victims (Armenians/KLA)
- Wartime propaganda by Allied Powers/USA

If, Serbia miraculously won the war, now we would be talking about,Kosova Genocide, Half million Albanian dead eventhough the truth was the opposite.Because, those eyewithneses, propaganda speeches, tvreports would be accapted as facts of the KosovoGenocide. Thanks god, serbia lost and serbs dont have to deal with a big accusation.

Yes you know all the answers - not! Again - this is not worth time to even address. Analogies can be made concerning anything - they have no validity - what is valid is that we know - without any doubts - what happend - it is documented and corroberated. So - Up yours!

winoman-
but both of these are typical contentions of Turkish denialists.

I am rewriting some parts of my post here again for you to understand.

Saying that "genocide is not negotiable" is something like "I blame you, you cannot defend yourself, you dont have right to defend, just admit what i am accusing u of".

Even a bloodyhanded killer has the right to defend himself. So why not Turks defend themselves?

The "defense" you propose is based on falsehoods. History has already examined this evidence in a great deal of detail - you are bringing nothing new. The fact of Genocide is non-negotiable - it is a known thing. If you really wished to discuss real issues - such as examioning why the Ottoman Empire and its leaders and people came to such a state - then yes this could be done. But to deny the truth first - make accusations blaming the victims - and continuing along this vein - well no. First you must show that you are willing to step back and uncritically address the issue (not from the partisan official "Turkish perspective" - because what you are advocating here is just that - advocation without proper basis. You fail to see this because you are so embroiled in a constrained worldview. You feel that this issue is stricly an "us versus them" and you are here to score points - etc - well what can I say - you haven't a clue really.

winoman-
IN the Ottoman Empire there was a tremendous foreign presence that bore direct witness on these events.

Ottoman Turkey must have had invited all those to watch the show?
All criminals have some common atribute, they all try to do whatever they want in secret, not in front of others.

The huge presence of foreigners actully shows that the intention of Ottoma Turkey was not kill/destroy/exterminate Armenians.

Any Government with the intention of annihilating a nation would not do it in front of others, at least would not be stupid enough to invite American Eastern Relief Organisation, canadian Relife Organisation, and numerous others for help to feed and take care of relocated people in areas where government is incapabel of.

Yeah sounds good. If you have no understanding of the history - of why these people were there (and had been for 50+ years...) and why the CUP/Ottomans could not really get rid of them you would not have to ask these questions. It is too much for me to recount the whole history right here - especially considering that I am wasting my breath on you - so I will invite you to research it yourself. In the meantime - yes all of these people were there and witnessed what occured - are you denying that they were there? And much was done - attempted anyway - out of site. A great deal was done away from prying eyes.

winoman-
but I'm curious what yor point of concern is in this comparison with Kosovo - is it that you think that this masacre - and by linkage the massacres of Armenains - did not take place - at all - or only that the numbers might be considerabley less then what is commonly accepted?

For something to be "commonly" accepted, all sides must agree on it. ArmenianGenocide is something that lack this agreement.

Accused rejects (denies) it.
Also the WWI era superpower/world policeman (Britain) rejects it.

Numbers are important. because, eventhough killing 20 thousand people and 1.5 million people both crime, bigger and bigger number makes it fable-like, impossible to believe.

Again you betray you pre-conceptions - that you feel you have the answers. Genocide is commonly accepted and the numbers are as well. That the "accused" fails to accept their guilt and is attempting to make every possible excuse - even contradictory - well - that is a symptom of your psychosis and nothing more. That you cannot or choose to not understnad the difference between politics and history - well that is also your problem not mine or ours.

winoman-
the documentary evidence and testimony of those tried and convicted by the pos-war Ottoman military tribunals.

Every revolution, needs to accuse the old regime with something else. Every failure needs a scapegoat. Because of this, every revolutionary/reactionary action lacks objectivity. Furthermore. in those trials, all accused peaplo are convicted not secause of mass killings but wrongdoings (stealing, raping, corruption, using relocation funds for personal interests etc. ) in "relocation".

Wrong. Charges and verdicts are most clear. There was no word for Genocide - and the language seems to dance around it - but the charges and verdicts are most clear.

winoman
i am posting here because i want to have a civilized conversation, and i thought i can do it with you.

I tried to answer all your questions, and i expect the same from you.

labeling people just as "denialist" and seeing what they say as "worthless" will not help neither Turkey, nor Armenians.

To win the case, to bring out the facts,you need to win those "denialists".

I also thank for the valuable contribution of bell-the-cat-

There is no issue of "winning a case" I have no intention of doing such here. I would have been perfectly happy to discuss the issues - but you have shown yourself as intransagent as the other Turks who have recently decended on this forum. Can you actually think that you will be well recieved comming onto an Armenain forum and making such accusations to the decendents of those who survived the Genocide - tha massacres of our families? And do you think you will convince us - through your shoddy arguments that what occured did not? And that the Armenian people are gulity of instigating their own demise? Well these charges have been well disproven in the academic world (and in the archives - even the Ottoman ones BTW) and are reflected in the known history. Are there perhaps some issues to discuss - certainly - but not in this manner with the likes of yo. You have shown us your true colors. I'm done with you.

[TomServo]

nairi u can keep ur ignorant racist partisan assasinator arse here, and keep reading and learn a bit.

You started first, just like you started 100 years ago

u kno nairi iz ignorant cuz she dun talk like dis

[RookieArcher]

wow. winoman !

same for me, i thought you have a brain. instead you started insulting. is this the only thing you can do when you hear something diffirent then your brain-washed facts/ideas? Someone here revealed your IDç according to him, you worked for USA propaganda machine in Kosovo. You didnt like my approach and started barking, because you know how the lies crumble down, dont you?

If we killed all Armenians, then you all are ZOMBIES, you are non-existent. If you are here, we didnt kill you, we just relocated you, from were you went to the other parts of the world.

Be a man-enough to discuss. You expect me to come out new (your description of new is "accepting your fables"), but not a single Armenian comes out with "new" approach.

Propaganda-deviser winoman,

tell me what would Kosovan people be doing now, if they were not able to return back? Serbs genocided us, killed us in this way and this way, all world withnessed it, all tvs showed, all newspapers wrote it.. etc...

come on intelligent looking brain-washed guy. come on, go on discussion, dont run away.

[winoman]

Rookiedenier -

I have nothing to discuss with you obviously. I'm not about to go on adnausuem with posts prooving the Genocide - it has been proven many times over. Since you like analogies I will offer one - If a German were to come to a Jewsish web forum and begin by posting accusations of Jewish treason and collaboration or what have you - and denying the Holocaust - well they wouldn't be given the time of day - and the insults toward the German would be far worse they I have given you. This situation is no different. I find it funny that you come here and claim to know nothing of anything but the Turkish position then attempt to tell me what occured. Educate yourself a bit first why don't you then we can talk - in the meantime I have nothing to say to you. I have already posted sufficiently in response to NothinkTurk on this issue.